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3381  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: [ANN] US/North American Bitfury sales now open ***full prototype pics*** on: October 30, 2013, 11:37:01 PM
Nice results, goxed.  What voltage are your boards at (once they're heated)?

The boards with good chips are at 0.9V, the ones with >=2 bad chips are at 0.95V

impressive. I cant get past 0.88v (39-41GH per board) without having chips or boards drop to 0 hashrate or produce massive3 error rates time to time
are you using heatsinks? especially on the regulator and the lower half of the board? I have put up a reference picture in this thread. if you copy that you should get the board up to 0.9v provided there's good airflow.

I have good heatsinks but perhaps could use slightly larger ones on the regulator/inductor. 0.865-0.87 is good for 40GH on my boards, but the pencil mod ramps up to maximum (or minimum?) resistance over a few days and its difficult to get the exact balance. once it climbs to >0.88v the boards become unstable and i see high error rates followed by entire boards or just some of the chips dropping to 0 every few hours and upkeep is a PITA.

i'm sure if i had cold air moving through the heatsinks (rather then the 21 C room temperature) I could reach 0.9V though, or at least achieve a stable 0.88v
3382  Economy / Service Announcements / Re: [ANN] Bitfury ASIC sales in EU and Europe on: October 30, 2013, 11:02:26 PM

How much do you reckon they'll be priced at (with or without the chips)?

Probably very close to or more than what they will return in their lifetime.

hopefully the price will be set <2BTC at this point

Not even sure you would make ROI at <1BTC. Even if you has it in hands today...

work on your math. assuming the boards run at >30GH without overclocking, you should be able to see 2BTC return within a few months, and the bitfury chip is pretty future-stable (on par with many 28nm designs when underclocked)
3383  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: [ANN] US/North American Bitfury sales now open ***full prototype pics*** on: October 30, 2013, 11:00:06 PM
Nice results, goxed.  What voltage are your boards at (once they're heated)?

The boards with good chips are at 0.9V, the ones with >=2 bad chips are at 0.95V

impressive. I cant get past 0.88v (39-41GH per board) without having chips or boards drop to 0 hashrate or produce massive3 error rates time to time
3384  Economy / Computer hardware / [WTB] Bitfury H-boards (Canada) on: October 30, 2013, 05:31:50 PM
Looking to buy a few more H-cards for my setup, for reasonable prices. All conditions considered (pencil mods, EOL boards with bad chips, heatsinks attached, etc). I am in Toronto, Ontario, Canada but am open to worldwide shipping.

I can offer to work with escrow if desired to ensure smooth and fast purchase. Feel free to contact me by PM, I'm looking to pay less than $350 or 1.75BTC each.
3385  Economy / Computer hardware / Re: WTS: In-hand Klondike K16 $250 shipped obo. on: October 30, 2013, 05:15:06 PM
$75
3386  Economy / Service Announcements / Re: [ANN] Bitfury ASIC sales in EU and Europe on: October 30, 2013, 04:49:07 PM
Hopefully in few days.

How much do you reckon they'll be priced at (with or without the chips)?

Probably very close to or more than what they will return in their lifetime.

hopefully the price will be set <2BTC at this point
3387  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Time to sue ButterflyLabs - Big Single-SC owner let's league for class action on: October 30, 2013, 12:32:28 PM

ahahahahahahahah responding to an ignored post? You get the gold trollie award for that one

BFL deserves to be sued or have action brought against them by the FTC. The delays are unnacceptable and Inaba/Josh is the most abrasive personality on the forums, constantly mis-informing and insulting.

Im lucky paypal was able to refund me after 45 days (closer to 80 days) when i realised that the device i ordered in early june with a mid-september estimated delivery was actually coming no sooner then late october. (Now late-november seems to be the situation).

Id love to know how KNC shipped hundreds of units out in a few days (each one containing several of what is similar to the BFL board+heatsink assembly) and BFL seems incapable of averaging moe than a few dozen units a day.

If BFL had proper forum presence (ie: kicked inaba to the curb and put someone more positive in) I might have not demanded my refund, and been able to accept delays. but to have inaba call people idiots and ban CUSTOMERS from the BFL forums is insane.
3388  Bitcoin / Mining support / Re: **US** BitFury Setup Guide on: October 29, 2013, 03:30:06 AM
hello guys, need some help here! got my extra h-board today, after install the h-board, turn power on the pi turn on but only the red light stay on, and already try to remove the new card, still doing the same!!!! now I'm unable to ssh or use the web to get in!!!! any idea?Huh thanks!

Its you SD Card. Load up another one or re-image it to get going again. It seems like sometimes powering down causes the issue.

FOLLOW-UP QUESTION: what would happen with there being fans drawing power from the M-board? Is it possible that when the unit powers off, the fans' continued rotation is forcing a dropping (but available) voltage across the RPi damaging either the SD or causing partial operation/writes by the processor?

im curious whether the victims of SD cards or RPis dying commonly use more or bigger fans drawing from the board connectors? I was using a 3-pin 230mm and 2-wire 80mm the one (and only) time my SD card needed a swap. Im still using that since with no issues

thanks klondike!! but i have no idea how to re-image the SD Card and do i need a SD card reader??? thanks

edit: should i get a new SD card and can i use a 8GB?

a new one makes a good backup. 4GB is mine and makes keeping both with a working image much simpler if the issue happens again. you'll need an sd card reader, or a lot of linux skills. (I suggest a 2$ card reader :p)
3389  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: [ANN] US/North American Bitfury sales now open ***full prototype pics*** on: October 29, 2013, 03:24:28 AM
Well, I cant say you are wrong mainly because I really have no idea, although it seems like a bit of a jump in hashing power to hit those numbers.

+30% jumps are conservative.  BFL is still shipping, so is KNC; HF, Cointerra, BA are still unknowns.  Then you have bitfuries.  I suspect we'll see 30-50% jumps every 2 weeks at least until Feb/14 or Mar/14.  Monarchs and BAs shipped in numbers will culminate this run up.

I think people who ordered Monarchs will be dumping their pre-orders sometime in December at 50% loss.

BTW, Bitfury kits for November better be in the KNC price range, i.e. $3-4K per full kit.  It all can change very quickly if HF demos their chip.
Then $3K/full kit will become expensive overnight.

not true. I think there will be another 1-2 months of 30% increases, then it will HAVE to slowly adjust downwards. Costs will slowly approach the price of manufacturing, in the case of bitfury it is unlikely they can make a board for any less than $200 (and continue to pay off nre costs) for some time. Other manufacture use more complex designs that may be even more difficult to bring, and machines like asicminer / BFL / avalon (first-gen anyways) will become inefficient far sooner than bitfury and other gen2 asics capable of <1w/GH

to double hashrate by Nov 24 (less than 3 difficulty changes at 30+%), each company that is now shipping would basically need to ship 70%+ of the amount already shipped (Basically asking that they have tightened their production speeds by 2-3x current.
3390  Bitcoin / Mining support / Re: **US** BitFury Setup Guide on: October 29, 2013, 01:50:06 AM
hello guys, need some help here! got my extra h-board today, after install the h-board, turn power on the pi turn on but only the red light stay on, and already try to remove the new card, still doing the same!!!! now I'm unable to ssh or use the web to get in!!!! any idea?Huh thanks!

Its you SD Card. Load up another one or re-image it to get going again. It seems like sometimes powering down causes the issue.

FOLLOW-UP QUESTION: what would happen with there being fans drawing power from the M-board? Is it possible that when the unit powers off, the fans' continued rotation is forcing a dropping (but available) voltage across the RPi damaging either the SD or causing partial operation/writes by the processor?

im curious whether the victims of SD cards or RPis dying commonly use more or bigger fans drawing from the board connectors? I was using a 3-pin 230mm and 2-wire 80mm the one (and only) time my SD card needed a swap. Im still using that since with no issues
3391  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: [ANN] US/North American Bitfury sales now open ***full prototype pics*** on: October 29, 2013, 01:44:04 AM
https://megabigpower.com/shop/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=53

This  is insanely overpriced.  $8000 = 40BTC.

400GH will get you only 27 BTC.

http://btcinvest.net/en/bitcoin-mining-profit-calculator.php?diff=390928787.63809&dcosts=8000&diff_mincrease=30&blpbtc=25&dhsmhs=400000&diff_mincreasedecrease=3&btcusd=190.75&dpowcon=30&btcusd_mincrease=1&pcost=0.25&calcweeks=32&dleadtime=0&action=calc

Why would someone spend $8000 to buy 27BTC via this mining hardware when they can spend $8000 to buy 40BTC via an exchange.

AM I missing something?


I expect next week they will announce the november pricing, hopefully bringing these closer to parity
3392  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: [ANN] US/North American Bitfury sales now open ***full prototype pics*** on: October 29, 2013, 12:17:01 AM
And what defines whether the cards run well vs turn into melted goo like seen in some of the other photos

Well, I suspect someone experimented with stuff that even bitfury himself said isn't worth the try. The issue is how to provide the 0.6-0.9V VDD for the chip. On the melted boards I don't see a power regulator (the thing that most people used to "pencil mod").

The chip was designed to support "chained VDD" configuration - in this case if let's say you have 5V power supply and you want to feed that into 8 chips you can chain them one after another and presuming everything works fine each of the chips will get 0.625V (or 5V/8chips). It's the same as wiring a bunch of christmas lights in series.
Everything works fine until one of them shorts. Then instead of each chip having 0.625V they'll get 0.71V (or 5V/7) which will make them produce more heat. When the next one fails the voltage goes to 0.83V (5V/6 chips), and with the next one it goes to 1V per chip. Etc, etc. etc.

So basically things turn from bad to worse very very quickly.

If you're interested in the technical details - that's a good place to start:
Single chips is quick & dirty. Yes I want more - ideally I would like to see board that is powered with 12 V strings and have no external components (costs) except chips and passive components.
But that won't be simple to get. But that's what I was aiming to actually blow off any other component vendors from bill of materials and do not make bottlenecks with turn-around-times and such with inductors, many power regulators and such.
But this is what again - likely can't be done quicky, only if very lucky and there should be no complex filtering/anti-resonance issue between chips in a string (you see - we now connect CMMINUS, CMQ, CMPLUS to GND).

what about if all the chips had parallel power, and the m-board (or an external PSU) simply provided 0.85V?
3393  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: [ANN] US/North American Bitfury sales now open ***full prototype pics*** on: October 28, 2013, 10:54:52 PM
As I understand the versions:

V1 h-boards have the caps.  V2 h-boards don't.  Both fit either V1 or V2 m-boards.

V3 h-boards fit V-3 m-boards only due to the polarized connector.

The other boards that have been mentioned 8 chip, etc. haven't been given official version numbers yet.

Tytus on picostock thread said that 8 chip boards are so noisy you can't put two on the same bus!

spiccioli

8 chip boards were experimental, and intended for the mine.  These boards are two-layer and do have noise problems.  However they work great when you clock them up and put one on each bus.  A 16 bus M-board may be in the works - this will make just about anything run - noisy cards, EOL's, etc.  Maybe these 8 chip boards would be sellable at that time...not sure.

any chance they will be made for sale, or the schematics made public? And what defines whether the cards run well vs turn into melted goo like seen in some of the other photos
3394  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Where are the new Custom Hardware vendors? on: October 26, 2013, 08:07:50 PM
from my research it appears the main issue is that to develop a board based on someone else's chips is usually an expensive venture unless you source it to china or north europe, and even then the asic manufactureres charge too much for thier chips on a reel.

for example lets take a bitfury 16-chip board:

PCB prototype cost (3-10 boards): ~$60-200 per board with varying timeframes
parts (not including bitfury chips): ~$15-30 per board depending if you want to upgrade components for better overclocking
assembly (in north america): ~$80-$200 per board depending how many and where you go. generally there is a first-time fee of >$200

total cost per board for small-run batch : $200-$350 approx
total cost per board for batch of 200 boards : $50-$100 approx
CHIP COST: currently the lowest ive seen is around $15 if ordering a reel. for 16-chip board : $240

this means that even with large production batches, we would be limited by what the chip designer wants for a reel. In the above example, a medium-sized run of boards and assembly would not be much less than direct purchase from MBP/BFSB (especially if they drop pricing to $350-$400 soon like i think they should)

Even with the promise of $5 chips in janruary, you would see costs of around $150 per board and it would be minimally cheaper then what they would likely charge at the time. The only way to step ahead of the curve is to design your own chips or have an open-source design.

*open-source cant be difficult, since most designs are based on FPGA code, right? I would imagine it cant be difficult to make chips for $1 a peice that are a basic design (exactly what avalon and asicminer did IMO)*
3395  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Good price at CEX.io on: October 26, 2013, 06:20:00 PM
So i was just tapping some numbers in to http://mining.thegenesisblock.com and i might have this wrong but it looks a lot like you need a price of about 0.05 BTC per GH to turn a profit?

Am I missing something?


WHAT did you use for diff increase rate each month?

132% will not last  for more then a few months.  

 punch in 132% and 5 months  then punch in 132 % and 10 months.

After that try 100%   for 5 and 10 months.

then try 75%
then try 50%  
then try 25%    



 The real question is how long before the numbers drop from 132% a month back to a more normal 10 to 30% per month.

im guessing janruary we will be down to 60%, and march down to 25%
3396  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Miners should be sold with the warning on: October 26, 2013, 06:15:42 PM
should we write on the side of food : "might make you fat. hoarding your food money will make you thinner and richer"?

(if you say yes, welcome to the nanny state for idiots)

3397  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: [ANN] US/North American Bitfury sales now open ***full prototype pics*** on: October 26, 2013, 04:40:06 PM
EDIT: I have heatsinks on back of all boards in regulator area, and 120 CFM fans!

Does the backside of the regulator even get hot? I have felt the top of the chip and its very hot but I don't feel much on the backside. Wouldn't putting a small heatsink on the chip do more?

For the hashing chips those thermal vias work well as even touching the vias themselves gets hot, even better with a heatsink.

Yes, it gets quite hot. I believe they are also constructed do dissipate the heat to the board, but I did not do any research in that matter.
In my opinion the regulator heatsink is much more important than chip heatsinks.

+1, the most important task before serious overvolting of the h-boards (0.8V+) is to first stick heatsinks on the back side of the board under the regulator. If possible, stick a heatsink on top of the regulator and the inductor. This way you can take them as high as 1V. The board will dissipate close to 70Watts at 1V.

Can you recommend a source for suitable heatsinks?

   maybe you like this heatsink but some said it's too tall http://www.ebay.com/itm/100x140x12-7mm-Aluminum-Heatsink-for-Electronic-Computer-Electric-equipment-H157-/181110341808?ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:CA:3160
i would beleive that you cant fill every slot on the board if using a heatsink taller than 8-10mm. i have some 35x35x6mm heatsinks on mine that easily allow airflow between every slot
3398  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Where are the new Custom Hardware vendors? on: October 25, 2013, 08:19:30 PM
People are finding out it's not as easy to create a brand new product as they would have you believe, that's what's happening.  Even the people using others IP can't bring products to market (Look at Bicknellski's failed ventures) with all of the parts already laid out for them, much less create anything from scratch.

Surprise!  It actually requires skill, commitment and dedication to create a new product and bring it to market.



1) create product [check]
2) bring to market [....uh....check?]
3) fulfill all pre-orders and sell from in-hand stock [i guess in two weeks...right now you are shipping preorders 2-4months later than initially 'promised'/suggested]
4) take preorders on next-gen product that is rediculously overpriced by today's standards, and promise to deliver it before the 110nm preorders are filled

Can you point to a vendor that's doing number 3 now?  Are you seriously complaining that because demand is exceeding supply, it is somehow the vendors fault?

As for 4, I have no idea what you are talking about. BFL doesn't have any 110nm products and again, are you seriously complaining about the fact that people are paying money for a given product and the vendor charges what people will pay... but it's "overpriced" even though people are paying it?  If it was overpriced, people wouldn't buy it - that is simple economics.  If you think it's over priced, don't buy it.  The majority of the market disagrees with you, so that makes you the one that is incorrect. 

So basically points 3 and 4 are invalid and you have proven my point.


you cant be serious? asicminer, bitfury, and avalon are all selling units that are available immediately.
3399  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: [ANN] US/North American Bitfury sales now open ***full prototype pics*** on: October 25, 2013, 07:31:37 PM
EDIT: I have heatsinks on back of all boards in regulator area, and 120 CFM fans!

Does the backside of the regulator even get hot? I have felt the top of the chip and its very hot but I don't feel much on the backside. Wouldn't putting a small heatsink on the chip do more?

For the hashing chips those thermal vias work well as even touching the vias themselves gets hot, even better with a heatsink.

Yes, it gets quite hot. I believe they are also constructed do dissipate the heat to the board, but I did not do any research in that matter.
In my opinion the regulator heatsink is much more important than chip heatsinks.

i would guess that the regulator is half the size of a chip, but emits 3-4x the heat of a chip
3400  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Where are the new Custom Hardware vendors? on: October 25, 2013, 07:27:47 PM
People are finding out it's not as easy to create a brand new product as they would have you believe, that's what's happening.  Even the people using others IP can't bring products to market (Look at Bicknellski's failed ventures) with all of the parts already laid out for them, much less create anything from scratch.

Surprise!  It actually requires skill, commitment and dedication to create a new product and bring it to market.



1) create product [check]
2) bring to market [....uh....check?]
3) fulfill all pre-orders and sell from in-hand stock [i guess in two weeks...right now you are shipping preorders 2-4months later than initially 'promised'/suggested]
4) take preorders on next-gen product that is rediculously overpriced by today's standards, and promise to deliver it before the 110nm preorders are filled
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