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3261  Other / Off-topic / Re: Scientific proof that God exists? on: December 28, 2017, 01:19:47 AM
1) Everything has a cause.

2) The Universe began to exist.

3) Therefore, the Universe has a cause.

4) Conclusion: Therefore the cause behind the existence of the Universe was God

1A) Firstly this is just an appeal to intuition and intuition isn't always a pure pathway to truth (i.e. - intuition states that the Sun goes around the Earth). There may indeed always be a cause for anything and everything that has or ever will come into existence, including whatever came into existence at the Big Bang event (the postulated beginning of our Universe), but that cause isn't always evident. Some quantum physicists would in fact claim that there are uncaused things (i.e. - radioactivity).

1B) Whatever cause in itself that has come into existence has, IMHO, thus resulted from a previous cause, which had a previous cause which had a previous cause and that chain can be extended as far back as you wish. Stated another way, there is no such thing as a First Cause.

1C) Whatever thing that came into existence came into existence from a previous thing(s) which existed and which in turn came into existence from a previous thing(s) which in turn came into existence from yet a previous thing and so on as far back as you wish to go. Stated another way, you can only bring something into existence from a previous something. You cannot bring a material something into existence from pure nothingness or from anything immaterial.

2) Premise: The Universe began to exist.

2A) I need note here that the "Universe" is defined as the sum total of all the bits and pieces that collectively make up the, or our, "Universe". The "Universe" is just the label we give to all of those bits and pieces (particles, atoms, molecules, dust, rocks, planets, stars, etc.) that came into existence in-the-beginning or later emerged into existence out of simpler states (i.e. – molecules from atoms).

2B) The assumption here is that our Universe is the be-all-and-end-all of the Cosmos**. While that may be the case, it's not necessarily so. Just because you came into existence doesn't mean that others don't also exist. Our Universe could be one of many. There could be parallel universes or even a postulated Multiverse or Megaverse - maybe.

3) Conclusion: Therefore, the Universe has a cause.

3A) The effect (resulting from the cause) of the Universe coming into existence or coming into being is called the Big Bang event, so the cause of the Universe (i.e. - the cause of the Big Bang event) was something prior to the Big Bang event. If the Universe had a cause then that cause was obviously pre-Universe or before the Big Bang event.

3B) That's where the cosmological buck has to stop since we can't observe or measure anything prior to the Big Bang event.

3C) In context all we can say is that our Universe came into existence at the moment of the Big Bang event and that the Big Bang event had a cause. That says nothing about the larger context as suggested in 2B. It could be that our Universe popped into existence from within a larger Cosmos just like a baby pops out of the womb at birth.

4) Conclusion: Therefore the cause behind the existence of the Universe was God.

4A) Nearly all theists state that the cause of the Universe was due to an omnipresent (all-present), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful), all-loving, perfectly moral, and perfectly benevolent Almighty Being (i.e. - God). However these traits along with an entity who is itself uncaused, beginning-less, changeless, eternal, timeless, and space-less; an immaterial all powerful being who is a personal agent, endowed with freedom of the will, aren't verified; aren't all mutually inclusive and logical, with many an inherent philosophical inconsistency as well as many being actually contradicted by Biblical chapter-and-verse passages (i.e. - God is hardly all-loving).

4B) But a supernatural deity with some or all of these traits is also a total fallacy even if for no other reason than that the Cosmos has to be eternal (temporally infinite) since as I noted above there can be no First Cause and because you can't, and not even God can, create something material from the immaterial. It's a logical contradiction to postulate the creation / existence of an absolute something from an absolute state of pure nothingness and even God has to conform to logic (i.e. - God can't create a spherical cube). If you can't create something from nothing then something has always existed. If the Cosmos is infinite or endlessly cyclic, an infinitely repeating causal loop where A causes B and B in turn causes A, then what need for a God? If therefore, as theists want, that the Cosmos is finite since infinities aren't possible (i.e. - they tend to throw spanners into theistic philosophies - see 4D), then God too is temporally finite, therefore had a beginning and therefore had a cause. That of course contradicts the concept of an eternal deity and raises the obvious question, what caused God? If God is eternal then God created the Cosmos and our Universe an infinite time ago which is clearly not the case.

4C) Since science can't explain or actually identify the "cause" that caused the existence of our Universe, on the grounds that the cause preceded the Big Bang event and thus this cause can't be observed or measured, theists step into the gap and conclude that God is that cause. This God-of-the-gaps conclusion is also a fallacy since there are numerous other alternatives. The cause of the Universe could have been the Flying Spaghetti Monster or any deity or deities from any of the world's hundreds of creation mythologies. Maybe it was just a natural Big Crunch (a contracting universe) turning inside out at crunch time into a Big Bang; maybe an unknown and perhaps unknowable other natural cause we haven’t imagined yet; perhaps a quantum fluctuation; even perhaps (and this is my bias) a mortal, fallible, flesh-and-blood computer / software programmer fills the gap. God is only one hypothesis of many.

4D) Theists, even some cosmologists mistakenly say that there can't be an infinite Cosmos due to entropy (the state of useable energy available). An infinite Cosmos would have attained a state of maximum entropy an infinite time ago but that is not what we observe. I contend that at the moment of the Big Bang the clock was reset to time equals zero; the Universe was restored to original factory settings (including a state of minimum entropy). Consider this analogy. You only started ageing, started running down, and started increasing your entropy, at your conception. That's when your clock started. That state of conception was your original factory condition. What came before was irrelevant since as far as you are concerned, there was no before (although clearly there was). You had a cause therefore there was a state that existed before you. That cause was your parents and their state of entropy is an irrelevance as far as you (their child) is concerned at conception.
3262  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Evolution is a hoax on: December 28, 2017, 01:15:10 AM
Whatever caused the universe, caused everything.

This means that everything has a cause.

Random mutations in evolution are mutations without causes. If they had causes, they wouldn't be random.

Because of cause, there is no randomness, even though we often think that there is, because our abilities are too weak to determine the cause.

Evolution doesn't exist.

Any good scientists understands the points of this post, yet many of them still promote evolution.

Evolution is a hoax.

Cool

And what happens to the cause of the cause of the universe?

IF the cause has a cause or not, questions about it are way beyond the scope of evolution being a hoax or not. Can you show what this has to do with evolution, considering that evolution theory doesn't really go this deep?

Evolution is a hoax.

Cool

You are the one who said evolution is not true because everything has a cause, which you cannot prove, so if everything doesn't have a cause, by your own logic you should admit evolution is real, no?

Since you believe everything has at least big bang as its cause, you are at odds with yourself when you attempt to believe evolution is real at the same time. Sounds like religion in the craziest form. Cheesy

Evolution is a hoax.

Cool

The big bang is not a sentient being nor a programmer, so if you agree that the big bang created the universe, then evolution should be perfectly real.

If BB is real, then evolution is not. They don't match each other's dynamics.

Cool

There is literally no one that has ever argued that, no one but you. How does bb contradict evolution?


What? No reply? How can that be? Unbelievable.


Okay. Okay. Just for you guys.

Let's forget for a moment that there are at least 3 BB theories, none of which works with, or could fit into, a universe caused by any of the others. Let's make believe that BB is true and factual.

In this scenario - BB is real - what is there that is not caused by the BB? The universe encompasses everything that exists, right? So, if BB caused the universe, then BB caused everything that exists, right? This means that everything has at least BB as its cause, if not some other thing that BB caused. BB is silly enough all by itself. It doesn't need somebody entering non-caused effects into it. Doing that would completely blow BB out of the theory waters, and sink it out of sight... bye-bye BB.

So, since BB caused everything (in our imaginary scenario, here), how can there be random mutations? We call evolution mutations random, because the whole idea is that they don't have a cause. But that can't be. It flies in the face of BB having caused everything. If this is our thinking, then one of them is wrong... BB or evolution.

But if we call evolution mutations random, knowing that they are not spontaneous, but rather because we don't understand the cause(s), then the whole of evolution theory has to be tweaked big time to change the wording of the random mutations to something programmed in by BB - or programmed by something that came before BB. This programming is shown by cause and effect acting according to the laws of physics.

So, which of the two do you want?
1. BB and evolution are mutually exclusive, so let's throw both of them out, or;
2. Throw evolution out because in reality, it can't match its theory.

A third possibility is to postulate a new BB theory, where BB has caused the universe to constantly spout spontaneous "stuff" so that something might produce real random mutations... just so that current evolution theory might fit.

Any way we turn with this, the whole thing is so messed up that we might as well throw the whole thing out and start over. All of this shows two major things:
1. We don't really have a handle on what is going on in the universe, including evolution;
2. The idea of God is starting to look more attractive, even without the proof that He exists.

What if nobody said this stuff before? Does it make sense or not? Are you going to hang onto being mixed up because you have religious loyalty? Because science doesn't have it. I just showed why?

This is an evolution topic. If it were a BB and evolution topic, then we could say that both BB and evolution were hoaxes. But since it is only an evolution topic, all we can say is...

Evolution is a hoax.

Cool

Let me just start again for our friend badecker and his delusion. First of all there's no such thing as a law of cause and effect. There may indeed always be a cause for anything and everything that has or ever will come into existence, including whatever came into existence at the Big Bang event , but that cause isn't always evident. Some quantum physicists would in fact claim that there are uncaused things like radioactive decay, which I told you 20 times about. Our Universe could be one of many. There could be parallel universes or even a postulated Multiverse or Megaverse.

The cause of the Big Bang event was something prior to the Big Bang event. If the Universe had a cause then that cause was obviously pre-Universe or before the Big Bang event. We can't observe or measure anything prior to the Big Bang event. It could be that our Universe popped into existence from within a larger Cosmos. If you argue that ''god'' created the universe and he doesn't need a cause then you are essentially proving my point, you are proving that there are things without a cause and if god has no cause then it means everything is random.

And what if a large number of uncaused causes caused the universe?
3263  Other / Off-topic / Re: Scientific proof that God exists? on: December 28, 2017, 12:51:03 AM
Oh come on! Now that we know that God exists because of:

- big bang theory shows that everything has a cause, but isn't complete enough to show that BB even exists, and

- entropy shows that there was a beginning, because there wouldn't be any complexity left if entropy had always existed, and

- the greatness of complexity shows by comparison with the simplicity that can be found, that it is designed

Isn't anybody going to refute the fact that God exists... refute it scientifically, that is?

Cool

How does the big bang theory show that everything has a cause? Nowhere in the big bang theory is stated that everything has a cause.

'' the greatness of complexity shows by comparison with the simplicity that can be found, that it is designed'' The greatness of complexity? By comparing it with simplicity it's designed? You are not making sense badecker.

Your point is well taken. BB doesn't even deserve to have a theory, since its theory was caused by people.

Machines have makers.

Cool

Prove it, prove that all machines have makers.

When I was a kid, and went to the high school - and even grade school - basketball games, I always became embarrassed when the opposing team was losing by a big margin.

You know? Maybe we should hang this up. I'm becoming embarrassed for you Embarrassed

 Grin

That's not really proving it, just like you can't prove that all things have causes yet you still claim these things.

The guys were watching a ball game rerun. I butted in and asked if they had any ideas how to respond to Astargath. One of them said, "Regarding what?" I said, "Regarding what Astargath posted in the forum. They reluctantly ambled over to the computer, eyes glancing back at the TV. I pointed to where you said, "prove that all machines have makers." They looked at each other for a moment, and then laughed their heads off. I said, "Come on, guys. I don't want to embarrass him. He's serious." They roared until the apartment shook. I'll have to reply to you later. Laughter is catching, you know.

Cool

Seems like a classic tactic when you are losing the argument but your delusion is too strong to accept it Wink
3264  Other / Off-topic / Re: Scientific proof that God exists? on: December 28, 2017, 12:04:35 AM
Oh come on! Now that we know that God exists because of:

- big bang theory shows that everything has a cause, but isn't complete enough to show that BB even exists, and

- entropy shows that there was a beginning, because there wouldn't be any complexity left if entropy had always existed, and

- the greatness of complexity shows by comparison with the simplicity that can be found, that it is designed

Isn't anybody going to refute the fact that God exists... refute it scientifically, that is?

Cool

How does the big bang theory show that everything has a cause? Nowhere in the big bang theory is stated that everything has a cause.

'' the greatness of complexity shows by comparison with the simplicity that can be found, that it is designed'' The greatness of complexity? By comparing it with simplicity it's designed? You are not making sense badecker.

Your point is well taken. BB doesn't even deserve to have a theory, since its theory was caused by people.

Machines have makers.

Cool

Prove it, prove that all machines have makers.

When I was a kid, and went to the high school - and even grade school - basketball games, I always became embarrassed when the opposing team was losing by a big margin.

You know? Maybe we should hang this up. I'm becoming embarrassed for you Embarrassed

 Grin

That's not really proving it, just like you can't prove that all things have causes yet you still claim these things.
3265  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Evolution is a hoax on: December 27, 2017, 09:47:41 PM
Whatever caused the universe, caused everything.

This means that everything has a cause.

Random mutations in evolution are mutations without causes. If they had causes, they wouldn't be random.

Because of cause, there is no randomness, even though we often think that there is, because our abilities are too weak to determine the cause.

Evolution doesn't exist.

Any good scientists understands the points of this post, yet many of them still promote evolution.

Evolution is a hoax.

Cool

And what happens to the cause of the cause of the universe?

IF the cause has a cause or not, questions about it are way beyond the scope of evolution being a hoax or not. Can you show what this has to do with evolution, considering that evolution theory doesn't really go this deep?

Evolution is a hoax.

Cool

You are the one who said evolution is not true because everything has a cause, which you cannot prove, so if everything doesn't have a cause, by your own logic you should admit evolution is real, no?

Since you believe everything has at least big bang as its cause, you are at odds with yourself when you attempt to believe evolution is real at the same time. Sounds like religion in the craziest form. Cheesy

Evolution is a hoax.

Cool

The big bang is not a sentient being nor a programmer, so if you agree that the big bang created the universe, then evolution should be perfectly real.

If BB is real, then evolution is not. They don't match each other's dynamics.

Cool

There is literally no one that has ever argued that, no one but you. How does bb contradict evolution?
3266  Other / Off-topic / Re: Scientific proof that God exists? on: December 27, 2017, 09:47:03 PM
Oh come on! Now that we know that God exists because of:

- big bang theory shows that everything has a cause, but isn't complete enough to show that BB even exists, and

- entropy shows that there was a beginning, because there wouldn't be any complexity left if entropy had always existed, and

- the greatness of complexity shows by comparison with the simplicity that can be found, that it is designed

Isn't anybody going to refute the fact that God exists... refute it scientifically, that is?

Cool

How does the big bang theory show that everything has a cause? Nowhere in the big bang theory is stated that everything has a cause.

'' the greatness of complexity shows by comparison with the simplicity that can be found, that it is designed'' The greatness of complexity? By comparing it with simplicity it's designed? You are not making sense badecker.

Your point is well taken. BB doesn't even deserve to have a theory, since its theory was caused by people.

Machines have makers.

Cool

Prove it, prove that all machines have makers.
3267  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Evolution is a hoax on: December 27, 2017, 09:07:27 PM
Whatever caused the universe, caused everything.

This means that everything has a cause.

Random mutations in evolution are mutations without causes. If they had causes, they wouldn't be random.

Because of cause, there is no randomness, even though we often think that there is, because our abilities are too weak to determine the cause.

Evolution doesn't exist.

Any good scientists understands the points of this post, yet many of them still promote evolution.

Evolution is a hoax.

Cool

And what happens to the cause of the cause of the universe?

IF the cause has a cause or not, questions about it are way beyond the scope of evolution being a hoax or not. Can you show what this has to do with evolution, considering that evolution theory doesn't really go this deep?

Evolution is a hoax.

Cool

You are the one who said evolution is not true because everything has a cause, which you cannot prove, so if everything doesn't have a cause, by your own logic you should admit evolution is real, no?

Since you believe everything has at least big bang as its cause, you are at odds with yourself when you attempt to believe evolution is real at the same time. Sounds like religion in the craziest form. Cheesy

Evolution is a hoax.

Cool

The big bang is not a sentient being nor a programmer, so if you agree that the big bang created the universe, then evolution should be perfectly real.
3268  Other / Off-topic / Re: Scientific proof that God exists? on: December 27, 2017, 09:06:34 PM
Oh come on! Now that we know that God exists because of:

- big bang theory shows that everything has a cause, but isn't complete enough to show that BB even exists, and

- entropy shows that there was a beginning, because there wouldn't be any complexity left if entropy had always existed, and

- the greatness of complexity shows by comparison with the simplicity that can be found, that it is designed

Isn't anybody going to refute the fact that God exists... refute it scientifically, that is?

Cool

How does the big bang theory show that everything has a cause? Nowhere in the big bang theory is stated that everything has a cause.

'' the greatness of complexity shows by comparison with the simplicity that can be found, that it is designed'' The greatness of complexity? By comparing it with simplicity it's designed? You are not making sense badecker.
3269  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Evolution is a hoax on: December 27, 2017, 08:31:45 PM
Whatever caused the universe, caused everything.

This means that everything has a cause.

Random mutations in evolution are mutations without causes. If they had causes, they wouldn't be random.

Because of cause, there is no randomness, even though we often think that there is, because our abilities are too weak to determine the cause.

Evolution doesn't exist.

Any good scientists understands the points of this post, yet many of them still promote evolution.

Evolution is a hoax.

Cool

And what happens to the cause of the cause of the universe?

IF the cause has a cause or not, questions about it are way beyond the scope of evolution being a hoax or not. Can you show what this has to do with evolution, considering that evolution theory doesn't really go this deep?

Evolution is a hoax.

Cool

You are the one who said evolution is not true because everything has a cause, which you cannot prove, so if everything doesn't have a cause, by your own logic you should admit evolution is real, no?
3270  Other / Off-topic / Re: Flat Earth on: December 27, 2017, 06:06:16 PM
Rounded Earth is known since ancient Greeks. They used to compare the shadows of sticks in different locations. When the sun was directly overhead in one place, the stick there cast no shadow. At the same time in a city around 500 miles north, the stick there did cast a shadow.

If the Earth were flat then both sticks should show the same shadow (or lack of) because they would be positioned at the same angle towards the sun. The ancient Greeks found the shadows were different because the Earth was curved and so the sticks were at different angles. They then used the difference in these angles to calculate the circumference of the Earth.

False, the Earth is a flat motionless plane with a small and close Sun



https://flatearthinsanity.blogspot.com.es/2016/07/flat-earth-follies-crepuscular-rays.html

I think this link explains very easily, yes even for your brain, what crepuscular rays are.
3271  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Evolution is a hoax on: December 27, 2017, 06:00:11 PM
Whatever caused the universe, caused everything.

This means that everything has a cause.

Random mutations in evolution are mutations without causes. If they had causes, they wouldn't be random.

Because of cause, there is no randomness, even though we often think that there is, because our abilities are too weak to determine the cause.

Evolution doesn't exist.

Any good scientists understands the points of this post, yet many of them still promote evolution.

Evolution is a hoax.

Cool

And what happens to the cause of the cause of the universe?
3272  Economy / Exchanges / Cex.io Withdrawals to visa question. on: December 27, 2017, 03:17:03 PM
So I believe they just added this: https://blog.cex.io/news/visa-withdrawals-16897

I'm a bit confused, though. It says that ''Please note for new added Visa cards withdrawals can be in USD only so far.'' So when will someone be able to withdraw euros for example after he verified his card?
3273  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Evolution is a hoax on: December 27, 2017, 02:42:09 PM

''
Except that I showed the proof of it, that cause and effect is universal in everything. I'll say it again.'' Where have you shown this?Huh??
''Everything has motion. Even if absolute zero were found somewhere, everything has motion in its subatomic particles or wave (electromagnetic) movement. Can there even be a logical theory for something without motion?'' But  what you have to prove is that all the motion has a cause and you can't, why are you repeating the same stuff again? You can't prove that everything has a cause, period.

Again, I don't have to prove that all motion has a cause. Newton did it in his 3rd Law. You might have to think about it to understand it, but a good, simple explanation is listed here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1917510.msg26961799#msg26961799. You even quoted it, above. Didn't you read it?

Cool

I'm starting to believe that you are trolling me now. Newton did not prove or said that everything has a cause, motion =/= cause. Where does it say that everything has a cause, quote it, give me the evidence or just shut the fuck up already.

As I said. Newton said "action" and "reaction." Show me some action or reaction that isn't motion of some kind. Show me something that doesn't have motion. All motion is reaction with at least one action that caused it. All motion is effect caused by at least one caused.

However, even big bang that you believe in is purportedly the cause of everything. So the whole universe is a cause and effect operation, according to what you believe.

Why do you attempt to contradict yourself like this?

Cool

No, he said, for every action, meaning that if there is an action there is a reaction. What does motion have to do with cause? I already told you quantum processes which are motions seem to have no cause, maybe they do but right now the consensus is that they don't. Do you realize you keep saying the same thing? Newton's 3rd law does not prove that everything has a cause, period.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg26997067#msg26997067

And action is the cause of the reaction, which is the effect of the action. You are picking at straws. You are using semantics.

Motions, actions, and causes are all related. Sometimes they are similar. Sometimes they are exactly the same. But never do they fall outside of each other entirely. Look them up in the dictionaries and encyclopedias.

Notice that you said, "I already told you quantum processes which are motions seem to have no cause." You show a lot of things that are your own shows, only. The basic, standard understanding of "quantum mechanics" has to do with the uncertainty principle. That's probability. In other words it is guestimations, if not downright guesses. In other words, it is not known to be factual.

Newton's 3rd Law might not say that everything has a cause, but there is nothing that doesn't have a cause. Didn't I already tell you that as you believe in Big Bang Theory, you are actually believing that everything has, at least, the BB cause?... if not many other causes?

If there were a chance that some part of evolution theory could fall into the category of evolution reality, it would be so small as to be outside of anything that science would accept as a possibility.

Cool

''Newton's 3rd Law might not say that everything has a cause, but there is nothing that doesn't have a cause.'' Good, we got rid of newton's 3rd law, I'm making progress. Now how do you know that there isn't something that doesn't have a cause? Do you know the cause of all the things in the universe? No, you don't, you are just claiming for no reason that everything has a cause which is a debate among scientists, philosophers and many more, no one really knows and yet you are still here claiming that you do, why are you doing this?

You know the cause of all things in the universe. It is big bang for you.

God is the real cause of all things in the universe, and even of the universe itself.

We didn't get rid of Newton's 3rd Law. It's all over the place. You simply can't see the 3rd Law forest for the trees.

One hundred percent cause all over the place. No random mutations as expressed by evolution theory.

No evolution. Evolution is a hoax.

Cool

EDIT: You're getting worse than Vod. At least Vod is constant. Oops! So are you. You constantly contradict yourself, and then pass the contradiction right by.

No one knows what caused the big bang, though. it is essentially impossible to ask a scientific question about what is external to the Universe, whether spatially or temporally (assuming either is even possible).

It is possible that if there are additional dimensions and mutliple universes that interact with the 4 traditional dimensions, then we may eventually be able to learn of things that were once external to the Universe. However, such ideas are currently not testable. You are the only person who is claiming to know what's outside the universe. You are also the only one claiming that everything has a cause, I repeat, do you know the cause of everything? You don't.
3274  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Evolution is a hoax on: December 27, 2017, 09:33:21 AM

''
Except that I showed the proof of it, that cause and effect is universal in everything. I'll say it again.'' Where have you shown this?Huh??
''Everything has motion. Even if absolute zero were found somewhere, everything has motion in its subatomic particles or wave (electromagnetic) movement. Can there even be a logical theory for something without motion?'' But  what you have to prove is that all the motion has a cause and you can't, why are you repeating the same stuff again? You can't prove that everything has a cause, period.

Again, I don't have to prove that all motion has a cause. Newton did it in his 3rd Law. You might have to think about it to understand it, but a good, simple explanation is listed here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1917510.msg26961799#msg26961799. You even quoted it, above. Didn't you read it?

Cool

I'm starting to believe that you are trolling me now. Newton did not prove or said that everything has a cause, motion =/= cause. Where does it say that everything has a cause, quote it, give me the evidence or just shut the fuck up already.

As I said. Newton said "action" and "reaction." Show me some action or reaction that isn't motion of some kind. Show me something that doesn't have motion. All motion is reaction with at least one action that caused it. All motion is effect caused by at least one caused.

However, even big bang that you believe in is purportedly the cause of everything. So the whole universe is a cause and effect operation, according to what you believe.

Why do you attempt to contradict yourself like this?

Cool

No, he said, for every action, meaning that if there is an action there is a reaction. What does motion have to do with cause? I already told you quantum processes which are motions seem to have no cause, maybe they do but right now the consensus is that they don't. Do you realize you keep saying the same thing? Newton's 3rd law does not prove that everything has a cause, period.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg26997067#msg26997067

And action is the cause of the reaction, which is the effect of the action. You are picking at straws. You are using semantics.

Motions, actions, and causes are all related. Sometimes they are similar. Sometimes they are exactly the same. But never do they fall outside of each other entirely. Look them up in the dictionaries and encyclopedias.

Notice that you said, "I already told you quantum processes which are motions seem to have no cause." You show a lot of things that are your own shows, only. The basic, standard understanding of "quantum mechanics" has to do with the uncertainty principle. That's probability. In other words it is guestimations, if not downright guesses. In other words, it is not known to be factual.

Newton's 3rd Law might not say that everything has a cause, but there is nothing that doesn't have a cause. Didn't I already tell you that as you believe in Big Bang Theory, you are actually believing that everything has, at least, the BB cause?... if not many other causes?

If there were a chance that some part of evolution theory could fall into the category of evolution reality, it would be so small as to be outside of anything that science would accept as a possibility.

Cool

''Newton's 3rd Law might not say that everything has a cause, but there is nothing that doesn't have a cause.'' Good, we got rid of newton's 3rd law, I'm making progress. Now how do you know that there isn't something that doesn't have a cause? Do you know the cause of all the things in the universe? No, you don't, you are just claiming for no reason that everything has a cause which is a debate among scientists, philosophers and many more, no one really knows and yet you are still here claiming that you do, why are you doing this?
3275  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Evolution is a hoax on: December 26, 2017, 09:23:41 PM

''
Except that I showed the proof of it, that cause and effect is universal in everything. I'll say it again.'' Where have you shown this?Huh??
''Everything has motion. Even if absolute zero were found somewhere, everything has motion in its subatomic particles or wave (electromagnetic) movement. Can there even be a logical theory for something without motion?'' But  what you have to prove is that all the motion has a cause and you can't, why are you repeating the same stuff again? You can't prove that everything has a cause, period.

Again, I don't have to prove that all motion has a cause. Newton did it in his 3rd Law. You might have to think about it to understand it, but a good, simple explanation is listed here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1917510.msg26961799#msg26961799. You even quoted it, above. Didn't you read it?

Cool

I'm starting to believe that you are trolling me now. Newton did not prove or said that everything has a cause, motion =/= cause. Where does it say that everything has a cause, quote it, give me the evidence or just shut the fuck up already.

As I said. Newton said "action" and "reaction." Show me some action or reaction that isn't motion of some kind. Show me something that doesn't have motion. All motion is reaction with at least one action that caused it. All motion is effect caused by at least one caused.

However, even big bang that you believe in is purportedly the cause of everything. So the whole universe is a cause and effect operation, according to what you believe.

Why do you attempt to contradict yourself like this?

Cool

No, he said, for every action, meaning that if there is an action there is a reaction. What does motion have to do with cause? I already told you quantum processes which are motions seem to have no cause, maybe they do but right now the consensus is that they don't. Do you realize you keep saying the same thing? Newton's 3rd law does not prove that everything has a cause, period.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg26997067#msg26997067
3276  Other / Off-topic / Re: Scientific proof that God exists? on: December 26, 2017, 05:18:58 PM

Unfortunately newtons 3rd law never states that everything has causes. I explained that in the other thread:

'It is sufficient to show that all the motions have causes, which is something that Newton proved with his 3rd law.'' No it's not. Where does newton 3rd law say that all motions have causes? You don't even know what the law says, do you? For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. (FOR EVERY ACTION) meaning that IF there is an action or cause then there is a reaction or effect. Thats only IF not that everything has a cause, nowhere in the law it says that everything has a cause. You are a dishonest liar.

Still wrong.

Not only will you not find a motion in the universe that doesn't have a cause or that isn't a cause, even the idea of it is absurd. Ale there is, is cause and effect, action and reaction.

Cool

Ok since you are going to say the same thing over and over again I will try to make a final statement and if you don't agree with this either I don't think there is a point in continuing the conversation. The idea of everything having causes is just as absurd as something with no cause. Right now, quantum mechanics state that almost all quantum processes are random. This is not me claiming this like you, these are bright minds, far smarter than me and you together that ahve studied this for years and this is what they have come up with. Quantum theory is the best we have, do you understand that? All scientific theories are the best we have right now and I'm not claiming they are 100% true, no one is, when a better theory is known then we use that one but RIGHT NOW, quantum theory just like evolution theory is the best we have, whether you like it or not, it is the best. Can you show us the cause of those quantum processes like radioactive decay? If you can, go ahead, right a paper, get a nobel prize and you will be able to rewrite quantum theory but until you do that you have to accept it as it is. Period.


All except the tiny few quantum processes are random. But they are random from the standpoint that we can't follow the cause and effect processes because of our weak abilities. None of them are pure random, where there are effects that don't have any cause at all.

Here is the proof that cause and effect is universal:
Everything has motion. Even if absolute zero were found somewhere, everything has motion in its subatomic particles or wave (electromagnetic) movement. Can there even be a logical theory for something without motion?

Newton's 3rd Law essentially says C&E with a little more added.

The words "action" and reaction" in the 3rd Law are happening throughout the universe everywhere because there is nowhere in the universe where something is without motion.

Cause and effect is universal. This means that the supposed mutations of evolution have really been caused, rather than being actions without a cause. This changes the whole aspect of what evolution theory suggests evolution is. Evolution was started by whoever/whatever started cause and effect.

All cause and effect operates according to the laws of physics in the universe. Even the pandemonium in a hydrogen nuclear explosion doesn't break the laws of physics. This means that everything is programmed to act the way it does, according to the laws of physics, through universal cause and effect... was programmed right at the Beginning - which entropy shows us there had to be... a beginning.

That which the evolutionists call evolution is something that can't exist, according to the laws of physics, the actions of which are carried out through cause and effect.

Certainly there is change in the universe. Obviously there is a lot of change that we don't understand... we don't know the cause and effect processes that made that change. But we don't need to think about evolution to understand how limited our C&E thinking is. All we need do is watch the way a leaf sways in the breeze, and realize that we have no way of tracking any of the molecules that make it move like it does, all according to cause and effect.

Evolution is just a game that evolutionists and some anthropologists use to make money. When you consider the swaying leaf, the real kind of evolution (whatever we might call it) isn't even important, and won't be until we can track the natural flow of individual atoms and molecules and heat waves much better.

Cool

Claiming that they have a cause is absurd, do you know the cause? If you claim we just don't know the cause then go ahead and propose a solution, simply claiming they do have a cause is bullshit my friend.
You said everything has a cause, I asked you: How do you know? You replied, well you can see many things that have a cause and I can't find anything with no cause. I did give you examples of it yet you insist they do have a cause, how do you know they do have a cause? Maybe they do but maybe they don't, again we can't prove either option so again we have what's left, that is quantum theory not that everything has a cause.

And for god's love stop talking about newton's 3rd law, it doesn't say everything has a cause. ''The words "action" and reaction" in the 3rd Law are happening throughout the universe everywhere because there is nowhere in the universe where something is without motion.'' That is false, action and reaction would happen even if there were things without a cause.

You are simply stating that Newton's 3rd Law contradicts itself. No scientists seem to think this.

Even in your own big bang theory, BB is the cause for everything... and the result is motion and action in everything.

Cool

Show me 1 scientist that thinks newton's 3rd law means that everything has a cause, can you? How does the 3rd law contradict itself? It never says that everything has a cause, it says that everything THAT has a cause will have an effect/reaction. It never says anywhere that everything has a cause, unless you can show me, which you obviously can't, you are just trolling now.
3277  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Evolution is a hoax on: December 26, 2017, 05:17:13 PM

''
Except that I showed the proof of it, that cause and effect is universal in everything. I'll say it again.'' Where have you shown this?Huh??
''Everything has motion. Even if absolute zero were found somewhere, everything has motion in its subatomic particles or wave (electromagnetic) movement. Can there even be a logical theory for something without motion?'' But  what you have to prove is that all the motion has a cause and you can't, why are you repeating the same stuff again? You can't prove that everything has a cause, period.

Again, I don't have to prove that all motion has a cause. Newton did it in his 3rd Law. You might have to think about it to understand it, but a good, simple explanation is listed here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1917510.msg26961799#msg26961799. You even quoted it, above. Didn't you read it?

Cool

I'm starting to believe that you are trolling me now. Newton did not prove or said that everything has a cause, motion =/= cause. Where does it say that everything has a cause, quote it, give me the evidence or just shut the fuck up already.
3278  Other / Off-topic / Re: Scientific proof that God exists? on: December 26, 2017, 10:20:59 AM

Unfortunately newtons 3rd law never states that everything has causes. I explained that in the other thread:

'It is sufficient to show that all the motions have causes, which is something that Newton proved with his 3rd law.'' No it's not. Where does newton 3rd law say that all motions have causes? You don't even know what the law says, do you? For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. (FOR EVERY ACTION) meaning that IF there is an action or cause then there is a reaction or effect. Thats only IF not that everything has a cause, nowhere in the law it says that everything has a cause. You are a dishonest liar.

Still wrong.

Not only will you not find a motion in the universe that doesn't have a cause or that isn't a cause, even the idea of it is absurd. Ale there is, is cause and effect, action and reaction.

Cool

Ok since you are going to say the same thing over and over again I will try to make a final statement and if you don't agree with this either I don't think there is a point in continuing the conversation. The idea of everything having causes is just as absurd as something with no cause. Right now, quantum mechanics state that almost all quantum processes are random. This is not me claiming this like you, these are bright minds, far smarter than me and you together that ahve studied this for years and this is what they have come up with. Quantum theory is the best we have, do you understand that? All scientific theories are the best we have right now and I'm not claiming they are 100% true, no one is, when a better theory is known then we use that one but RIGHT NOW, quantum theory just like evolution theory is the best we have, whether you like it or not, it is the best. Can you show us the cause of those quantum processes like radioactive decay? If you can, go ahead, right a paper, get a nobel prize and you will be able to rewrite quantum theory but until you do that you have to accept it as it is. Period.


All except the tiny few quantum processes are random. But they are random from the standpoint that we can't follow the cause and effect processes because of our weak abilities. None of them are pure random, where there are effects that don't have any cause at all.

Here is the proof that cause and effect is universal:
Everything has motion. Even if absolute zero were found somewhere, everything has motion in its subatomic particles or wave (electromagnetic) movement. Can there even be a logical theory for something without motion?

Newton's 3rd Law essentially says C&E with a little more added.

The words "action" and reaction" in the 3rd Law are happening throughout the universe everywhere because there is nowhere in the universe where something is without motion.

Cause and effect is universal. This means that the supposed mutations of evolution have really been caused, rather than being actions without a cause. This changes the whole aspect of what evolution theory suggests evolution is. Evolution was started by whoever/whatever started cause and effect.

All cause and effect operates according to the laws of physics in the universe. Even the pandemonium in a hydrogen nuclear explosion doesn't break the laws of physics. This means that everything is programmed to act the way it does, according to the laws of physics, through universal cause and effect... was programmed right at the Beginning - which entropy shows us there had to be... a beginning.

That which the evolutionists call evolution is something that can't exist, according to the laws of physics, the actions of which are carried out through cause and effect.

Certainly there is change in the universe. Obviously there is a lot of change that we don't understand... we don't know the cause and effect processes that made that change. But we don't need to think about evolution to understand how limited our C&E thinking is. All we need do is watch the way a leaf sways in the breeze, and realize that we have no way of tracking any of the molecules that make it move like it does, all according to cause and effect.

Evolution is just a game that evolutionists and some anthropologists use to make money. When you consider the swaying leaf, the real kind of evolution (whatever we might call it) isn't even important, and won't be until we can track the natural flow of individual atoms and molecules and heat waves much better.

Cool

Claiming that they have a cause is absurd, do you know the cause? If you claim we just don't know the cause then go ahead and propose a solution, simply claiming they do have a cause is bullshit my friend.
You said everything has a cause, I asked you: How do you know? You replied, well you can see many things that have a cause and I can't find anything with no cause. I did give you examples of it yet you insist they do have a cause, how do you know they do have a cause? Maybe they do but maybe they don't, again we can't prove either option so again we have what's left, that is quantum theory not that everything has a cause.

And for god's love stop talking about newton's 3rd law, it doesn't say everything has a cause. ''The words "action" and reaction" in the 3rd Law are happening throughout the universe everywhere because there is nowhere in the universe where something is without motion.'' That is false, action and reaction would happen even if there were things without a cause.
3279  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Evolution is a hoax on: December 26, 2017, 10:16:54 AM

I'm just going to say something similar as in the other thread. Since neither of us can prove that everything has a cause or that there is something without a cause, this is what we are left with. Evolution theory. It doesn't matter that you don't want to accept it, it is the best we have. There are also a ton of applications for it. Antibiotic resistance is the ability of a microorganism to withstand the effects of an antibiotic. Unless you claim that god made these microorganisms to suddenly develop resistance to antibiotics to kill us. Evolution is what did it, not god.

Except that I showed the proof of it, that cause and effect is universal in everything. I'll say it again.

Everything has motion. Even if absolute zero were found somewhere, everything has motion in its subatomic particles or wave (electromagnetic) movement. Can there even be a logical theory for something without motion?

Newton's 3rd Law essentially says C&E with a little more added.

The words "action" and reaction" in the 3rd Law are happening throughout the universe everywhere because there is nowhere in the universe where something is without motion.

Cause and effect is universal. This means that the supposed mutations of evolution have really been caused, rather than being actions without a cause. This changes the whole aspect of what evolution theory suggests evolution is. Evolution was started by whoever/whatever started cause and effect.

All cause and effect operates according to the laws of physics in the universe. Even the pandemonium in a hydrogen nuclear explosion doesn't break the laws of physics. This means that everything is programmed to act the way it does, according to the laws of physics, through universal cause and effect... was programmed right at the Beginning - which entropy shows us there had to be... a beginning.

That which the evolutionists call evolution is something that can't exist, according to the laws of physics, the actions of which are carried out through cause and effect.

Certainly there is change in the universe. Obviously there is a lot of change that we don't understand... we don't know the cause and effect processes that made that change. But we don't need to think about evolution to understand how limited our C&E thinking is. All we need do is watch the way a leaf sways in the breeze, and realize that we have no way of tracking any of the molecules that make it move like it does, all according to cause and effect.

Evolution is just a game that evolutionists and some anthropologists use to make money. When you consider the swaying leaf, the real kind of evolution (whatever we might call it) isn't even important, and won't be until we can track the natural flow of individual atoms and molecules and heat waves much better.

Evolution is a big fat hoax.

Cool

''
Except that I showed the proof of it, that cause and effect is universal in everything. I'll say it again.'' Where have you shown this?Huh??
''Everything has motion. Even if absolute zero were found somewhere, everything has motion in its subatomic particles or wave (electromagnetic) movement. Can there even be a logical theory for something without motion?'' But  what you have to prove is that all the motion has a cause and you can't, why are you repeating the same stuff again? You can't prove that everything has a cause, period.
3280  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Evolution is a hoax on: December 25, 2017, 06:52:14 PM

You still haven't shown proof that everything has a cause, though.

Sure I have.

You forget...

Everything is moving in the universe, because absolute zero is not quite attainable.

Movement means action.

Action means existence of reaction - Newton's 3rd Law.

This means that there is cause and effect in everything, which means there are programmed changes, not random mutations like Evolution theory says.

However, if absolute zero were attained somewhere in the universe, it wouldn't be in an evolving mutation. Absolute zero means no movement. No movement means no change... no mutation.

Evolution is a hoax.

Cool

However even if everything is in motion, what matters is the cause/causes of all the motions and you can't prove or show all the causes of all the motions, can you? True randomness exists, at least it's just the way quantum mechanics works. It may seem a bit unsatifactory to just have to accept the randomness, but remember that quantum mechanics is only a mathematical model - one that so far successfully describes the universe we see around us. All mathematical models are based on some assumptions, and the randomness in making measurements is one of these assumptions. It's possible that some deeper model will be developed one day, and this model will explain why the randomness occurs. However there is no such model at the moment, nor even a hint of one.

Oh dear. You forgot to read the post you are replying to.

I don't have to prove the causes of all the motions. It is sufficient to show that all the motions have causes, which is something that Newton proved with his 3rd law.

If you want to start to prove evolution, you have to find at least one effect that doesn't have a cause.

Quantum anything is simply complex probability. Probability indicates that we don't know. If we knew, we wouldn't need probability to attempt to find out. We wouldn't need quantum. Quantum takes into account C&E. It doesn't ever leave C&E behind. That is the reason it is as successful as it is. But its proof is in the engineering of whatever model quantum shows us.

The thing that this tells us is that evolution is something that we don't know to have fact behind it. There is no engineering to back up any evolution quantum model that might be in existence. The probability of evolution in this form or in that form cancels itself out. The quantum models might be there. Now let's find some engineering that can prove which quantum model is most or absolutely correct. Since evolution hasn't been proven, we don't know that it is correct. When we look at the things that oppose it, we find that evolution can't be real, no matter how many quantum possibilities exist.

Evolution is a hoax.
Astargath is a hoax.

Cool

''It is sufficient to show that all the motions have causes, which is something that Newton proved with his 3rd law.'' No it's not. Where does newton 3rd law say that all motions have causes? You don't even know what the law says, do you? For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. (FOR EVERY ACTION) meaning that IF there is an action or cause then there is a reaction or effect. Thats only IF not that everything has a cause, nowhere in the law it says that everything has a cause. You are a dishonest liar.

I'm just going to say something similar as in the other thread. Since neither of us can prove that everything has a cause or that there is something without a cause, this is what we are left with. Evolution theory. It doesn't matter that you don't want to accept it, it is the best we have. There are also a ton of applications for it. Antibiotic resistance is the ability of a microorganism to withstand the effects of an antibiotic. Unless you claim that god made these microorganisms to suddenly develop resistance to antibiotics to kill us. Evolution is what did it, not god.
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