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3281  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin and Smart Cards on: June 22, 2011, 06:15:16 AM
Ah, you started with the retail terminal scenario; I started with the scenarios in use today thinking it could be expanded to those if the cost could get down low enough.

If I were to start with the terminal scenario I would have still do a smart card for form factor and cost reasons; implementation wise I would do a custom card applet that implements the bit coin wallet, communicated with a secured pin entry device (ped) or had onboard display and input mechanisms.

The approach you mention would work but I don't know if it could ever be scaled out to a currency card in a cost effective manner.

That said our two lines of thinking are compatible.

Actually, I started by thinking of ways to get my keys off of my home box, and ways to make sure they never ever had to be exposed to a hostile environment (disregarding loss of possession for now).  Once I got going a little bit, I realized that it would work just as well at a retail POS as it would in my home.

You are probably right that it wouldn't be cost effective for the masses.  I'm thinking around $100 in parts for the first crude ugly prototype, plus many hours of labor.  I'm sure plenty of people here would pay that much, or double that, but we are not typical.
3282  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: BTC Guild - 0% Fees, Long polling, SSL, JSON API, and more [~2200 gH/sec] on: June 22, 2011, 05:36:07 AM
eleuthria:

Have you thought about running a currency exchange? I hear there is an opening.  Cheesy

Great work as usual! Thanks for all your work in providing the best pool out there!

I've thought about it many times.  It would be so easy, and it would be crazy how much I could do with an exchange that had some integrations with the pool to facilitate fast sells/buys.  After dealing with how to scale these pools, the kind of traffic an exchange would get is nothing.

However, I simply don't know what kind of legal trouble it could cause running an exchange, since I live in the US.  And there is no way I could keep working my day job (which I do enjoy, most the time) while running this pool AND an exchange.

Exchanges are easy.  Clearing houses are not.  The pressing need right now is not for more exchanges, but for more clearing houses.
3283  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin and Smart Cards on: June 22, 2011, 05:35:22 AM
I've been thinking about wallet security too.  I think a second device is a good idea, but I see it working in a different way.

I see a portable dedicated device with very limited communications ability.  Just a serial port will do, which probably means serial over USB or serial over bluetooth.  It will also have a SD card socket for wallet backups.

The device will generate the key pairs, and store them.  The private key never leaves the device, except on the SD card backup, which could be encrypted.

I think it only needs 3 hooks into the PC client software.

1) It needs to be able to push public keys to the client.
2) It needs to be able to ask for (and receive) balance updates from the client.
3) It needs to be able to accept an address from the client, and generate a complete transaction to that address using an amount entered on a keypad.  (Or possibly accept an address and amount, then only ask for confirmation.)

I think this could help with the retail problem too; no reason why you couldn't plug it into a potentially hostile terminal.

I'm thinking Arduino.  It should already have all of the crypto libraries necessary, plus hookups for serial, USB, BT, and SD cards.  Probably going to order some hardware this week to get started.

I started with the assumption that my box is owned, and every retail terminal is owned (which is true, since they are literally owned by someone other than me).

You plug into your home computer or a retail POS, and the computer sends a payment request.  The device displays the address and amount, you press yes or no.  The device then generates a transaction, or doesn't.

Point 4 through 6 are unnecessary in this scenario, since I'm not worried (yet) about the device getting lost or stolen.  The only problem I'm looking to solve right now is the malware stealing your keys problem.
3284  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin and Smart Cards on: June 22, 2011, 05:15:31 AM
I've started working on such a project, but it won't be a card, at least not the early models.  Only items 1 through 3 in your list are really critical here, at least to start.  Also, a display built into the unit is absolutely critical.  Without it, there can be no security at all.
3285  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Should there be Three Laws of Bitcoin? on: June 22, 2011, 05:02:48 AM
Do you know what happens to bank accounts after seven years of inactivity?

Free toaster?
3286  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: A proposed solution to adjust for lost Bitcoins: wallet 'heartbeats' on: June 22, 2011, 05:01:07 AM
The stability of a system where 10 million coins are in circulation and no more than 1 million are unaccounted for is much greater than a system where 1000 are in circulation and 10 million are unaccounted for. By unaccounted for, what we mean is, are they lost or being saved? We cannot know.

If 1000 coins were in circulation right now, we know that about 6 million are saved, as opposed to lost. This is a reasonable assumption. This assumption must become murkier over time. We do know that coins will be lost, until every coin is lost. But we don't know the rate, nor will we ever have a more accurate estimate of it than we do now.

What we know for certain is that our estimate of the ratio of coins in circulation compared to the number of coins either saved or lost is guaranteed to become less accurate over time. In its extreme, that ratio approaches zero. And when that ratio is near zero, the currency is unusable.

Why?  Why is it unusable?  You keep saying this, but you offer no reasons why it might be true.
3287  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: A proposed solution to adjust for lost Bitcoins: wallet 'heartbeats' on: June 22, 2011, 04:45:30 AM
Quote
If the value of bitcoins increases on the market, a feedback system will draw coins out of hiding to reach a new equilibrium.
Oh no no no no no you got it all wrong.  See, someone saves 10,000 coins for 10 years, finds them and then BAM!! instant market imbalance!!  Shocked Shocked Shocked

/joke

I'd laugh, but this comes up a dozen times a day from people that aren't joking.

Personally, I blame high school science teachers.  If there was one concept that I wish that everyone I met understood, it is the concept of a dynamic equilibrium.  So many people are unable to understand that those 10,000 coins sitting out helped increase the value of the circulating coins, and they will have the inverse effect when (or if) they come back into circulation.  Yes, this causes an imbalance, but in a feedback system, such as an economy, this result is an adjustment, not an explosion.
3288  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: A proposed solution to adjust for lost Bitcoins: wallet 'heartbeats' on: June 22, 2011, 04:39:03 AM
There may be merit to what you're saying, but are you positive it is addressing this scenario:

The problem is that the ratio of saved coins to lost coins becomes less knowable over time, while at the same time, the ratio of coins known to be in circulation to the coins that are currently not in circulation (lost or saved) becomes smaller and smaller, which leads to a system that becomes, at the extreme, so uncertain that it is unusable.

I don't understand why you think that knowledge of the number of coins available is important, nor why you think that the lack of that knowledge causes instability.  You keep stating it as if it were self-evident, but it clearly is not evident to other people, so you need to explain.
3289  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Bitcoin tracking to specific origins on: June 22, 2011, 04:24:52 AM
I just think it would be cool to be able to search for coins of mine that were participants in notable events in bitcoin history.

That it would be useless against scammed and stolen coins is actually an argument in favor of implementing it as a novelty.
3290  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: A proposed solution to adjust for lost Bitcoins: wallet 'heartbeats' on: June 22, 2011, 04:17:24 AM
I just read this thread again, twice, to make sure I understood where you went wrong.  This post is the key:

You can get a good idea of how many are in circulation, but as time progresses, you will have less certainty of how many are saved vs. lost.

Let's assume it's the future and all 21 million have been minted. Let's assume that we see 14 million in active circulation and 7 million that aren't circulating. Are they lost or being saved? Valuations will be less accurate over time. I don't see how they cannot be. Imagine valuations based on the assumption that they are mostly lost, and then have them dumped on the market from a dormant account.

Over time, there is a guarantee that bitcoins will be lost, but there will be no real way to measure the average loss over time. Requiring a heartbeat eliminates that problem and allows valuations to be more certain over time.

More importantly, and perhaps most importantly, the accuracy of valuations over time based on circulation will be relatively constant.

Your entire argument is based on the notion that someone could calculate in advance the value of a bitcoin by dividing something by the number of coins available.  This notion is false; value is what the market will pay you.

The market performs price discovery, and it uses only participating coins to do so.  Coins that are not participating, whether they are lost or saved, do not factor into prices at all.  The uncertainty over the amount of coins remaining in the system has no particular effect on values.

If the value of bitcoins increases on the market, a feedback system will draw coins out of hiding to reach a new equilibrium.  If they decrease, feedback will push them back into savings.  This equilibrium will be somewhat higher or lower depending on how many coins are actually lost, but this does not indicate uncertainty of value, and it will not destabilize the system.  This change in equilibrium actually represents a transfer of the value of the lost coins into all of the remaining coins.

Oh, and read this, particularly question 6 and the reply.
3291  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: A proposed solution to adjust for lost Bitcoins: wallet 'heartbeats' on: June 22, 2011, 03:00:07 AM
The system as it is now is designed to allow commerce and valuation to occur, assuming that valuations are based on the collective wisdom of the crowd, which is based on the notion that most all coins are not lost.

No.  The system was based on the notion that the total quantity of coins is unimportant.

From day one it has been understood that coins could be and would be lost.  I'm sorry you missed this in your research, but coin loss was a design decision, not an accident.
3292  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Bitcoin tracking to specific origins on: June 22, 2011, 02:56:39 AM
Convince Theymos to implement a tagging system where users can attach keywords to transactions, and later search on them.  Or write your own.
3293  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Open Letter to Mybitcoin - Could you please tell me you're not THIEVES? on: June 22, 2011, 02:37:53 AM
How dare these villains attempt to protect their members accounts?  You should call your lawyer immediately.
3294  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Using NameCoin for wallet address? on: June 22, 2011, 01:50:10 AM
not all payments are due to personalized requests.

Then why bother tracking it?

the best solution would be a field that can be filled with any data encrypted by the receiver's address public key.

You actually can embed arbitrary data using OP_DROP.  Or at least the protocol supports it.  Nodes running the stock client probably won't accept or relay your transaction if you use it though, at least today.  Hard to say if it will catch on in the future or not.

But why waste bits?  There is already a mechanism to match payments to orders (or whatever), and it is in active use today on every website ever made that accepts bitcoins.
3295  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Deflation: Wage rates and the employee VS the Employer on: June 22, 2011, 01:38:41 AM
I'm not arguing that it would be a tough sell, though I do think that's a PR problem when trying to sell this idea. I am asking if job stability would suffer in a deflationary economy. It sounds like most people are saying that job stability would suffer and that shouldn't matter. Or that people would get use to it job instability or live with pay decreases.
They wouldn't be living with pay decreases. If I pay one week with 50 one dollar bills and the next day with one 50 dollar bill, has your pay decreased because you received fewer dollars?

There is no reason job stability would suffer. You can make the same argument in an inflationary economy and it's equally wrong. Here it goes: "Suppose I get a job for $55,000 per year. Two years later, due to inflation, I'm not being paid enough. So unless my boss is willing to raise my salary, I'll take a new job for a higher wage. So job stability will suffer due to inflation." But we all know that's not right. Both participants have an incentive to restore the wage to market value.

Your right, 2 years later $55,000 wouldn't be as much. So it has become very common place to have standard of living adjustments while working at companies currently.

And I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. In order to combat deflation companies would either need to adjust your pay, (pay you less every year) or fire you and hire someone new for less money. If you read my original question I give the example of, if someone pays you 10 bucks an hour and inflation hits at 10% a year. Why, in 10 years time, wouldn't your employer fire you and hire 10 other people at 1 dollar an hour? The only other option for the employer that I can think of is it would be common place to pass out a standard of living adjustment and pay you less every year. That or labor would start to get underpaid in order to counter act deflation and keep employees. Either way it doesn't promote employment longevity and job stability. It seems to be the same problem as inflation just in reverse. 

Why do you think that standard of living adjustments can only go in one direction?
3296  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Using NameCoin for wallet address? on: June 22, 2011, 12:18:13 AM
If the seller uses a single address for all receipts, how they know that they got your payment?

why doesnt the bitcoin protocol include a reference number?
I can see why you don't want the size of transactions to get out of hand because they are distributed, but a simple reference field similar to SEPA would be nice.

The receiving bitcoin address IS the reference number.

as you can see above, it is not.
that's like saying the SEPA account number is the reference number, because the receiver could open an account for each payment.

people obviously would like to publish their address for more than one payment but still be able to identify payments aside from the payed amount.

edit: the (important) difference is that a reference number can be freely assigned by the sender, not be generated by the receiver.

Why add a useless field when there is a perfectly usable mechanism already in place that accomplishes what you need to do?  Every single ecommerce site on the internet that accepts bitcoins is already using unique addresses to relate payments to customers or invoices or whatever.
3297  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Sabatoge: "Losing" Bitcoins on: June 22, 2011, 12:13:43 AM
In other words, Bitcoin is INFINITELY divisible, therefore the loss of even 99.9% of all bitcoins is not a problem?
Bitcoins are only division down to 2.1e15 units. Changing that is no less difficult than increasing the total BTC count from 21 million to 21 billion, or making it infinite.

But far more likely to be accepted by the community.
3298  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Question regarding Bitcoin client: "receiving" addresses in Address Book on: June 22, 2011, 12:12:23 AM
The client simplifies and automates your wallet.  Beyond curiosity, you really don't want to have to deal with the nuts and bolts.

When you send coins, you aren't sending from your balance, and you aren't sending from your addresses, you are sending from previous transactions that have been sent to keys in your wallet.  That part is critical, because a transaction can only be redeemed once, and always in full.

Say, you have received three transactions for 1.3, 4.6 and 0.5 BTC, for a total of 6.4 BTC.  You want to send 6.1 BTC to someone.  The client will create a transaction that redeems all three inputs, because it needs all three to reach the desired spend amount.  But that is 6.4 BTC, not 6.1 BTC, so it creates a new key and address to accept the "change", and finishes the transaction with two outputs, one for 6.1 BTC to the address you wanted to send to, and one of 0.3 BTC back to your wallet via the newly generated change address.

That is why spending coins can (and usually does) generate new addresses in your address book.  The GUI doesn't really show how your balance is distributed amongst your addresses, but I think you can get it on the command line, or by punching the addresses into the block explorer.
3299  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Using NameCoin for wallet address? on: June 21, 2011, 11:58:10 PM
If the seller uses a single address for all receipts, how they know that they got your payment?

why doesnt the bitcoin protocol include a reference number?
I can see why you don't want the size of transactions to get out of hand because they are distributed, but a simple reference field similar to SEPA would be nice.

The receiving bitcoin address IS the reference number.
3300  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Making it public: I have moved the disputed 643.2771 BTC into an escrow account on: June 21, 2011, 11:55:20 PM
Petition to FREE KEVIN!!

Finally!  A chance to bust out my old yellow bumper stickers!
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