Created a new address in bitcoin-qt, and it already contains 0,001 BTC ???

[justusranvier]

Note that a bitcoin address collision takes place in a 2¹⁶⁰ space, not a 2²⁵⁶, but a 160 bit collision is still unfathomably rare.

[1714911935]

1714911935

[1714911935]

1714911935

[1714911935]

1714911935

[1PFYcabWEwZFm2Ez5LGTx3ftz]

Note that a bitcoin address collision takes place in a 2¹⁶⁰ space, not a 2²⁵⁶, but a 160 bit collision is still unfathomably rare.

Let me to sum up and repeat:
1. I know that collision is impossible.
2. Most people do not know that collision is impossible.
3. In the transaction which sent 0.001 to my address, there were also hundreds of other addresses, to which 0.001 BTC was sent.
4. At least hundreds of people will receive random 0.001 BTC.
5. Since most people believe that collision is possible, then after receiving 0.001 random BTC, they will think, that collision happened (even if it didn't actually happen at all).
6. These hundreds of people will start to PANIC!!!
7. That is why this should be addressed/discussed/explained.

In real life analogy, this would be similar to someone walking around and throwing money at random people. If this actually happened in real life, I believe it would cause a HUGE panic, especially if left unexplained.

[wtfvanity]

Note that a bitcoin address collision takes place in a 2¹⁶⁰ space, not a 2²⁵⁶, but a 160 bit collision is still unfathomably rare.

Oops. You're right, my bad. Halve the zeros on the chances there, those are your odds, still wildly small.

Yes, you misread what I wrote.

I KNOW, that collision is impossible.

When I said "there will be hundreds (of bitcoin users affected)" I meant, that there will be hundreds of users who will receive 0.001 BTC randomly, and therefore, there will be hundreds of users who will THINK, that collision happened.

You misinterpreted my response. It wasn't to convince you, it was for those other people who thunk it. I'm putting it up there for their benefit.

[franky1]

some people have no clue about maths and randomness

the only time to truly say that it would take trillions of attempts to collide is if there was only 1 address in existence that had the hex code of all F's and a brute force machine began at 0's in increments of 1 digit.

the reality is that there are millions of people using bitcoin all with atleast 2 addresses, and some merchants ploughing through hundreds of random addresses per day. making the amount of existing addresses quite high.

and those addresses are not at the end of the hex range. they are randomised throughout it.

so it IS POSSIBLE that out of trillions of addresses

the person can come across a used address on the 10th chance of brute forcing. and then never get a second positive result for the rest of the trillion attempts

the person can come across a used address on the 1 millionth chance of brute forcing. and then never get a second positive result for the rest of the trillion attempts

the person can come across a used address on the 1billionth chance of brute forcing. and then never get a second positive result for the rest of the trillion attempts.

research the word RANDOM..

hmm.. if this cannot be comprehended. lets simply it.

a 4 digit combination lock.

you say it will take 9999 attempts to brute force the lock open.. WRONG.

if i have the combination 0002 and another person had combination 0200 and 8 other people had other random numbers..

will it still take 9999 attempts to hit a used number..

it could take 2 chances or 9999 chances or any number inbetween....

your maths of the 2^160 is the MAXIMUM chances.. not the minimum...

collisions can happen..

sorry to inform you of this.. and now you knwo why gavin and TBF crew are dealing with this with version 9 of bitcoin-QT

[1PFYcabWEwZFm2Ez5LGTx3ftz]

You misinterpreted my response. It wasn't to convince you, it was for those other people who thunk it. I'm putting it up there for their benefit.

Ah, sorry then. My bad

[wtfvanity]

5. Since most people believe that collision is possible, then after receiving 0.001 random BTC, they will think, that collision happened (even if it didn't actually happen at all).

I don't think that's the case.

some people have no clue about maths and randomness

the only time to truly say that it would take trillions of attempts to collide is if there was only 1 address in existence that had the hex code of all F's and a brute force machine began at 0's in increments of 1 digit.

the reality is that there are millions of people using bitcoin all with atleast 2 addresses, and some merchants ploughing through hundreds of random addresses per day. making the amount of existing addresses quite high.

and those addresses are not at the end of the hex range. they are randomised throughout it.

so it IS POSSIBLE that out of trillions of addresses

the person can come across a used address on the 10th chance of brute forcing. and then never get a second positive result for the rest of the trillion attempts

the person can come across a used address on the 1 millionth chance of brute forcing. and then never get a second positive result for the rest of the trillion attempts

the person can come across a used address on the 1billionth chance of brute forcing. and then never get a second positive result for the rest of the trillion attempts.

research the word RANDOM..

hmm.. if this cannot be comprehended. lets simply it.

a 4 digit combination lock.

you say it will take 9999 attempts to brute force the lock open.. WRONG.

if i have the combination 0002 and another person had combination 0200 and 8 other people had other random numbers..

will it still take 9999 attempts to hit a used number..

it could take 2 chances or 9999 chances or any number inbetween....

your maths of the 2^160 is the MAXIMUM chances.. not the minimum...

collisions can happen..

sorry to inform you of this.. and now you knwo why gavin and TBF crew are dealing with this with version 9 of bitcoin-QT

There is a huge difference that I don't think you understand. You might get some math, and randomness. But you can't even grasp the difference between 1 trillion and 2^160.

[justusranvier]

a 4 digit combination lock.

you say it will take 9999 attempts to brute force the lock open.. WRONG.

It will take an average of about 5000 tries.

Generating a collision with a specific 160 bit address requires an average of 2¹⁵⁹ attempts.

[1PFYcabWEwZFm2Ez5LGTx3ftz]

5. Since most people believe that collision is possible, then after receiving 0.001 random BTC, they will think, that collision happened (even if it didn't actually happen at all).

I don't think that's the case.

Why not? This happened to me, I came here for an answer, and the first answer I got was "collision happened!".

I know that collision did not happen, because I understand bitcoin enough, so I did not believe this.

If there was someone else in my place, he/she may have very well believed that collision happened, after getting such an answer.

[franky1]

a 4 digit combination lock.

you say it will take 9999 attempts to brute force the lock open.. WRONG.

It will take an average of about 5000 tries.

Generating a collision with a specific 160 bit address requires an average of 2¹⁵⁹ attempts.

so a 4 digit combination lock.. one guy has 0002

i brute for attack starting at 0001 in increments of 1 digit.... found 2nd attempt.

now imagine there are 9 other people with random 4 digit combinations..

it is not 9999 chances just to get a used number.. its a MAXIMUM of 9999 chances. and a minimum of 1.

there are more then 1 bitcoin address in existence so divide the MAXIMUM possibilities, by the addresses in existance. and you will have a more accurate value of chance to collide..

saying this is not to cause panic. and others trying to fluff over the numbers, hiding the truth wont help either as thats concealing the truth from people. atleast the bitcoin foundation is working on a solution for this, as collisions are a thing to be weary of.

EDIT: it would take that high number of chances everyone talks about to find a SPECIFIC address. but to just randomly collide with a used address is much much much lower

[binaryFate]

Let's be conservative, and assume all human beings on earth would use one billion BTC addresses each. If that's not conservative enough, I don't know what you need!

Then, the probability to generate a collision for a new address is still roughly 2e29. That is a 2 and then 29 zeros behind. That is a hundreds of billions of billions of billions. Forget about this possibility.

For franky1, you keep saying that because they are spread over the interval, a collision gets much more likely, but it does not dramatically reduce the probability as you seem to believe. In your example of 10000 possibilities, if there are 10 addresses in use, there are 1/1000 chance of collision, and on average you need to test 500 to find a collision. I did the same calculation in the large number above.

Additionally, forget about people spending money to "spread fear that a collision can occur". Only very few people would react in the same naive or paranoid way as you do, don't generalize.

My guess is you played satoshidice or something similar. It happens that the payout takes several days.

[TiagoTiago]

Unlikely doesn't mean impossible. It can happen, but odds are it won't. It's like flipping a coin and having it rest on it's edge, but even less likely; the odds are so low that you can say it is "impossible" and only the more pedantic will correct you.

[1PFYcabWEwZFm2Ez5LGTx3ftz]

Additionally, forget about people spending money to "spread fear that a collision can occur". Only very few people would react in the same naive or paranoid way as you do, don't generalize.
My guess is you played satoshidice or something similar. It happens that the payout takes several days.

I came here, asked what happened, and the first answer was "collision happened".

I did not believe this answer, but is it really so naive or paranoid to believe, that most people would trust the answer, if it was given to them?

Besides, did you even read my post? What satoshidice has to do with anything, if I explained, that this address was never purposefully used? Why would satoshidice send BTC to random addresses? And no, I never played satoshidice or any gambling games, on any of my addresses (but even if I did, your "guess" would still be irrelevant).

_{p.s. offtopic - autocorrect suggestion for "satoshidice" - "dictatorship"}  

[1PFYcabWEwZFm2Ez5LGTx3ftz]

Unlikely doesn't mean impossible. It can happen, but odds are it won't. It's like flipping a coin and having it rest on it's edge, but even less likely; the odds are so low that you can say it is "impossible" and only the more pedantic will correct you.

It's more like a possibility of flipping a coin, and having it freeze in mid air. Or the possibility of all oxygen molecules around you bouncing away from you at the same time, and you suffocating. It CAN happen, but for any practical purposes it is impossible.

[justusranvier]

so a 4 digit combination lock.. one guy has 0002

i brute for attack starting at 0001 in increments of 1 digit.... found 2nd attempt.

now imagine there are 9 other people with random 4 digit combinations..

it is not 9999 chances just to get a used number.. its a MAXIMUM of 9999 chances. and a minimum of 1.

there are more then 1 bitcoin address in existence so divide the MAXIMUM possibilities, by the addresses in existance. and you will have a more accurate value of chance to collide..

saying this is not to cause panic. and others trying to fluff over the numbers, hiding the truth wont help either as thats concealing the truth from people. atleast the bitcoin foundation is working on a solution for this, as collisions are a thing to be weary of.

EDIT: it would take that high number of chances everyone talks about to find a SPECIFIC address. but to just randomly collide with a used address is much much much lower

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_attack#Mathematics

[Explodicle]

Regarding panic: the list of people who know what a collision is AND are incredibly bad at math is very small.

Other similarly plausible alternatives include (but are not limited to):

• OP's computer got hacked, and the hacker sent them the coins either accidentally or for the lulz.
• Santa Claus was watching and sent him his present early.
• He is dreaming that he won 8 BTC, and none of us really exist.

[needbmw]

I also received 0.001 to one of my addresses from 1DSu8QqECJFFx9vmTp1MiT3PqHND6LLyTx.
I think it is dirty money and sender want to taint coins as much as possible.

[jackjack]

Regarding panic: the list of people who know what a collision is AND are incredibly bad at math is very small.

Indeed


Enjoy your stupidity franky: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=246544.msg2614500#msg2614500

[wtfvanity]

5. Since most people believe that collision is possible, then after receiving 0.001 random BTC, they will think, that collision happened (even if it didn't actually happen at all).

I don't think that's the case.

Why not? This happened to me, I came here for an answer, and the first answer I got was "collision happened!".

I know that collision did not happen, because I understand bitcoin enough, so I did not believe this.

If there was someone else in my place, he/she may have very well believed that collision happened, after getting such an answer.

Yeah, the first guy was trolling. That's why you got that response.

a 4 digit combination lock.

you say it will take 9999 attempts to brute force the lock open.. WRONG.

It will take an average of about 5000 tries.

Generating a collision with a specific 160 bit address requires an average of 2¹⁵⁹ attempts.

so a 4 digit combination lock.. one guy has 0002

i brute for attack starting at 0001 in increments of 1 digit.... found 2nd attempt.

now imagine there are 9 other people with random 4 digit combinations..

it is not 9999 chances just to get a used number.. its a MAXIMUM of 9999 chances. and a minimum of 1.

there are more then 1 bitcoin address in existence so divide the MAXIMUM possibilities, by the addresses in existance. and you will have a more accurate value of chance to collide..

saying this is not to cause panic. and others trying to fluff over the numbers, hiding the truth wont help either as thats concealing the truth from people. atleast the bitcoin foundation is working on a solution for this, as collisions are a thing to be weary of.

EDIT: it would take that high number of chances everyone talks about to find a SPECIFIC address. but to just randomly collide with a used address is much much much lower

You keep on talking about a tiny 4 digit number lol.

YOU DON'T HAVE A FUCKING CLUE HOW BIG THESE FUCKING NUMBERS ARE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_attack#Mathematics

... really? Now someone took it from a 4 digit number and reduced it to a low 3 digit number lol.

You guys need to seriously, take a college level math class that talks about exponents and... zeros. lol.

Regarding panic: the list of people who know what a collision is AND are incredibly bad at math is very small.

Indeed


Enjoy your stupidity franky: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=246544.msg2614500#msg2614500

There are so many ways to try and explain this but the people that won't believe it, are probably not mentally capable of figuring out why.

[Abdussamad]

Even with trillions of addresses, there would still be no collision. 2^256 is a very big number, almost as all the atoms in the visible universe.

It's a big number but not as big as you said. 2^256 is 0.12% of the atoms in the visible universe:

click

Of course a collision is highly unlikely.

[wtfvanity]

Even with trillions of addresses, there would still be no collision. 2^256 is a very big number, almost as all the atoms in the visible universe.

It's a big number but not as big as you said. 2^256 is 0.12% of the atoms in the visible universe:

click

Of course a collision is highly unlikely.

It's just as big as I said. I never said it was bigger than every atom in the observable universe. I was saying stars. Which is already a pretty big number, atoms of course is even bigger.