this is an awesome project but i wonder if it can success
a solid colored coins implementation will succeed, will it be on our blockchain though? thats far less certain. |
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I think that it can work for some period of time but it can't last long so Anarchy won't actually work as the power must belong to one man or a small group of people otherwise it looses power losses it's attraction
You should make an argument for your position imo. |
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Impressive stuff, thanks. So, there's the answer and unsurprisingly its an obvious one, law by mutual agreement. It shouldn't be too hard to implement with online identities (in development within Bitcoin) and a p2p voting platform. Yea thats right but i think a more useful way to think about it is as law through bargaining. Everyone cant have everything they want so they just bargain it out, one party gives up something he wants in one aspect in return for getting his way on something else that the other person does not want. They could always resort to violence if they REALLY wanted to but violence is expensive not only in the act of the physical confrontation its self but to your reputation also. You see this sort of bargaining a lot in politics because politicians do not have a higher authority to appeal to inorder to solve their problems for them. (before you go ew what a terrible example i should point out that the reason it tends to lead to such bad results in that case is because they are bargaining with other peoples lives and property instead of their own so i think it still serves as a useful example and we can imagine it would be much different if they were infact bargaining with their own lives and property) *edit* it should be noted that it would be impractical for everyone to bargain with everyone so if you want to be super specific what we are talking about is collective bargaining. |
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afaik the marketplace uses AM to trade goods.
that's right. |
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so i was thinking. perhaps one way that i could avoid running afoul of the law on my nxt silver bullion gateway is to emulate a dry cleaners. dry cleaners take in cloths, issue a claim check for those cloths, alter the state of the cloths, and then return them in exchange for the claim check. for some reason unknown to me this claim check is not considered a "security" under financial regulations. Technically it should be, you can leave your cloths at the dry cleaner for an extended period of time and then sell the claim check to someone else and then that person can use the claim check to acquire your cloths, the dry cleaner claim check is a security in every sense of the word but legally it just isn't. So what ever the reason for that is, which i dont know, i can use it to my advantage by emulating that business to a t.
so lets imagine that i am a silver dry cleaners and the melting of silver shot into a bar is the analogue of dry cleaning the cloths, the silver shot is the dirty cloths, and the silver bar is the clean cloths. You buy 10 ounces of silver shot from some online retailer and set the address for delivery as a POBox of my specification. You then use your nxt address to sign the tracking number of the order and send me enough nxt to pay for the "cleaning". The "dirty" silver arrives at my shop and I issue you a claim check. After enough time has passed for me to "clean" the silver that claim check will become redeemable for silver that is now in the form of a bar. From that point on if other people want to trade that claim check amongst each other than thats none of my business. If there are legal ramifications than the onus is on them, it has nothing to do with me.
the nice thing is that there will still be a market for my claim checks but i will never under any circumstances be one of the sellers in that market. so if you want to acquire physical silver than the process will be no more complex for you. you will simply buy one of these claim checks on the market from someone other than me and then reimburse it at my nxt address. The people who deal with ordering silver shot and shipping it to my po box will be in a sense speculators trying to take advantage of arbitrage and for that service they will be affording me a level of legal protection.
one would think that since now there is a new middle man between me and the consumer that this would cause the price to be higher but i dont think this is necessarily the case because there is an advantage to be gained from outsourcing the acquisition of silver shot, a large group of people competing with each other to find cheaper supplies than the other will probably be much more effective at acquiring cheap silver shot than i could be on my own.
tell me what you guys think.
The analogy with the dry cleaners and talking about 'dirty silver', will make some people chuckle. In the UK dry cleaners are sometimes called, launderettes.  Anon, what specific reg or law are you concerned with? im worried about failing into the bailiwick of either the cftc or the sec and being subject to regulations requiring financial licensing bondage and insurance. i dont know specifically what the regulations are that i may be transgressing. i couldn't tell you what book to look in and what page to look on. sorry. |
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WTB 7 M @ 0.00004 -
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My intuition tells me I have missed the rocket ship... FML  you need an emergency injection of andreas antonopoulos. it may not be bitcoin specifically where all of the big money will be made but you have absolutely not missed the crypto (in general) rocketship. this thing is just getting started. wait until other forms of finance besides only money move onto the block chain. wait until finaincal securities move onto the block chain. wait until people blockchain crowed funding over takes kickstarter. wait until people start bootstrapping corporations. wait until we have self executing 0 counter-party risk derivatives contracts on the blockchain. jesus wait until distributed autonomous corporations. you havn't seen anything yet. Well said...Agree 100.1 ( BTC...)...oopss %... BUT...I am NOT holding my breath...for distributed autonomous GOVERNMENT(s)...Then call Jesus...  DAC's could in theory out-compete government. In a sense they could make government irrelevant. Of course not early ones, that would take a while. Well...and in practice isn't it already happening...?...even without the help of Bitcoin ...I believe "plain old cash" is just enough...  yes i am personally very optimistic about the future. the nsa stuff and the police state stuff is scary but when compared to all of the positive trends i dont think it stacks up. things are generally moving in a very positive direction imo. |
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Anon136, your proposal sounds similar to the function of the "pawn ticket" for U.S. pawnshops. I don't know under what auspices they are not classified as securities, but in effect they operate as bearer bonds for the item(s) held by the pawn shops.
I think the reason it is not classified as a security is that the pawn shop/dry cleaners dont have a fiduciary duty to redeem. For instance, if their store burns down with your clothes, I doubt you can go to the dry cleaners afterwards for a refund. So, the claim checks are not secured by anything other than the business goodwill of the shop. Kind of like an unsecured loan. Generally speaking securities tend to be fungible items, and usually pawn shop/dry cleaner claim checks are not for fungible items. The fact that you are using the claim check model for presumably fungible silver items is probably not going to make it a security, but maybe they will change the law because of you  James oh well if thats the case than its easy. i wont promise to redeem anything. ill reserve the express right no not redeem anything you send me at any time for any reason. infact i wont even say the purpose of the token is to be redeemed for silver, if you do happen to send one to me, and it does happen to result in a silver bar being delivered to your door than that's pure happenstance. you guys can just decide for yourself whether you believe that sending me one of these tokens will happen to result in a silver bar arriving at your door. It seems claim checks rely on common law, which probably predates all the securities regulations, I think they started after the 1929 crash. "Bailment is a common law term which expressly provides that though possession of the asset has been transferred the ownership remains with the transferor" Maybe the key thing is that ownership has not been transferred? I think if you own a security (like a stock) you actually own a piece of the company. Claim checks looks like they are a form of loan, all very confusing, you need to pay some lawyer lots of money to figure it all out http://sachasingh.blogspot.com.ar/2009/04/securities-collaterals-and-guarantees.htmlJames yes that is something i will do as soon as i make enough profit in the endeavor to fund it. |
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so updates for today: i have my skp file finished for my moulds and i found a plugin that allowed me to export the file as an stl. i spent today sending my stl file out to various machine shops in the area. only have 1 quote back so far, 2000 dollars but they also said that they tend to deal with bulk orders and put me in contact with a guy who does smaller orders. they feel confident that he will be able to do it for quite a bit less than 2000US. waiting on a reply back from him. if he can bring it in anywhere around 1000 than i will go ahead and give him the greenlight. then all i have to do from there is order the kiln which will be about 1000 after shipping. it'll have to sell quite a few units before i turn a profit, hopefully you guys will help me with that . Sounds very good. Will help you with that -> if you also ship to my place (Germany) international stuff is on my list of things to look into. first i have to actually get silver bars to sell before i worry about figuring out the logistics of navigating the morass of international regulations. with that said you can always buy some tokens and hold them and they will be intimately tied to the price of physical silver so if the price rises your assets will rise in very accurate parallel. could be a great option for people who live in countries where there is a huge tariff for silver imports. |
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Anon136, your proposal sounds similar to the function of the "pawn ticket" for U.S. pawnshops. I don't know under what auspices they are not classified as securities, but in effect they operate as bearer bonds for the item(s) held by the pawn shops.
I think the reason it is not classified as a security is that the pawn shop/dry cleaners dont have a fiduciary duty to redeem. For instance, if their store burns down with your clothes, I doubt you can go to the dry cleaners afterwards for a refund. So, the claim checks are not secured by anything other than the business goodwill of the shop. Kind of like an unsecured loan. Generally speaking securities tend to be fungible items, and usually pawn shop/dry cleaner claim checks are not for fungible items. The fact that you are using the claim check model for presumably fungible silver items is probably not going to make it a security, but maybe they will change the law because of you James oh well if thats the case than its easy. i wont promise to redeem anything. ill reserve the express right no not redeem anything you send me at any time for any reason. infact i wont even say the purpose of the token is to be redeemed for silver, if you do happen to send one to me, and it does happen to result in a silver bar being delivered to your door than that's pure happenstance. you guys can just decide for yourself whether you believe that sending me one of these tokens will happen to result in a silver bar arriving at your door. |
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Hi everyone!
Due to the somewhat delicate matter of this post, I just registered this account.
I am a long time customer of Silk Road (SR) and its follower (Sheep Market, Silk Road 2.0). SR made over 1.2 billion in revenues. There are several voices who claim that it was SR who made Bitcoin popular. In the last months there were several major drawbacks for these kind of markets: The Bitcoins of the vendors / customers got stolen either from hackers or the platform itself. Of course after such bad experience especially the vendors do not want to trust their funds to an anonymous platform since there are huge trust issues involved. Desperately they are looking for an alternative solution. The Asset Exchange could solve this problem for the vendors.
What they need is (beside the obvious):
1. The setup of their products must be easy
a. Description
b. If possible pictures
2. Message system
3. Easy Payment
To address the demands of the customers. The following criteria must be met:
1. Easy access
2. Ratings of the vendor
3. Message System
4. Easy Payment
Will the NXT AE be ready for that?
Needless to say if this is working there mustn’t be a lot of marketing and new investors / vendors / customers would naturally come into NXT. Result would be full order books and a price explosion.
please dont do this on our blockchain. the last thing i want is the feds breathing down my neck. the code is open source go fork it and make SilkRoadCoin. but in answer to your question, technically, yes, a blockchain could be used to solve these problems. not asset exchange though. thats not what asset exchange is for. its for trading homogeneous resources not heterogeneous resources. "weed" for example is heterogeneous so weed colored tokens wouldn't work well in the asset exchange. what you want to do is outline a protocol for interpreting arbitrary messages in a way that is relevant to running a marketplace not an asset exchange. Anon, could you explain what you mean by homogenous/ heterogeneous and explain the difference when it comes to functionality of the AE? sure so i am talking about fungibility. should have been more specific. Fungibility is the property of a good or a commodity whose individual units are capable of mutual substitution. For example, since one ounce of gold is equivalent to any other ounce of gold, gold is fungible. the asset exchange lends its self to fungible assets. ounces of weed are typically not very fungible. OK. Basically, what you are saying is that the AE is not set up to sell things as singular assets; You can't sell 57 Chevies, Rare Collectables, art work, ETC. Is it a characteristic of the AE programing that sets this limit, or is this usage limitation designed to reduce and control the number of assets that can be listed on the AE for the sake of organization? well its not that you cant. technically you could issue 1 asset for many different 57 chevies but then customers would be weary of using it since they wouldnt know exactly what they were getting for their money. meaning they would tend to only be willing to bid the value of a 57 chevie in the worst condition imaginable. meaning it would be a terrible way to sell a 57 chevie in decent condition and would tend to end up representing only the crummiest ones because there is some heterogeneity in 57 chevies that are only worth their weight in scrap. or you could issue 1 asset for each 57 chevie but it would be a huge waste of resources. cfb is working on a blockchain marketplace, that would be the place to sell 57 chevies. it could be very useful for chevrolette corporation to issue 10000 units of 1 asset that represents brand new 2014 chevies though. that would make a lot of sense. it would even allow them to get a better idea of what the market clearing price is for their product in a way that they cant get with guessing and then shipping them out to dealerships with a price tag that represents that guess. |
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My intuition tells me I have missed the rocket ship... FML you need an emergency injection of andreas antonopoulos. it may not be bitcoin specifically where all of the big money will be made but you have absolutely not missed the crypto (in general) rocketship. this thing is just getting started. wait until other forms of finance besides only money move onto the block chain. wait until finaincal securities move onto the block chain. wait until people blockchain crowed funding over takes kickstarter. wait until people start bootstrapping corporations. wait until we have self executing 0 counter-party risk derivatives contracts on the blockchain. jesus wait until distributed autonomous corporations. you havn't seen anything yet. Well said...Agree 100.1 ( BTC...)...oopss %... BUT...I am NOT holding my breath...for distributed autonomous GOVERNMENT(s)...Then call Jesus... DAC's could in theory out-compete government. In a sense they could make government irrelevant. Of course not early ones, that would take a while. |
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so i was thinking. perhaps one way that i could avoid running afoul of the law on my nxt silver bullion gateway is to emulate a dry cleaners. dry cleaners take in cloths, issue a claim check for those cloths, alter the state of the cloths, and then return them in exchange for the claim check. for some reason unknown to me this claim check is not considered a "security" under financial regulations. Technically it should be, you can leave your cloths at the dry cleaner for an extended period of time and then sell the claim check to someone else and then that person can use the claim check to acquire your cloths, the dry cleaner claim check is a security in every sense of the word but legally it just isn't. So what ever the reason for that is, which i dont know, i can use it to my advantage by emulating that business to a t.
so lets imagine that i am a silver dry cleaners and the melting of silver shot into a bar is the analogue of dry cleaning the cloths, the silver shot is the dirty cloths, and the silver bar is the clean cloths. You buy 10 ounces of silver shot from some online retailer and set the address for delivery as a POBox of my specification. You then use your nxt address to sign the tracking number of the order and send me enough nxt to pay for the "cleaning". The "dirty" silver arrives at my shop and I issue you a claim check. After enough time has passed for me to "clean" the silver that claim check will become redeemable for silver that is now in the form of a bar. From that point on if other people want to trade that claim check amongst each other than thats none of my business. If there are legal ramifications than the onus is on them, it has nothing to do with me.
the nice thing is that there will still be a market for my claim checks but i will never under any circumstances be one of the sellers in that market. so if you want to acquire physical silver than the process will be no more complex for you. you will simply buy one of these claim checks on the market from someone other than me and then reimburse it at my nxt address. The people who deal with ordering silver shot and shipping it to my po box will be in a sense speculators trying to take advantage of arbitrage and for that service they will be affording me a level of legal protection.
one would think that since now there is a new middle man between me and the consumer that this would cause the price to be higher but i dont think this is necessarily the case because there is an advantage to be gained from outsourcing the acquisition of silver shot, a large group of people competing with each other to find cheaper supplies than the other will probably be much more effective at acquiring cheap silver shot than i could be on my own.
tell me what you guys think. ill post this in my silver bullion thread also so if you are seeing this message any later than say a half hour after it was posted than it will probably be better to reply to it there.
and maybe stop using the laundry analogy  rofl! |
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I'm still confused at the differing collectible prices in buying bullion. I mean, they are assayed at ounces for their market price, but then they vary in value up to almost 100% in the case of silver coins. I guess there is the numismatic value in the case of Govt issued coins, and that must carry over to recognized "brands", offering quality, security, and beauty. I assume that AnonBullion will be sold at a few points over spot, and trade at whatever it can be carried. The rareness will make it valuable in some circles. Do you have any plans to issue numbered certificates with them? this could be a real plus for the value. All this said, do you have a pre sale list? I'd like to get on it when i get around to advanced security i have some ideas. i want to put something like a "fingerprint" on the reverse of the bar. it will be very lightly engraved completely random pattern of intersecting ridges and valies + reference markers. a person wishing to authenticate the bar will use the same technique as finerprint analyses. you will pull up a reference photo from the internet. pick a random point on the bar and on the picture, and take note of the pattern formed by the intersections of ridges. then compare the reference photo to the bar. the engraving will be light enough that anyone wishing to take a cast of it will not be able to copy the pattern and it would not be economical to replicate it any other way. *edit* remember inorder to protect against fraud you dont have to make it imposable, you only have to make sure that you are not the lowest hanging fruit because fraudsters will always go after the lowest hanging fruit first. as far as numbered certificates go. if i do something like that then they will be stored on the blockchain and a cautious buyer will refuse to purchase any bar that the seller can not also provide a certificate on the blockchain for. upon the transaction the seller will transfer the certificate from his account to the account of the buyer over the blockchain. this however does not protect the buyer from making a copy of the bar with a copper core and then transferring the fake bar with the certificate while keeping the real bar with no certificate for himself. |
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Anon136, This operation is the oldest running in Washington State, if I am not mistaken. They do custom jobs. Northwest Territorial Mint. http://www.nwtmint.com/if my experiment works than my prices will blow them out of the water. they will not be able to compete . if it doesn't than yea contingency plan mb. |
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Just think one Asteroid with the diameter one kilometer. Can provide all the world iron production for a year, all the world production for gold and silver for 10 years. All platinum production for a thousand years. And this only for a small asteroid and there are more than 750k other asteriods with same size other even called dwarf planet.
Such an asteroid striking the earth would be equivalent to 1000 hydrogen bombs. Good luck mining the debris from the impact. They will not catch bring the asteriod near to earth. I think they will mine on the location and only bring back the ores. That would be prohibitively expensive in energy and in money. what you need to do is attach thrusters to the asteroid on one of its closer passes by earth, then while it is making its journey around the solar system and back again you use the thrusters to gently "nudge" it in such a manner that on its next close pass by you can lasso it in earths gravity. then you fracture it into bits with explosives or something and rain those bits down over your giant desert property to be collected by a sand sifting harvester. would this be prohibitively expensive? maybe but also maybe not, all of the gold on planet earth is pretty damn valuable. Not gonna work, that is very dangerous. Do you want create a meteor shower? When the big chunks reach the ground those will create big craters. Many civilian would die on the process. The chunks would scatter thousands of miles on the ground and would be very hard to control. yea i dont think you understand how meteors work. no offense i mean everyone cant know about everything there are a lot of things i dont know much about so please dont take it personally. only very very large meteors actually survive the atmosphere long enough to actually impact the ground. also we obviously arnt talking about sticking the worlds largest nuke at the center of the asteroid and blasting it into a thousand random uncontrolled pieces. we are talking about fracturing it at key points with controlled explosions and then guiding these pieces to the intended destination with means other than explosions. please dont tell me that something is totally imposable simply for your own lack of imagination. it may be imposable, im not going to argue that it isnt. but please dont pretend that you know that this is the case. neither of us knows for sure one way or the other. You have a unique idea . I never read anything like that until now. Hope they don't crash the asteroid near me. yea as far as i know its my idea. i have no idea if it will ever be done. if i had to guess than id say it probably wont. but the chance that it would was enough to be the tipping point and sell some of my physical and buy crypto. just in case ya know, i wanted to be the first person to begin pricing it in (always better to start pricing something into the market before everyone else if possible). man what a great decision that was. |
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there might also be the no one knows game of selling to a Pawn shop if they just "looked right"
They could just say, oh 10oz silver, yeah sure our spot price is X, here you go...
yep i think thats probably right. my method is experimental. according to new liberty im venturing into completely uncharted territory. however if it works out the way we hope than it will be a very professional looking product. its not going to look at all like it came out of some guys garage (even though it did) |
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so updates for today: i have my skp file finished for my moulds and i found a plugin that allowed me to export the file as an stl. i spent today sending my stl file out to various machine shops in the area. only have 1 quote back so far, 2000 dollars but they also said that they tend to deal with bulk orders and put me in contact with a guy who does smaller orders. they feel confident that he will be able to do it for quite a bit less than 2000US. waiting on a reply back from him. if he can bring it in anywhere around 1000 than i will go ahead and give him the greenlight. then all i have to do from there is order the kiln which will be about 1000 after shipping. it'll have to sell quite a few units before i turn a profit, hopefully you guys will help me with that . |
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Anon136, your proposal sounds similar to the function of the "pawn ticket" for U.S. pawnshops. I don't know under what auspices they are not classified as securities, but in effect they operate as bearer bonds for the item(s) held by the pawn shops.
another valid example. its the same thing basically. i dont know if this is enough of a legal shield to keep me in business, but IF they decide that what im doing is illegal, its probably enough of a shield to grant me a cease and desist warning rather than a black bag in the middle of the night. Man I fear the black bag.. But that said, What is the precedent for issuing private label bullion? I know all the other companies that do are in effect private labels, but what happens when someone wants to sell some Anon136 10oz bars to a dealer, or even a pawn shop? Are they going to look at it as bullion? or bulk silver? There is a price difference right? If all goes well than they will be a very high quality product. perhaps they may not be accepted as coming from a legit dealer immediately but hopefully it wont take too long before my brand builds up reputation. really though if you want to turn them into cash than the best way would be to send them to me in exchange for claim checks, sell the claim checks on the asset exchange and then cash the nxt out at a USD gateway. Duh. You're so right, Obviously the strongest market is the already established one. I for one would hope and support your bullion becoming accepted and legit. Sellers would always have to remember that selling to the first bidder in a time of need will almost always get you lesser value, and pawn shop buyers are playing this arbitrage game. wouldnt it be cool to walk into a pawn shop and see one of my own bars though! |
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