Even with trillions of addresses, there would still be no collision. 2^256 is a very big number, almost as all the atoms in the visible universe.
It's a big number but not as big as you said. 2^256 is 0.12% of the atoms in the visible universe: clickOf course a collision is highly unlikely. It's just as big as I said. I never said it was bigger than every atom in the observable universe. I was saying stars. Which is already a pretty big number, atoms of course is even bigger. |
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You better hope that you exported your trade history + your account balance. Because while it's time to go to court he can just delete the database that has your account balance in it, and you have no proof that you ever deposited to the site.
Better than that i have the localtill deposit Transaction ID #, I have the Bank of America slip, and i have 1.6K missing in my personal accounts (removed as cash) the same exact day. And i have a NYDFS case submitted the next day and 3 days after that it was opened by NYDFS (this is back in april when they closed. Day they close is when i deposited.) As i have said to them and localtill, all this is more than enough info to gather my funds. Localtill finally admitted that they "found/traced my funds" and bitfloor would credit them to my account. But then my bitfloor account doesnt log in. AND when i hit forgot password, it never sends the reset email. When i try it (password reset) with another 100% unused account i get a reset email, even though i absolutely never used this email. Kind of feel its their way of "sticking it to me" because i reported them to NYDFS. So they block me accessing it. And block my password resets. And never respond to my emails. Eventually this will catch up with Roman, if NYDFS decides hes playing games, away he goes (meaning court, payouts, jail, whatever the result). All any of us care for is getting our money back, of which has been gone for 3 almost 4 months. And if someone didnt care about their money, they probably wouldnt be in bitcoin or on this forum. I was petitioning since day 1 that someone should file a case against BitFloor. I can also send you my BoA deposit slip and .csv export of my trading history if you need further proof of balances against him. Why didn't you guys do this months ago? It seems funny that... well, he's finally returning everyone's money, let's file the complaint now... wtf? lol. Why didn't you move forward months ago? Same to you BCB |
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542 USD now  retarded thread Why so mad bro? I did not default my loan. You have $629.10. You won't die now. Now you can go away. |
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5. Since most people believe that collision is possible, then after receiving 0.001 random BTC, they will think, that collision happened (even if it didn't actually happen at all).
I don't think that's the case. Why not? This happened to me, I came here for an answer, and the first answer I got was "collision happened!". I know that collision did not happen, because I understand bitcoin enough, so I did not believe this. If there was someone else in my place, he/she may have very well believed that collision happened, after getting such an answer. Yeah, the first guy was trolling. That's why you got that response. a 4 digit combination lock.
you say it will take 9999 attempts to brute force the lock open.. WRONG. It will take an average of about 5000 tries. Generating a collision with a specific 160 bit address requires an average of 2 159 attempts. so a 4 digit combination lock.. one guy has 0002 i brute for attack starting at 0001 in increments of 1 digit.... found 2nd attempt. now imagine there are 9 other people with random 4 digit combinations.. it is not 9999 chances just to get a used number.. its a MAXIMUM of 9999 chances. and a minimum of 1. there are more then 1 bitcoin address in existence so divide the MAXIMUM possibilities, by the addresses in existance. and you will have a more accurate value of chance to collide.. saying this is not to cause panic. and others trying to fluff over the numbers, hiding the truth wont help either as thats concealing the truth from people. atleast the bitcoin foundation is working on a solution for this, as collisions are a thing to be weary of. EDIT: it would take that high number of chances everyone talks about to find a SPECIFIC address. but to just randomly collide with a used address is much much much lower You keep on talking about a tiny 4 digit number lol. YOU DON'T HAVE A FUCKING CLUE HOW BIG THESE FUCKING NUMBERS ARE. ... really? Now someone took it from a 4 digit number and reduced it to a low 3 digit number lol. You guys need to seriously, take a college level math class that talks about exponents and... zeros. lol. There are so many ways to try and explain this but the people that won't believe it, are probably not mentally capable of figuring out why. |
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5. Since most people believe that collision is possible, then after receiving 0.001 random BTC, they will think, that collision happened (even if it didn't actually happen at all).
I don't think that's the case. some people have no clue about maths and randomness
the only time to truly say that it would take trillions of attempts to collide is if there was only 1 address in existence that had the hex code of all F's and a brute force machine began at 0's in increments of 1 digit.
the reality is that there are millions of people using bitcoin all with atleast 2 addresses, and some merchants ploughing through hundreds of random addresses per day. making the amount of existing addresses quite high.
and those addresses are not at the end of the hex range. they are randomised throughout it.
so it IS POSSIBLE that out of trillions of addresses
the person can come across a used address on the 10th chance of brute forcing. and then never get a second positive result for the rest of the trillion attempts
the person can come across a used address on the 1 millionth chance of brute forcing. and then never get a second positive result for the rest of the trillion attempts
the person can come across a used address on the 1billionth chance of brute forcing. and then never get a second positive result for the rest of the trillion attempts.
research the word RANDOM..
hmm.. if this cannot be comprehended. lets simply it.
a 4 digit combination lock.
you say it will take 9999 attempts to brute force the lock open.. WRONG.
if i have the combination 0002 and another person had combination 0200 and 8 other people had other random numbers..
will it still take 9999 attempts to hit a used number..
it could take 2 chances or 9999 chances or any number inbetween....
your maths of the 2^160 is the MAXIMUM chances.. not the minimum...
collisions can happen..
sorry to inform you of this.. and now you knwo why gavin and TBF crew are dealing with this with version 9 of bitcoin-QT
There is a huge difference that I don't think you understand. You might get some math, and randomness. But you can't even grasp the difference between 1 trillion and 2^160. |
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Note that a bitcoin address collision takes place in a 2160 space, not a 2256, but a 160 bit collision is still unfathomably rare.
Oops. You're right, my bad. Halve the zeros on the chances there, those are your odds, still wildly small. Yes, you misread what I wrote.
I KNOW, that collision is impossible.
When I said "there will be hundreds (of bitcoin users affected)" I meant, that there will be hundreds of users who will receive 0.001 BTC randomly, and therefore, there will be hundreds of users who will THINK, that collision happened.
You misinterpreted my response. It wasn't to convince you, it was for those other people who thunk it. I'm putting it up there for their benefit. |
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Even with trillions of addresses, there would still be no collision. 2^256 is a very big number, almost as all the atoms in the visible universe.
I agree, that collision is (almost) impossible, but this could be used to create panic between those who do not understand bitcoin very well. I think this could potentially be very serious (a social "attack" to ruin bitcoin's reputation?), and should be looked into further. There will be (at least) hundreds of bitcoin users, who will think that their "newly created address" already contains BTC (as I thought at first), and if they are not familiar with bitcoin, they may very well decide it must be an address collision (suspicious fact - the first "answers" to my question "what happened?" were exactly that - "collision!"; luckily I myself know about bitcoin too much, to believe that that was the case, but many others could be easily convinced that it was collision). I said there will be hundreds (of bitcoin users affected), only judging from this one transaction that I know of. In reality, there may have been hundreds of such transactions, ant the number of such users could be tens of thousands. Let's toss a number of stars out there per galaxy. 1 trillion. 10^12 (Galaxies range from 10^7 - 10^14) 1,000,000,000 Let's almost halve the number of galaxies in the observable universe and call it a nice round 100 billion or 10^11 100,000,000 That gives us 10^23 stars in the universe. 2^256 always sounded confusing to me. Let's round it down to a nice even 10^77 power. If you generated as many bitcoin addresses as all the stars in the universe (so the 1 trillion times 100 billion) Then Sha hashes / number of stars in the universe equals Your chances of collision are then 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Give or take a few zeroes because I'm not trying too hard here. So... no, it's not going to happen. If EVERY single person on this planet (round up to 10 billion just for fun) also generated 10^23 addresses... The chance of ONE person generating a collision increases all the way to 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Get the point? |
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I don't have an answer for this. It would be interesting if we could find out who owns it or noticed a pattern with it. Who knows.
I'd still be curious on your rescan though if it turns up an extra 8.
Rescanned it. As I expected, no "extra" BTC. Then I'm wondering if your first post isn't quite accurate. In your transaction list, do you see the 8 btc transaction back in May? Did you create a new address and think it was this one by selecting not the newly created one, but this slightly older one? Also coincidentally, this transaction happened and you didn't notice it until after you made the new address? |
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Has anyone who had less than $3k in bitfloor actually gotten a refund yet?
Just a bunch of high rollers here. No one with less than a million smackers owed to them. |
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your randomly created change address seems to be one of the many millions of addresses already in use. you have just won the lottery.
i suggest not using that address as obviously someone else has it too..
i dont think this is the first time a address 'collision' has occured which is why v9 of bitcoin-QT will start using messaged to allow recognition of transactions, to avoid merchants using fresh addresses per transaction. thus reducing the chances of 'collisions' becoming a regular thing.
most people think that there is no chance of a collision unless you create billions of addresses. the actual fact is that you have 1 chance WITHIN those billions of addresses.. so it could be the 10th address you make or the 9,999,999,999th address or so on.
Even with trillions of addresses, there would still be no collision. 2^256 is a very big number, almost as all the atoms in the visible universe. He probably can't understand how big 256 is let alone 2^256. I didn't even think it was worth arguing it's so stupid and has been discussed endlessly. No, I don't own this address. I agree, that actually it has been public since May (on the blockchain), but I never gave it to anyone as an address to pay to. So, the most realistic explanation that seems possible to me, is the same as yours - that someone randomly sent me 0.001 BTC. Then the question is - WHY?In the same transaction that sent me 0.001, it also sent 0.001 BTC to hundreds of other addresses (and there were a few larger sums too). I can only see two possible explanations to this: 1) someone is trying to create confusion and scare people, by trying to make them to believe, that an address collision has happened (because in theory this COULD be an explanation, although much less possible). 2) someone is trying to "launder" bitcoins, and even goes to the extreme of sending BTC to random people, to better hide the money trail. I don't have an answer for this. It would be interesting if we could find out who owns it or noticed a pattern with it. Who knows. I'd still be curious on your rescan though if it turns up an extra 8. |
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your random address happen to be one of the many millions of addresses already in use. you have just won the lottery. i suggest not using that address as obviously someone else has it too.. i dont think this is the first time a address 'collision' has occured which is why v9 of bitcoin-QT will start using messaged to allow recognition of transactions, to avoid merchants using fresh addresses per transaction. thus reducing the chances of 'collisions' becoming a regular thing. most people think that there is no chance of a collision unless you create billions of addresses. the actual fact is that you have 1 chance WITHIN those billions of addresses.. so it could be the 10th address you make or the 9,999,999,999th address or so on. wtf are you talking about? Stop spreading FUD. |
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UPDATE: The address to which I received 0.001 BTC is https://blockchain.info/address/12k71HDvr3me6ttLr43uMgCCAhgLXNJs8TIt seems to be my "change" address (which was "hidden" inside the client from my view, but used for receiving change before??) because the first transaction to it, is at 2013-05-07 23:54:20, from my other address. BUT! It DOES NOT explain, why, and from where, there is a 2013-07-11 08:00:19 transaction of 0.001 BTC to it. It was about 12 hours ago, and I have not received of sent any BTC for 10 days.Rescan your wallet, there should be over 8 BTC stored on it. Did you ever backup your wallet and restore it? Bitcoin QT pregenerates a bunch of addresses that you never see. If you restored your wallet, you may not have scanned the whole block chain. You might have 8 more coins that you don't know about. Start bitcoin qt up with the -rescan flag. |
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its got 6+ btc in it now, lucky you!
could this be a bug?
No it doesn't, he linked you to the transaction, not the coin address. |
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roflcopter
 Sorry too lazy earlier. For your amusement.  and  |
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Well, anyway. Even if this applied to BTC mining, try stopping someone from doing what they wanna do in the privacy of their own homes. Remember how successful the sodomy law was? I don't.
tmi |
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And chuck e cheese
Sure sounds like they did. If the machine pays tickets, and they can cash those in for prizes, that sure sounds like Chuck E Cheese is toast. |
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542 USD now retarded thread |
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I hope BFL is already mining with the preorders... means the diff won't go up very much when they ship and the revenue will be higher than what we've been calculating!
roflcopter. That has to be the funniest thing I have ever read. I was drinking while browsing this and now my screen has water all over it. Excuse any typos because I can't see the screen very well. |
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How come you made 70% percent loss on S.DICE. Did you not buy at IPO prices? I have like 80% percent back on dividends + I did some day trading with S.DICE shares, but if you bought at IPO you should have like 50% back on dividends (I'm too lazy to search for exact numbers though, so anyone correct me, if I'm wrong).
I don't know. I put 80 BTC onto bitfunder and got 28.3309509 BTC back (including dividends). Turns out it's only a 64.6% loss. Here's how the magic happened, using my patented "buy high, sell low" technique:  Ouch, my numbers weren't as big, but had a similar scenario on bitfunder. I bought in around the same price, but I dumped mine about .0035 so it didn't hurt quite as bad, and I only lost about 3 BTC. Sorry dooglus. Hope just-dice is making it back for you. |
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