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341  Other / Politics & Society / Re: 7 Things to Consider Before Choosing Sides in the Middle East Conflict on: August 18, 2014, 01:47:36 PM
I have no interest in picking either side. Let them kill each other.
It's fine if you have no interest in picking sides; but it does seem a bit masochistic to suggest that you are content to simply "let them kill each other" when them doing so damages our own national security interests.
342  Economy / Economics / Re: What have you invested since the recession and how are they doing? on: August 18, 2014, 01:28:09 PM
One thing I should add, I have been shifting a higher percentage of my TIA to emerging markets, especially Africa and other areas with expected high demographic growth. A lot of the stock market gains of the 20th century was fueled by demographic growth, as opposed to economic growth. With demographic growth now stagnant or negative in most developed economies, it seems to me that investing in places with expected high demographic growth is the only way to keep a get a good exposure to that area of growth.
Phoenix housing market is hitting a plateau. it was one of the leading bubbles during the last recession.another bubble?
343  Economy / Economics / Re: What have you invested since the recession and how are they doing? on: August 18, 2014, 01:24:38 PM
real estate, stocks, anything?

the recession dealt quite a bit of damage to me. so i chickened out and mostly missed the boat.

i guess i will catch up with ya on the next downswing
I buy and hold index funds, so my performance has been almost exactly the same as the market. But I started a new, higher paying job in September 2008, so I had a lot of free cash flow and put every red cent I had into stocks (through index funds) when they were cheap. I timed the market in that respect.

I don't own any real estate, bonds or bond funds, individual stocks, precious metals, or anything else. The simple reason is that they are either more expensive, more work or have weaker performance than stocks, or all three (for example, in the case of real estate).
But of you bought a house you could live in it while waiting for it to turn profit. A house holds value a lot better than stocks. And even if the value goes down to a worthless level, you can still make use (and profit) of it unlike stocks .The key question is, when did you start investing
A residence is a nonperforming asset. It does not generate any profit. And the rate of return on residential real estate is vastly inferior to stocks--about half in real numbers, even lower in real return. That's not to mention the lack of liquidity in residential real estate and all of the taxes, upkeep, insurance, etc. It is also, as many learned in the past 6 years, among the least diversified and most risky ways to hold capital. 1992, but in a more serious way in 1996.

Residential real estate does provide a rental yield (profit), which can be attributed to a homeowner's returns. But real estate investors have a lot of delusion about the superiority of their (inferior) assets. Public equity does outperform residential real estate, and especially on a risk-adjusted basis, given the lack of scope for diversification in real estate investments.
The psyche of the average investor is a strange thing. Everyone knows that you should buy low and sell high and, as Buffett is always quoted, be greedy when everyone is scared and scared when everyone is greedy. But in practice people tend to do the exact opposite. They tend to be willing to take on more risk and buy more stock when prices are high, when they should be eating up risk in bear markets instead. The one good thing is it creates opportunities for bear market buyers.
because you never know when it's "low" or "high" regardless of how high or low it really is.
True, attempting to time the market is always risky business. But a bear market is easily defined and even easier to spot, so it's not hard to buy in a bear market. Don't be too concerned with buying at the absolute low or selling at the absolute high.
No. You can't identify the "real" bear or bull market, just like you can't determine whether today's price is low, or high. in the past five years alone, there have been many moments where the market can be interpreted either way.
344  Economy / Economics / Re: What have you invested since the recession and how are they doing? on: August 18, 2014, 01:14:49 PM
real estate, stocks, anything?

the recession dealt quite a bit of damage to me. so i chickened out and mostly missed the boat.

i guess i will catch up with ya on the next downswing
I buy and hold index funds, so my performance has been almost exactly the same as the market. But I started a new, higher paying job in September 2008, so I had a lot of free cash flow and put every red cent I had into stocks (through index funds) when they were cheap. I timed the market in that respect.

I don't own any real estate, bonds or bond funds, individual stocks, precious metals, or anything else. The simple reason is that they are either more expensive, more work or have weaker performance than stocks, or all three (for example, in the case of real estate).
But of you bought a house you could live in it while waiting for it to turn profit. A house holds value a lot better than stocks. And even if the value goes down to a worthless level, you can still make use (and profit) of it unlike stocks .The key question is, when did you start investing
A residence is a nonperforming asset. It does not generate any profit. And the rate of return on residential real estate is vastly inferior to stocks--about half in real numbers, even lower in real return. That's not to mention the lack of liquidity in residential real estate and all of the taxes, upkeep, insurance, etc. It is also, as many learned in the past 6 years, among the least diversified and most risky ways to hold capital. 1992, but in a more serious way in 1996.

Residential real estate does provide a rental yield (profit), which can be attributed to a homeowner's returns. But real estate investors have a lot of delusion about the superiority of their (inferior) assets. Public equity does outperform residential real estate, and especially on a risk-adjusted basis, given the lack of scope for diversification in real estate investments.
The psyche of the average investor is a strange thing. Everyone knows that you should buy low and sell high and, as Buffett is always quoted, be greedy when everyone is scared and scared when everyone is greedy. But in practice people tend to do the exact opposite. They tend to be willing to take on more risk and buy more stock when prices are high, when they should be eating up risk in bear markets instead. The one good thing is it creates opportunities for bear market buyers.
because you never know when it's "low" or "high" regardless of how high or low it really is.
345  Other / Off-topic / For those of you who don't live close, how often do you call your parents? on: August 18, 2014, 12:53:20 PM
Daily, Weekly, Monthly? Less?
346  Economy / Services / Re: [DiceBitco.in] [Make the most out of your sig!] Make coins by simply posting! on: August 18, 2014, 06:54:48 AM
PD is changing alot there are going to be members looking for spots now, im sure now alt accounts will now be worthless in this move. 
347  Economy / Services / Re: [PrimeDice] [Highest Paid Signature] Earn Bitcoins Simply By Posting on: August 18, 2014, 06:53:09 AM
This a bad move, the  part with keeping senior members is fine, but if you turn this to afixed rate, it could turn ugly cause you will lose gamblers and advertisers,  I thin this might make alot of people angry.  Im not part of this campaign and thank I am not lol
348  Other / Politics & Society / Re: 7 Things to Consider Before Choosing Sides in the Middle East Conflict on: August 16, 2014, 08:01:34 PM
7 Things to Consider Before Choosing Sides in the Middle East Conflict
    Ali A. Rizvi | July 28, 2014

    Are you "pro-Israel" or "pro-Palestine"? It isn't even noon yet as I write this, and I've already been accused of being both.

    These terms intrigue me because they directly speak to the doggedly tribal nature of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. You don't hear of too many other countries being universally spoken of this way. Why these two? Both Israelis and Palestinians are complex, with diverse histories and cultures, and two incredibly similar (if divisive) religions. To come down completely on the side of one or the other doesn't seem rational to me.

    It is telling that most Muslims around the world support Palestinians, and most Jews support Israel. This, of course, is natural -- but it's also problematic. It means that this is not about who's right or wrong as much as which tribe or nation you are loyal to. It means that Palestinian supporters would be just as ardently pro-Israel if they were born in Israeli or Jewish families, and vice versa. It means that the principles that guide most people's view of this conflict are largely accidents of birth -- that however we intellectualize and analyze the components of the Middle East mess, it remains, at its core, a tribal conflict.

    By definition, tribal conflicts thrive and survive when people take sides. Choosing sides in these kinds of conflicts fuels them further and deepens the polarization. And worst of all, you get blood on your hands.

    So before picking a side in this latest Israeli-Palestine conflict, consider these 7 questions.


    ***


    1. Why is everything so much worse when there are Jews involved?

    Over 700 people have died in Gaza as of this writing. Muslims have woken up around the world. But is it really because of the numbers?

    Bashar al-Assad has killed over 180,000 Syrians, mostly Muslim, in two years -- more than the number killed in Palestine in two decades. Thousands of Muslims in Iraq and Syria have been killed by ISIS in the last two months. Tens of thousands have been killed by the Taliban. Half a million black Muslims were killed by Arab Muslims in Sudan. The list goes on.

    But Gaza makes Muslims around the world, both Sunni and Shia, speak up in a way they never do otherwise. Up-to-date death counts and horrific pictures of the mangled corpses of Gazan children flood their social media timelines every day. If it was just about the numbers, wouldn't the other conflicts take precedence? What is it about then?

    If I were Assad or ISIS right now, I'd be thanking God I'm not Jewish.

    Amazingly, many of the graphic images of dead children attributed to Israeli bombardment that are circulating online are from Syria, based on a BBC report [link]. Many of the pictures you're seeing are of children killed by Assad, who is supported by Iran, which also funds Hezbollah and Hamas. What could be more exploitative of dead children than attributing the pictures of innocents killed by your own supporters to your enemy simply because you weren't paying enough attention when your own were killing your own?

    This doesn't, by any means, excuse the recklessness, negligence [link], and sometimes outright cruelty of Israeli forces [link]. But it clearly points to the likelihood that the Muslim world's opposition to Israel isn't just about the number of dead.

    Here is a question for those who grew up in the Middle East and other Muslim-majority countries like I did: if Israel withdrew from the occupied territories tomorrow, all in one go -- and went back to the 1967 borders -- and gave the Palestinians East Jerusalem -- do you honestly think Hamas wouldn't find something else to pick a fight about? Do you honestly think that this has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they are Jews? Do you recall what you watched and heard on public TV growing up in Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Egypt?

    Yes, there's an unfair and illegal occupation there, and yes, it's a human rights disaster. But it is also true that much of the other side is deeply driven by anti-Semitism. Anyone who has lived in the Arab/Muslim world for more than a few years knows that. It isn't always a clean, one-or-the-other blame split in these situations like your Chomskys and Greenwalds would have you believe. It's both.


    ***


    2. Why does everyone keep saying this is not a religious conflict?

    There are three pervasive myths that are widely circulated about the "roots" of the Middle East conflict:

    Myth 1: Judaism has nothing to do with Zionism.
    Myth 2: Islam has nothing to do with Jihadism or anti-Semitism.
    Myth 3: This conflict has nothing to do with religion.

    To the "I oppose Zionism, not Judaism!" crowd, is it mere coincidence that this passage from the Old Testament (emphasis added) describes so accurately what's happening today?

        "I will establish your borders from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean Sea, and from the desert to the Euphrates River. I will give into your hands the people who live in the land, and you will drive them out before you. Do not make a covenant with them or with their gods." - Exodus 23:31-32

    Or this one?

        "See, I have given you this land. Go in and take possession of the land the Lord swore he would give to your fathers -- to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob -- and to their descendants after them." - Deuteronomy 1:8

    There's more: Genesis 15:18-21, and Numbers 34 for more detail on the borders. Zionism is not the "politicization" or "distortion" of Judaism. It is the revival of it.

    And to the "This is not about Islam, it's about politics!" crowd, is this verse from the Quran (emphasis added) meaningless?

        "O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you--then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people." - Quran, 5:51

    What about the numerous verses and hadith quoted in Hamas' charter? [link] And the famous hadith of the Gharqad tree explicitly commanding Muslims to kill Jews? [link]

    Please tell me -- in light of these passages written centuries and millennia before the creation of Israel or the occupation -- how can anyone conclude that religion isn't at the root of this, or at least a key driving factor? You may roll your eyes at these verses, but they are taken very seriously by many of the players in this conflict, on both sides. Shouldn't they be acknowledged and addressed? When is the last time you heard a good rational, secular argument supporting settlement expansion in the West Bank?

    Denying religion's role seems to be a way to be able to criticize the politics while remaining apologetically "respectful" of people's beliefs for fear of "offending" them. [link] But is this apologism and "respect" for inhuman ideas worth the deaths of human beings?

    People have all kinds of beliefs -- from insisting the Earth is flat to denying the Holocaust. You may respect their right to hold these beliefs, but you're not obligated to respect the beliefs themselves. It's 2014, and religions don't need to be "respected" any more than any other political ideology or philosophical thought system. Human beings have rights. Ideas don't. The oft-cited politics/religion dichotomy in Abrahamic religions is false and misleading. All of the Abrahamic religions are inherently political.


    ***


    3. Why would Israel deliberately want to kill civilians?

    This is the single most important issue that gets everyone riled up, and rightfully so.

    Again, there is no justification for innocent Gazans dying. And there's no excuse for Israel's negligence in incidents like the killing of four children on a Gazan beach. But let's back up and think about this for a minute.

    Why on Earth would Israel deliberately want to kill civilians?

    When civilians die, Israel looks like a monster. It draws the ire of even its closest allies. [link] Horrific images of injured and dead innocents flood the media. Ever-growing anti-Israel protests are held everywhere from Norway to New York. And the relatively low number of Israeli casualties (we'll get to that in a bit) repeatedly draws allegations of a "disproportionate" response. Most importantly, civilian deaths help Hamas immensely.

    How can any of this possibly ever be in Israel's interest?

    If Israel wanted to kill civilians, it is terrible at it. ISIS killed more civilians in two days (700 plus) than Israel has in two weeks. Imagine if ISIS or Hamas had Israel's weapons, army, air force, US support, and nuclear arsenal. Their enemies would've been annihilated long ago. If Israel truly wanted to destroy Gaza, it could do so within a day, right from the air. Why carry out a more painful, expensive ground incursion that risks the lives of its soldiers?


    ***


    4. Does Hamas really use its own civilians as human shields?

    Ask Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas how he feels about Hamas' tactics.

    "What are you trying to achieve by sending rockets?" he asks. "I don't like trading in Palestinian blood." [link]

    It isn't just speculation anymore that Hamas puts its civilians in the line of fire.

    Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri plainly admitted on Gazan national TV that the human shield strategy has proven "very effective." [link]

    The UN relief organization UNRWA issued a furious condemnation of Hamas after discovering hidden rockets in not one, but two children's schools in Gaza last week. [link]

    Hamas fires thousands of rockets into Israel, rarely killing any civilians or causing any serious damage. It launches them from densely populated areas, including hospitals and schools.

    Why launch rockets without causing any real damage to the other side, inviting great damage to your own people, then putting your own civilians in the line of fire when the response comes? Even when the IDF warns civilians to evacuate their homes before a strike, why does Hamas tell them to stay put? [link]

    Because Hamas knows its cause is helped when Gazans die. If there is one thing that helps Hamas most -- one thing that gives it any legitimacy -- it is dead civilians. Rockets in schools. Hamas exploits the deaths of its children to gain the world's sympathy. It uses them as a weapon.

    You don't have to like what Israel is doing to abhor Hamas. Arguably, Israel and Fatah are morally equivalent. Both have a lot of right on their side. Hamas, on the other hand, doesn't have a shred of it.


    ***


    5. Why are people asking for Israel to end the "occupation" in Gaza?

    Because they have short memories.

    In 2005, Israel ended the occupation in Gaza. It pulled out every last Israeli soldier. It dismantled every last settlement. Many Israeli settlers who refused to leave were forcefully evicted from their homes, kicking and screaming. [link]

    This was a unilateral move by Israel, part of a disengagement plan intended to reduce friction between Israelis and Palestinians. [link] It wasn't perfect -- Israel was still to control Gaza's borders, coastline, and airspace -- but considering the history of the region, it was a pretty significant first step.

    After the evacuation, Israel opened up border crossings to facilitate commerce. The Palestinians were also given 3,000 greenhouses which had already been producing fruit and flowers for export for many years. [link]

    But Hamas chose not to invest in schools, trade, or infrastructure. Instead, it built an extensive network of tunnels [link] to house thousands upon thousands of rockets and weapons, including newer, sophisticated ones [link] from Iran and Syria. All the greenhouses were destroyed.

    Hamas did not build any bomb shelters for its people. It did, however, build a few for its leaders to hide out in during airstrikes. [link] Civilians are not given access to these shelters for precisely the same reason Hamas tells them to stay home when the bombs come. [link]

    Gaza was given a great opportunity in 2005 that Hamas squandered by transforming it into an anti-Israel weapons store instead of a thriving Palestinian state that, with time, may have served as a model for the future of the West Bank as well. If Fatah needed yet another reason to abhor Hamas, here it was.


    ***


    6. Why are there so many more casualties in Gaza than in Israel?

    The reason fewer Israeli civilians die is not because there are fewer rockets raining down on them. It's because they are better protected by their government.

    When Hamas' missiles head towards Israel, sirens go off, the Iron Dome goes into effect, and civilians are rushed into bomb shelters. When Israeli missiles head towards Gaza, Hamas tells civilians to stay in their homes and face them. [link]

    While Israel's government urges its civilians to get away from rockets targeted at them, Gaza's government urges its civilians to get in front of missiles not targeted at them. [link]

    The popular explanation for this is that Hamas is poor and lacks the resources to protect its people like Israel does. The real reason, however, seems to have more to do with disordered priorities than deficient resources (see #5). This is about will, not ability. All those rockets, missiles, and tunnels aren't cheap to build or acquire. But they are priorities. And it's not like Palestinians don't have a handful of oil-rich neighbors [link] to help them the way Israel has the US.

    The problem is, if civilian casualties in Gaza drop, Hamas loses the only weapon it has in its incredibly effective PR war. It is in Israel's national interest to protect its civilians and minimize the deaths of those in Gaza. It is in Hamas' interest to do exactly the opposite on both fronts.


    ***


    7. If Hamas is so bad, why isn't everyone pro-Israel in this conflict?

    Because Israel's flaws, while smaller in number, are massive in impact.

    Many Israelis seem to have the same tribal mentality that their Palestinian counterparts do. They celebrate the bombing of Gaza [link] the same way many Arabs celebrated 9/11. A UN report recently found that Israeli forces tortured Palestinian children and used them as human shields. [link] They beat up teenagers. [link] They are often reckless with their airstrikes. [link] They have academics who explain how rape may be the only truly effective weapon against their enemy. [link] And many of them callously and publicly revel in the deaths of innocent Palestinian children. [link]

    To be fair, these kinds of things do happen on both sides. They are an inevitable consequence of multiple generations raised to hate the other over the course of 65 plus years. To hold Israel up to a higher standard would mean approaching the Palestinians with the racism of lowered expectations.

    However, if Israel holds itself to a higher standard like it claims -- it needs to do much more to show it isn't the same as the worst of its neighbors.

    Israel is leading itself towards increasing international isolation and national suicide because of two things: 1. The occupation; and 2. Settlement expansion.

    Settlement expansion is simply incomprehensible. No one really understands the point of it. Virtually every US administration -- from Nixon to Bush to Obama -- has unequivocally opposed it. [link] There is no justification for it except a Biblical one (see #2), which makes it slightly more difficult to see Israel's motives as purely secular.

    The occupation is more complicated. The late Christopher Hitchens was right when he said this about Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories: [link]

        "In order for Israel to become part of the alliance against whatever we want to call it, religious barbarism, theocratic, possibly thermonuclear theocratic or nuclear theocratic aggression, it can't, it'll have to dispense with the occupation. It's as simple as that.

        It can be, you can think of it as a kind of European style, Western style country if you want, but it can't govern other people against their will. It can't continue to steal their land in the way that it does every day.And it's unbelievably irresponsible of Israelis, knowing the position of the United States and its allies are in around the world, to continue to behave in this unconscionable way. And I'm afraid I know too much about the history of the conflict to think of Israel as just a tiny, little island surrounded by a sea of ravening wolves and so on. I mean, I know quite a lot about how that state was founded, and the amount of violence and dispossession that involved. And I'm a prisoner of that knowledge. I can't un-know it."

    As seen with Gaza in 2005, unilateral disengagement is probably easier to talk about than actually carry out. But if it Israel doesn't work harder towards a two-state (maybe three-state, thanks to Hamas) solution, it will eventually have to make that ugly choice between being a Jewish-majority state or a democracy.

    It's still too early to call Israel an apartheid state, but when John Kerry said Israel could end up as one in the future, [link] he wasn't completely off the mark. It's simple math. There are only a limited number of ways a bi-national Jewish state with a non-Jewish majority population can retain its Jewish identity. And none of them are pretty.


    ***


    Let's face it, the land belongs to both of them now. Israel was carved out of Palestine for Jews with help from the British in the late 1940s just like my own birthplace of Pakistan was carved out of India for Muslims around the same time. The process was painful, and displaced millions in both instances. But it's been almost 70 years. There are now at least two or three generations of Israelis who were born and raised in this land, to whom it really is a home, and who are often held accountable and made to pay for for historical atrocities that are no fault of their own. They are programmed to oppose "the other" just as Palestinian children are. At its very core, this is a tribal religious conflict that will never be resolved unless people stop choosing sides.

    So you really don't have to choose between being "pro-Israel" or "pro-Palestine." If you support secularism, democracy, and a two-state solution -- and you oppose Hamas, settlement expansion, and the occupation -- you can be both.

    If they keep asking you to pick a side after all of that, tell them you're going with hummus.

    Source: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=5602701
Sorry if this is off topic, but after posting in topics along with you and reading your posts/topics I found I really like the way you think.

Anyhow I love how this topic has been positioned to explain all the little nuances and information that relates to this conflict.

Have a nice day umair127 Wink
Thank you,as the topic says ,is good to get your information on both sides before you choose one,and this is what i don,and i want others to understand it too.I look forward to talk with you!Have a nice day also!
349  Other / Politics & Society / 7 Things to Consider Before Choosing Sides in the Middle East Conflict on: August 16, 2014, 07:35:19 PM
7 Things to Consider Before Choosing Sides in the Middle East Conflict
    Ali A. Rizvi | July 28, 2014

    Are you "pro-Israel" or "pro-Palestine"? It isn't even noon yet as I write this, and I've already been accused of being both.

    These terms intrigue me because they directly speak to the doggedly tribal nature of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. You don't hear of too many other countries being universally spoken of this way. Why these two? Both Israelis and Palestinians are complex, with diverse histories and cultures, and two incredibly similar (if divisive) religions. To come down completely on the side of one or the other doesn't seem rational to me.

    It is telling that most Muslims around the world support Palestinians, and most Jews support Israel. This, of course, is natural -- but it's also problematic. It means that this is not about who's right or wrong as much as which tribe or nation you are loyal to. It means that Palestinian supporters would be just as ardently pro-Israel if they were born in Israeli or Jewish families, and vice versa. It means that the principles that guide most people's view of this conflict are largely accidents of birth -- that however we intellectualize and analyze the components of the Middle East mess, it remains, at its core, a tribal conflict.

    By definition, tribal conflicts thrive and survive when people take sides. Choosing sides in these kinds of conflicts fuels them further and deepens the polarization. And worst of all, you get blood on your hands.

    So before picking a side in this latest Israeli-Palestine conflict, consider these 7 questions.


    ***


    1. Why is everything so much worse when there are Jews involved?

    Over 700 people have died in Gaza as of this writing. Muslims have woken up around the world. But is it really because of the numbers?

    Bashar al-Assad has killed over 180,000 Syrians, mostly Muslim, in two years -- more than the number killed in Palestine in two decades. Thousands of Muslims in Iraq and Syria have been killed by ISIS in the last two months. Tens of thousands have been killed by the Taliban. Half a million black Muslims were killed by Arab Muslims in Sudan. The list goes on.

    But Gaza makes Muslims around the world, both Sunni and Shia, speak up in a way they never do otherwise. Up-to-date death counts and horrific pictures of the mangled corpses of Gazan children flood their social media timelines every day. If it was just about the numbers, wouldn't the other conflicts take precedence? What is it about then?

    If I were Assad or ISIS right now, I'd be thanking God I'm not Jewish.

    Amazingly, many of the graphic images of dead children attributed to Israeli bombardment that are circulating online are from Syria, based on a BBC report [link]. Many of the pictures you're seeing are of children killed by Assad, who is supported by Iran, which also funds Hezbollah and Hamas. What could be more exploitative of dead children than attributing the pictures of innocents killed by your own supporters to your enemy simply because you weren't paying enough attention when your own were killing your own?

    This doesn't, by any means, excuse the recklessness, negligence [link], and sometimes outright cruelty of Israeli forces [link]. But it clearly points to the likelihood that the Muslim world's opposition to Israel isn't just about the number of dead.

    Here is a question for those who grew up in the Middle East and other Muslim-majority countries like I did: if Israel withdrew from the occupied territories tomorrow, all in one go -- and went back to the 1967 borders -- and gave the Palestinians East Jerusalem -- do you honestly think Hamas wouldn't find something else to pick a fight about? Do you honestly think that this has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they are Jews? Do you recall what you watched and heard on public TV growing up in Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Egypt?

    Yes, there's an unfair and illegal occupation there, and yes, it's a human rights disaster. But it is also true that much of the other side is deeply driven by anti-Semitism. Anyone who has lived in the Arab/Muslim world for more than a few years knows that. It isn't always a clean, one-or-the-other blame split in these situations like your Chomskys and Greenwalds would have you believe. It's both.


    ***


    2. Why does everyone keep saying this is not a religious conflict?

    There are three pervasive myths that are widely circulated about the "roots" of the Middle East conflict:

    Myth 1: Judaism has nothing to do with Zionism.
    Myth 2: Islam has nothing to do with Jihadism or anti-Semitism.
    Myth 3: This conflict has nothing to do with religion.

    To the "I oppose Zionism, not Judaism!" crowd, is it mere coincidence that this passage from the Old Testament (emphasis added) describes so accurately what's happening today?

        "I will establish your borders from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean Sea, and from the desert to the Euphrates River. I will give into your hands the people who live in the land, and you will drive them out before you. Do not make a covenant with them or with their gods." - Exodus 23:31-32

    Or this one?

        "See, I have given you this land. Go in and take possession of the land the Lord swore he would give to your fathers -- to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob -- and to their descendants after them." - Deuteronomy 1:8

    There's more: Genesis 15:18-21, and Numbers 34 for more detail on the borders. Zionism is not the "politicization" or "distortion" of Judaism. It is the revival of it.

    And to the "This is not about Islam, it's about politics!" crowd, is this verse from the Quran (emphasis added) meaningless?

        "O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you--then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people." - Quran, 5:51

    What about the numerous verses and hadith quoted in Hamas' charter? [link] And the famous hadith of the Gharqad tree explicitly commanding Muslims to kill Jews? [link]

    Please tell me -- in light of these passages written centuries and millennia before the creation of Israel or the occupation -- how can anyone conclude that religion isn't at the root of this, or at least a key driving factor? You may roll your eyes at these verses, but they are taken very seriously by many of the players in this conflict, on both sides. Shouldn't they be acknowledged and addressed? When is the last time you heard a good rational, secular argument supporting settlement expansion in the West Bank?

    Denying religion's role seems to be a way to be able to criticize the politics while remaining apologetically "respectful" of people's beliefs for fear of "offending" them. [link] But is this apologism and "respect" for inhuman ideas worth the deaths of human beings?

    People have all kinds of beliefs -- from insisting the Earth is flat to denying the Holocaust. You may respect their right to hold these beliefs, but you're not obligated to respect the beliefs themselves. It's 2014, and religions don't need to be "respected" any more than any other political ideology or philosophical thought system. Human beings have rights. Ideas don't. The oft-cited politics/religion dichotomy in Abrahamic religions is false and misleading. All of the Abrahamic religions are inherently political.


    ***


    3. Why would Israel deliberately want to kill civilians?

    This is the single most important issue that gets everyone riled up, and rightfully so.

    Again, there is no justification for innocent Gazans dying. And there's no excuse for Israel's negligence in incidents like the killing of four children on a Gazan beach. But let's back up and think about this for a minute.

    Why on Earth would Israel deliberately want to kill civilians?

    When civilians die, Israel looks like a monster. It draws the ire of even its closest allies. [link] Horrific images of injured and dead innocents flood the media. Ever-growing anti-Israel protests are held everywhere from Norway to New York. And the relatively low number of Israeli casualties (we'll get to that in a bit) repeatedly draws allegations of a "disproportionate" response. Most importantly, civilian deaths help Hamas immensely.

    How can any of this possibly ever be in Israel's interest?

    If Israel wanted to kill civilians, it is terrible at it. ISIS killed more civilians in two days (700 plus) than Israel has in two weeks. Imagine if ISIS or Hamas had Israel's weapons, army, air force, US support, and nuclear arsenal. Their enemies would've been annihilated long ago. If Israel truly wanted to destroy Gaza, it could do so within a day, right from the air. Why carry out a more painful, expensive ground incursion that risks the lives of its soldiers?


    ***


    4. Does Hamas really use its own civilians as human shields?

    Ask Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas how he feels about Hamas' tactics.

    "What are you trying to achieve by sending rockets?" he asks. "I don't like trading in Palestinian blood." [link]

    It isn't just speculation anymore that Hamas puts its civilians in the line of fire.

    Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri plainly admitted on Gazan national TV that the human shield strategy has proven "very effective." [link]

    The UN relief organization UNRWA issued a furious condemnation of Hamas after discovering hidden rockets in not one, but two children's schools in Gaza last week. [link]

    Hamas fires thousands of rockets into Israel, rarely killing any civilians or causing any serious damage. It launches them from densely populated areas, including hospitals and schools.

    Why launch rockets without causing any real damage to the other side, inviting great damage to your own people, then putting your own civilians in the line of fire when the response comes? Even when the IDF warns civilians to evacuate their homes before a strike, why does Hamas tell them to stay put? [link]

    Because Hamas knows its cause is helped when Gazans die. If there is one thing that helps Hamas most -- one thing that gives it any legitimacy -- it is dead civilians. Rockets in schools. Hamas exploits the deaths of its children to gain the world's sympathy. It uses them as a weapon.

    You don't have to like what Israel is doing to abhor Hamas. Arguably, Israel and Fatah are morally equivalent. Both have a lot of right on their side. Hamas, on the other hand, doesn't have a shred of it.


    ***


    5. Why are people asking for Israel to end the "occupation" in Gaza?

    Because they have short memories.

    In 2005, Israel ended the occupation in Gaza. It pulled out every last Israeli soldier. It dismantled every last settlement. Many Israeli settlers who refused to leave were forcefully evicted from their homes, kicking and screaming. [link]

    This was a unilateral move by Israel, part of a disengagement plan intended to reduce friction between Israelis and Palestinians. [link] It wasn't perfect -- Israel was still to control Gaza's borders, coastline, and airspace -- but considering the history of the region, it was a pretty significant first step.

    After the evacuation, Israel opened up border crossings to facilitate commerce. The Palestinians were also given 3,000 greenhouses which had already been producing fruit and flowers for export for many years. [link]

    But Hamas chose not to invest in schools, trade, or infrastructure. Instead, it built an extensive network of tunnels [link] to house thousands upon thousands of rockets and weapons, including newer, sophisticated ones [link] from Iran and Syria. All the greenhouses were destroyed.

    Hamas did not build any bomb shelters for its people. It did, however, build a few for its leaders to hide out in during airstrikes. [link] Civilians are not given access to these shelters for precisely the same reason Hamas tells them to stay home when the bombs come. [link]

    Gaza was given a great opportunity in 2005 that Hamas squandered by transforming it into an anti-Israel weapons store instead of a thriving Palestinian state that, with time, may have served as a model for the future of the West Bank as well. If Fatah needed yet another reason to abhor Hamas, here it was.


    ***


    6. Why are there so many more casualties in Gaza than in Israel?

    The reason fewer Israeli civilians die is not because there are fewer rockets raining down on them. It's because they are better protected by their government.

    When Hamas' missiles head towards Israel, sirens go off, the Iron Dome goes into effect, and civilians are rushed into bomb shelters. When Israeli missiles head towards Gaza, Hamas tells civilians to stay in their homes and face them. [link]

    While Israel's government urges its civilians to get away from rockets targeted at them, Gaza's government urges its civilians to get in front of missiles not targeted at them. [link]

    The popular explanation for this is that Hamas is poor and lacks the resources to protect its people like Israel does. The real reason, however, seems to have more to do with disordered priorities than deficient resources (see #5). This is about will, not ability. All those rockets, missiles, and tunnels aren't cheap to build or acquire. But they are priorities. And it's not like Palestinians don't have a handful of oil-rich neighbors [link] to help them the way Israel has the US.

    The problem is, if civilian casualties in Gaza drop, Hamas loses the only weapon it has in its incredibly effective PR war. It is in Israel's national interest to protect its civilians and minimize the deaths of those in Gaza. It is in Hamas' interest to do exactly the opposite on both fronts.


    ***


    7. If Hamas is so bad, why isn't everyone pro-Israel in this conflict?

    Because Israel's flaws, while smaller in number, are massive in impact.

    Many Israelis seem to have the same tribal mentality that their Palestinian counterparts do. They celebrate the bombing of Gaza [link] the same way many Arabs celebrated 9/11. A UN report recently found that Israeli forces tortured Palestinian children and used them as human shields. [link] They beat up teenagers. [link] They are often reckless with their airstrikes. [link] They have academics who explain how rape may be the only truly effective weapon against their enemy. [link] And many of them callously and publicly revel in the deaths of innocent Palestinian children. [link]

    To be fair, these kinds of things do happen on both sides. They are an inevitable consequence of multiple generations raised to hate the other over the course of 65 plus years. To hold Israel up to a higher standard would mean approaching the Palestinians with the racism of lowered expectations.

    However, if Israel holds itself to a higher standard like it claims -- it needs to do much more to show it isn't the same as the worst of its neighbors.

    Israel is leading itself towards increasing international isolation and national suicide because of two things: 1. The occupation; and 2. Settlement expansion.

    Settlement expansion is simply incomprehensible. No one really understands the point of it. Virtually every US administration -- from Nixon to Bush to Obama -- has unequivocally opposed it. [link] There is no justification for it except a Biblical one (see #2), which makes it slightly more difficult to see Israel's motives as purely secular.

    The occupation is more complicated. The late Christopher Hitchens was right when he said this about Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories: [link]

        "In order for Israel to become part of the alliance against whatever we want to call it, religious barbarism, theocratic, possibly thermonuclear theocratic or nuclear theocratic aggression, it can't, it'll have to dispense with the occupation. It's as simple as that.

        It can be, you can think of it as a kind of European style, Western style country if you want, but it can't govern other people against their will. It can't continue to steal their land in the way that it does every day.And it's unbelievably irresponsible of Israelis, knowing the position of the United States and its allies are in around the world, to continue to behave in this unconscionable way. And I'm afraid I know too much about the history of the conflict to think of Israel as just a tiny, little island surrounded by a sea of ravening wolves and so on. I mean, I know quite a lot about how that state was founded, and the amount of violence and dispossession that involved. And I'm a prisoner of that knowledge. I can't un-know it."

    As seen with Gaza in 2005, unilateral disengagement is probably easier to talk about than actually carry out. But if it Israel doesn't work harder towards a two-state (maybe three-state, thanks to Hamas) solution, it will eventually have to make that ugly choice between being a Jewish-majority state or a democracy.

    It's still too early to call Israel an apartheid state, but when John Kerry said Israel could end up as one in the future, [link] he wasn't completely off the mark. It's simple math. There are only a limited number of ways a bi-national Jewish state with a non-Jewish majority population can retain its Jewish identity. And none of them are pretty.


    ***


    Let's face it, the land belongs to both of them now. Israel was carved out of Palestine for Jews with help from the British in the late 1940s just like my own birthplace of Pakistan was carved out of India for Muslims around the same time. The process was painful, and displaced millions in both instances. But it's been almost 70 years. There are now at least two or three generations of Israelis who were born and raised in this land, to whom it really is a home, and who are often held accountable and made to pay for for historical atrocities that are no fault of their own. They are programmed to oppose "the other" just as Palestinian children are. At its very core, this is a tribal religious conflict that will never be resolved unless people stop choosing sides.

    So you really don't have to choose between being "pro-Israel" or "pro-Palestine." If you support secularism, democracy, and a two-state solution -- and you oppose Hamas, settlement expansion, and the occupation -- you can be both.

    If they keep asking you to pick a side after all of that, tell them you're going with hummus.

    Source: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=5602701
350  Other / Politics & Society / Re: How dangerous is Isis [Islamic State] to America? on: August 16, 2014, 07:00:44 PM
The best thing to have done was to never have gotten involved with the Middle East at all.  Except for defending Israel on Israel's soil, we should have stayed out of any mid east country.  They are nomads, barbaric, and have always fought one another.  Brother against brother, uncle against nephew, tribe against tribe.  Keep them out of Israel and ignore everything else.  With no interference, they will continue to kill each other.  Without a common enemy, they will never stick together.  But with a common enemy, they will fight the enemy.  Leave them alone and they will turn on each other.
Defending Israel is one of the main reasons for attacking us. That and the fact that the US is mainly Christian is all it takes for Islam to hate America.
Yes, but defending Israel from within its borders is different than being in the mid east countries themselves.  Maintain a presence but stay within Israel.
We could help them defend the Golan Heights, and let the Israelis use their air power.
351  Other / Politics & Society / Re: How dangerous is Isis [Islamic State] to America? on: August 16, 2014, 06:50:16 PM
The best thing to have done was to never have gotten involved with the Middle East at all.  Except for defending Israel on Israel's soil, we should have stayed out of any mid east country.  They are nomads, barbaric, and have always fought one another.  Brother against brother, uncle against nephew, tribe against tribe.  Keep them out of Israel and ignore everything else.  With no interference, they will continue to kill each other.  Without a common enemy, they will never stick together.  But with a common enemy, they will fight the enemy.  Leave them alone and they will turn on each other.
352  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Israel: Operation Protective Edge on: August 16, 2014, 06:15:11 PM
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...558338,00.html

Egypt wants Palestinian Authority to supplant Hamas in Gaza
Cairo proposes deployment of PA security forces into Gaza border perimeter with Israel, moving handling of Strip finances to Abbas.
Elior Levy
Published: 08.13.14, 14:13 / Israel News

Palestinian sources have leaked the latest Egyptian ceasefire proposal on Wednesday, which envisions the Palestinian Authority supplanting Hamas in Gaza. Cairo has called on both sides to accept the proposal by midnight, when the current 72-hour truce ends.


The points covered in the draft document are as follows:

1. Talks on the building of a seaport and airport for Gaza will be postponed in one month, after the situation between the two sides stabilizes. In addition, talks on prisoner releases and the returning of the bodies of IDF soldiers Oron Shaul and Hadar Holdin will also be postponed.

2. The border crossings between Israel and the Gaza Strip will be opened to movement of both goods and people. Construction materials to rebuild the Strip will be allowed in, and Israel will also authorize the import and export of goods between the Gaza Strip and the west Bank. This, under the terms agreed on between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

3. The border perimeter (the buffer zone on the Gaza border which Palestinians are not allowed to enter, will be cancelled. Palestinian Authority security forces will enter the area instead, as of January 1, 2015.
The perimeter will be gradually reduced: at first to a distance of 300 meters from the border, and in three months (in November) to 100 meters. The second phase will end with the deployment of PA troops to the area.

4. Gaza's fishing area will be gradually expanded from 6 miles to 12 - that will be done in coordination with Israel and the Palestinian Authority. The PA will also coordinate Gaza's financial issues with Israel.

Egypt called on both sides to accept and commit to its proposal by midnight Wednesday, when the current 72-hour ceasefire comes to an end.

The Palestinian side still won't accept these terms, and has demanded to amend it.


The Palestinian sources have not mentioned the opening of the Rafah border crossing, and it was unclear whether this issue will be included in this agreement, or in a separate Egyptian-Palestinian agreement without Israeli involvement.
Ynet is such a biased news source. Don't get me wrong, I'll read it, but it is greatly anti-Palestinian in its reporting. And yet it is heavily there. Just take a look at the article that you posted.
I do not see an anti-Palestinian bias on Ynet and JPost. I find them both unbiased. But I do see a very right-wing lean on Arutz Sheva. Arutz Sheva is openly pro-settler.

Note: I am pro-Israel but not pro-settlement.
353  Other / Politics & Society / Justifications for Gaza on: August 16, 2014, 11:48:03 AM
The IDF launched "Operation Protective Edge" on the 8th of July, more than a month ago. The operation involved shelling and a ground offensive.

More than 1800 people have died in Gaza, 3 civilians have died in Israel. 64 members of the IDF have died.

The UN estimate that more than 68% of the Palestinian dead are civilians, including 377 children and 196 women. The UN says that 2744 children have been injured - and they're referring to war wounds, not bruises. But what do these statistics mean?

Sadly, I feel that these numbers do not do justice to those dead and injured children - those children were not terrorists... perhaps their siblings or relatives may become terrorists in response to the grief they are carrying.

Children were playing on Gaza beach and were hit by a shell. They were playing on a beach. That's a disturbing mental image. When you see pictures of tiny corpses wrapped in cloth or children with shrapnel wounds and missing limbs. That is disturbing footage. And when I think of how many families in Gaza must be in anguish - how many mothers have held their baby's corpses? How many father's have lost their sons? How many children have lost their siblings? That is a disturbing reality, one which has compelled me to write this entry.

I have an 8 year old sister. If she died of an illness I would be distraught. However if she was murdered while she was playing in the park, I'm not even sure how I would feel - how can I guess how I would I feel in that situation? And I can only think that my mother would breakdown. Yet the appalling truth is that many people have numbed themselves to the suffering of the Palestinians.

I've stumbled across some deplorable justifications for the actions of the IDF in Gaza on social media and in articles. I'll run through a few and give my blunt opinion on them:

1) "Civilian casualties are a reality of warfare". These people are dressing up the phrase "shit happens". They're forgetting another reality: that Gaza is a strip of land - (hence Gaza strip) densely populated and can simply not be shelled without civilian casualties. The actions of the IDF have proven that the Israeli government are indifferent to the death of civilians in Gaza.

2) "There are far more people dying in conflicts within Arab countries such as Syria". Since when was it a contest? This opinion confuses me. It reminds of me of the debate around drug abuse, for instance heroin overdoses. Someone might say: "Well, far more people are dying from alcohol poisoning". That doesn't mean that heroin overdoses aren't an issue! What is that person suggesting: that it's worse to die from alcohol poisoning? Or maybe that alcohol poisoning is a "bigger" issue based on the number of deaths? To simply dismiss the conflict in Gaza is an insult to the civilians (many of whom were children) who have died there.

3) "The IDF's actions were justified - Hamas were firing rockets into Israel". It is true that Hamas were firing rockets into Israel. 3 Israeli citizens were killed by Hamas rockets and the lives of Israeli citizens were disrupted by rocket alarms. But does that justify the murder of 377 children? Does that justify injuring 2744 children? Can the murder of children ever be justified?? Those children weren't firing the rockets, and those injured (war wounds, not bruises) kids might not even have homes to return to... IDF shells killed those children. Was the IDF response proportionate? Does the IDF have the right to repeatedly violate UN resolutions?

A few interesting facts, people and perspectives:

The US government gave the IDF $8.5 million per day of 2013.

Gerald Kaufman - Jewish Labour MP , very heavy in his criticism of the Israeli government but not without a degree of validity

Gideon Levy - an Israeli journalist
354  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crash: Boeing 777 Crashed in Ukraine Near Russian Border on: August 16, 2014, 11:40:37 AM
Russia seems to violate Ukraine's borders on a regular basis with such vehicles. This time Ukraine shelled them.
355  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crash: Boeing 777 Crashed in Ukraine Near Russian Border on: August 16, 2014, 11:39:35 AM
The Pro-Russian separatists want a cease-fire now that Donetsk is surrounded.

Russia said it may intervene with a humanitarian convoy. Ukraine said that it destroyed part of an armored convoy that came in from Russia into Ukraine.
356  Other / Off-topic / Re: What is your biggest fear in life? v. Real Talk on: August 16, 2014, 11:37:47 AM
I previously did not fear diminished memory or mental capacity. Then, I got hit by a car and had a traumatic brain injury that temporarily destroyed by short term memory and kinda fucked up my long term memory. I was fine when I had no idea that I was a repetitive idiot but as I started getting better, I'd realize that I was repeating myself or that I should be following wtf people were getting at and it was incredibly unnerving. Now, I'm fine but it's one of my top fears, for sure. Fuck any kind of neuro degenerative anything.

Before that, pretty much all I feared was disappointing people I cared about.
357  Other / Politics & Society / Re: greatest speech i heard in a long time on: August 15, 2014, 05:58:15 PM
I have not laughed and cried so hard in a long time. I laughed because 99% of everything said here is true and the ones your rallying against will use your own video against you. I cried because it seems very real that even the anarchists are WAITING for the sheeple to all suddenly grow a brain. Your playing into the hands of those that already know what people as HUMANS are like and until you , the anarchist, realize that humans want to be lead around by their nose, you will never get anywhere as a group.
358  Economy / Economics / Re: What have you invested since the recession and how are they doing? on: August 15, 2014, 05:16:14 PM
Banks.Not American banks, however.Primary industry.
359  Other / Politics & Society / Re: State Atheism on: August 15, 2014, 11:31:51 AM
Have I or have I not at least acknowledged that you are asking me a question (repeatedly) and I have repeatedly attempted to answer it even if not to your satisfaction?

How about acknowledging my questions or even....crazy thought.....answering them?  Pretending they aren't there will not make them go away.

Im going to press you on this as long as you have the balls to come back here and pretend I have not answered you while ignoring me altogether.

umair is correct in everything you have thus far provided thus far.....which is absolutely nothing.   However, I dont view my actions as enabling you, I view them as continually exposing you.
You only have to do that one time to make a point. Anything more is just redundant.
 zolace is morally reprehensible; has no intellectual or moral credibility. He is basically dishonest to the point of telling out-right lies on behalf of other liars to support his views. zolace makes himself willfully blind/refuses to acknowledge facts/data that do not fit his paranoid/delusional state of mind.


I do hold both you and zolace guilty of wasting bandwidth space.
360  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Israel: Operation Protective Edge on: August 15, 2014, 11:23:08 AM
can someone (ie. sana) explain to me how these ceasefires work, who on both sides is involved, who sets the terms, is something signed, etc.?
Then you have other factions operating in Gaza that hate both Israel and Hamas. Your more Salafi / Al Qaeda style operations and operations based on family clan structures; examples being: the Armies of Monotheism and Jihad in Palestine, the Army of Islam, and the Swords of Truth.

Likewise you have such groups stationed in the Sinai in Egypt as well (example: Ansar Jerusalem).

Verbal agreements are usually given for short ceasefires like this. Larger ones can be signed.

The larger ones though generally consist of more than simply not firing at each other, mainly because Hamas requires it. They will usually say something about the blockade, its restrictions, and the opening of crossing, most specifically Rafah for use.

Usually when the larger ceasefires are violated, they are violated long before violence escalates; deals reached with Hamas in Gaza also haven't historically applied to Hamas members in the West Bank which is another large cause of friction.
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