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<ad hominem nonsense snipped>
You want your refund, yeah we get it. The rest of us are recalculating based on btc pricing and looking at ROI time shortening significantly.
Oh really? I've seen more refund requests than 'i want my chips' requests since 29th of August. But apparently you know more  Apparently I do, if you check the numbers, they are still heavily on the I want my chips side. I dont think the excel sheet although self appointed has even reached 1/3rd of 1 batch yet. jasinlee, good point about the spreadsheet, however I don't think it fully supports the claim that people are "heavily on the I want my chips side". It's an unofficial poll, just to serve as a registry of interest (if I understand correctly). 1. Some people may not bother, on account of it being unofficial. 2. Others may not want to post their transaction IDs and stake publicly. 3. There were no explicit options for "I definitely want my chips" or "I'm waiting for steamboat" or "I want the chips only if they're delivered before XX/YY date", so there is no way to distinguish between those. 4. Isn't the percentage of buyers actively following this thread also unknown? 5. It also doesn't speak to the funds already paid for PCB & assembly at all, and steamboat hasn't yet clarified what's gong to happen with this. It's quite reasonable for those who have paid to wait to respond until they understand the full scope of their options. In summary, AFAIK you may be right, but that isn't proof. |
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There is something to be said about Steamboat being the only group buy manager not willing to provide refunds when it seems to be the norm among all others.
I have the impression that the other group buy coordinators don't have as much sunk (unrecoverable) costs in the PCB & assembly as steamboat. Correct? I'm not drawing any conclusions, just trying to get a fact straight. |
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Yifu,
Groups of people have built up businesses around your product and your promise (9-10 weeks "no bullshit"), and you still haven't had the decency to even explain what happened, and why you were unable to meet your commitment. Just hand-waving and diversions--some mafia allegedly after you--but you couldn't make a peep for the entire time?--and some small percentage of the amount of chips ordered were allegedly held up in customs, for some small portion of the time that they were already late.
Then you have the gall to (1) continue to handwave and not explain, (2) call your customers greedy for being rightfully upset with you, and (3) only offer a refund of what they paid you for the chips--despite knowing full well that there are other other sunk unrecoverable costs surrounding this disaster.
So how about you start by showing some good faith and telling us WHAT the fuck HAPPENED, and WHY you were unable to meet your commitment?
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Does this mean the end of the INTERWEBZ?
The end of COMPUTORS??
You mean com-putors? Can we please stop with the waste of space posts like these? This thread is noisy enough as it is. Add something useful to the discussion, or don't post. |
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Please keep in mind that Yufi is not Avalon. He is a dumb PR whose best business plan was to resell low cost tablets from China (do you remember the interview?).
For as much as we know, he could be forced by nzhang to do what he did.
Where is him, BTW? Still sick (another excuse used to delay batch 2?)
Who is nzhang? |
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[snip] We are only asking for refunds on what we payed for chips - steamboat actually made profit on the chip sales alone (10% each batch). [snip] I am in batch #5 and I want a refund. We need to come up with an organized way on how this would work.
I welcome anyone wanting a refund to start adding themselves to the google doc below, including: amount of chips, batch number, and your official transaction id.Hopefully we can get enough users to report and get close to a full batch of chips. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Au277u2T6_H3dHBpYWxKRVpDMmVBVDlXaW9MNUFialE&usp=sharingit's locked. Fixed, sorry about that There are a lot of moving parts here. Personally, I'd want to hear from steamboat on what our options are, especially as it relates to what we've already paid for assembly/shipping--before I'd commit to asking for a chip refund. |
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By trying(!) to get involved in Bitcoin mining, there are two things in particular I've been hoping for: (1) that the Bitcoin/mining community would be an example of a large group of technically-minded people working together to accomplish something great*; and (2) that I'd make some money. As to (2)--making money--I don't expect to get rich quick--or at all, really. But I did not contribute funds to this venture as a charity case, intending to lose it all. I understand there are risks, and I accepted most of them. However, I do not consider the current situation a risk that we should have had to account for, as I explained here. Regarding (1): succeeding as a community with this great Bitcoin (mining) experiment requires that we don't repeatedly allow ourselves to be screwed by liars, cheaters, incompetents, malfeasants, and the like. Avalon's failure to deliver anywhere close to their "no BS" 9-10 week stated time frame, and their lack of good faith effort to provide adequate explanation for the delays--with proof--has me thinking that they are one or more of these things. Judging by this shitstorm, it looks to me like Yifu won't do anything to make things right without pressure being applied. So, how do we band together, and what do we want? IMO, any of the following would be acceptable: 1. Chips delivered (by some TBD deadline), plus financial compensation (USD or BTC). 2. Full chip refund, plus additional financial compensation (USD or BTC). Steamboat does whatever he can to provide a (partial) refund for assembly/PCBs. 3. (1) for some batches, and (2) for others. 4. A lawsuit that results in Avalon paying financial restitution, going out of business, and Avalon stakeholders are personally penalized for unfair dealings**. 5. Some combination of these. For solution 4, I could live with spending more money (to pay for a lawyer), on top of what we've already spent/lost here, if it serves as a deterrent to undesirable would-be mining equipment vendors. This would be a benefit to the community in the long run. The lawsuit may or may not result in adequate compensation for our losses due to Avalon's failures. Steamboat, I hope you're at least brainstorming with zefir on these things. * I hope we'll "accomplish something great", by enabling Bitcoin to thrive--with all its benefits and value for convenience and commerce, and as an experiment of a deflationary currency with a hard supply limit. ** "Best case" scenario of the "unfair dealings" is that they have some legitimate explanation for it all, but made no effort to communicate verifiable truth to us. |
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I can't imagine anything but sending the first 10k chips to batch 1 customers and so on.
Spoken like a true batch one buyer  But seriously, IMO the chips from each batch belong the the purchasers of THAT SPECIFIC BATCH. If later batches come in before "my" batch, I'd expect to see those buyers get the chips. I have no claim to them, since I didn't purchase them. As has already been stated, the buyers in each batch assumed the risks of THAT batch. I'm not keen on giving chips from "my" batch to another buyer, and I wouldn't expect THEM to give ME their chips. We are being told to act like big boys, wait for our chips and take our lumps. So we sure as heck shouldn't be re-allocating chips from one batch to another, to ease earlier buyers risk. I certainly hope none of this happens, so that this unfortunate conversation becomes irrelevant. However, considering recent events, I hope steamboat will clarify what he would do in these cases. While I admit I am in later batches, I do think cardcomm's suggestion is fair. Doing otherwise unfairly increases the risk for those in later batches. So you guys are saying,if the order# on the box recieved is for batch 3 chips,they get thiers first??? I'm in batch 3 & would be uncomfortable with this.................. First batch recieved goes to the first batch buyers......regardless of order # on the box  Its only fair. Y I FU has screwed us,not our fellows in the other batch orders or Steamboat................ I think I see what you're saying, and you'd be trying to correct Yifu's screw-up, which--right or wrong--would make some sense. However, what happens if one of the batches never arrives at all, and Avalon never makes it right? In any scenario where at least one batch never arrives, then batch 6 buyers never gets their chips. Does that seem fair to you? Still, ionstorm does bring up an interesting point, which further complicates things. I personally am undecided on whether I agree. The other question is this: the funds from batch 1 and 2 as well as assembly costs were used to acquire PCB and components, labor and fund everything through batch 4 minus the chips. Assembly should still be done in order of who purchased assembly. So if batch 5 comes first it would be allot less than fair for them to get assembled units sooner than batch 1. So batch 1 and 2 paid for assembly through batch 4 and that should be theirs. I believe steamboat should have people wait or ship them their chips
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I was just looking over Avalon's "The no bullshit, no fine print terms of sale" again in an effort to determine specifically which terms were breached. 9 to 10 weeks lead time. |
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if the chips are proven to be with customs there really is no breach of contract and its out of yifu's hands
Except, his update said: "there is currently ~200k chips stuck in custom right at this moment for about 2 weeks now". How many chips have been ordered? Isn't this a small portion of the number of chips ordered, like 20%? Even if 200k accounted for all of the chips that have been delayed to date, 2 weeks doesn't account for the whole time. Steamboat's batch 1 is what, 6 weeks late and counting? Also, as others have said, when you run a business, it's your responsibility to know (or learn how) to deal with these things, and get your products to your customers in a timely fashion. For example, maybe Yifu didn't file some paperwork properly--in which case, even the customs delay could be his fault. |
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You can try and "apply pressure", but that's not going to happen in a tribunal. It could last for years, cost a bunch and they could still decide to bankrupt the company (good luck getting your BTC back).
If Yifu is really full of shit as it appears, then this would be a better outcome than letting them continue to do business. If you feel you must cut your losses, do so. Invest in something that will bring you a safe, decent return.
That is not cutting my losses--unless you want to buy my chips and assembly back from me at cost, so I can go invest those funds elsewhere. |
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we all know what we got into. I got into a risky investment. The risk was reasonably thought to be based on difficulty of the network growing, unproven board designs, and steamboat himself, as I don't think we knew of his track record. As far as I knew at the time, Avalon had delivered their miners on time, and they were working as advertised. They stated in their "no bullshit" terms on the chips that "the lead time on the chips is 9 to 10 weeks." It's been..16? That is breach of contract, it is not what I signed up for, it is most certainly not something we knowingly got into. Yifu gave some bullshit half-assed excuses, which doesn't even adequately explain the situation--without proof, and without even an actual ETA. (There is "chips will resume shipping by end of next week", which doesn't even tell us how late they will actually be, etc.) Yifu appears to be trying to pull a fast one, and it has cost you and me and many others money, it was not a known risk, and you just want to bend over and take it, and let him get away with it, and you want all of us to do the same?  Boggles my mind. |
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Batch #4 chip owners, ATTENTION
As an owner of 219 chips in Batch #4, I'd like to opt for a refund, demanded from Avalon by steamboat.
Anybody else in Batch #4 who wants to join me in this statement and demand full refund for their order?
I'm with you on the refund (Batch #4 256 chips), however I have also paid for assembly and I do not feel like Steamboat deserves to be left holding the bag. I would rather keep my chips (or some alternative answer, like credit toward gen2, additional chips, discount on chips, etc) so that there is no complication involving the assembly portion of the cost. Steamboat has done a fantastic job and deserves to be treated with respect. Boxman90 has not demanded, asked, or requested that steamboat refund his assembly. I am guessing that was on purpose. I second the motion (64 chips batch 6; 48 in batch 5 by proxy). I will add an idea, in an attempt to minimize our losses, but also treat steamboat fairly: steamboat cancels as much as possible of the orders for parts for assembly / supporting hardware, to recoup as much of that as possible. He subtracts the profit that he had planned to make on the assembly from whatever is recovered, and then divides that proportionally among those who had ordered the assembly. |
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"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing." (source unknown) I would like to see a response from Yifu to anyone already requesting refunds. I do not even need to go looking at posts in the thread he started the other day to know that everyone is simply defecating on him and his face will continue to grin. This is what I was explaining before, you are wasting your time. Even if everyone demanded refunds you would likely have to wait for the refund, if he ever gave it. And if he ever gave it, a bank run would likely ensue and then most likely everyone would be SOL. I agree a refund would be preferable, but the likelihood of that ever happening are slim.
Is this how you live your life? Get shit on, and roll over and take it, because it's hopeless? It's been suggested in one of the posts I mentioned above that a prerequisite to obtaining any legal relief would be a good faith effort to obtain a refund. Are you not even willing to let other people try on your behalf? Do you not care about justice being done? If Yifu is really lying and essentially stealing from us--as it seems he is--are you really satisfied to let him get away with it, and continue to carry on his business? ETA: And to let others see that they can get away with it too? ETA2: "I would like to see a response from Yifu to anyone already requesting refunds." I would like to see it too, but I don't think it's going to happen without forcing his hand, which is why I'm advocating for that. Also, even if he does, I'd be surprised if it's anywhere near satisfactory in light of the damage already done. |
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Here is a screenshot of the contract that Avalon/Bitsyncom/Yifu breached: their " no bullshit, no fine print terms of sale". They are far beyond the stated lead time. What's the point in getting chip refunds when we've already paid for assembly etc? I'd rather have a miner with chips in it than a miner without chips sitting on my desk.
Yes, so would I - If I got them in a timely manner. But I DON'T want miners even WITH chips in them at a cost of $325+ US each if they are only earning pennies a day. If you're losing money on them, it makes no sense to have them. One way to look at it is this: I get a refund on the chips, the assembler keeps the assembly costs that I've already paid, but refunds the overnight shipping (since he's not gonna ship me anything). I've lost the assembly costs, but I've regained the chip cost. Even that undesirable outcome would probably result in more actual cash back in my pocket than waiting for my batch 4 miners to arrive sometime in oh... let's just say October? Gee, I wonder what the difficulty will be at then... (I realize this scenario would potentially present somewhat of a windfall for the assemblers - they would have to eat parts cost, but would be spared the cost of having boards manufactured. It'd sure be ironic if the only people to make money are the assemblers, for not assembling...) I agree with a lot of what you said, if we could recover the chip cost plus I think at least 1/2 of the assembly costs (which is more than reasonable) then walking away with ~75% of your initial investment (a ~25% loss) is better than having H/W that does not return as much. I could go for this. But at this point I don't think a chip refund is possible, does anyone seriously think Yifu will send tens of thousands of BTC back, not happening. Only thing to do is wait for steamboat to receive the chips and support him in getting the H/W out as fast as possible.
Don't give up so easily! If we roll over and admit defeat, then it's sure to happen. The community needs to ban together, stand up, and HOLD YIFU's FEET TO THE FIRE. See this thread: Get a REFUND from Yifu for Avalon chips, especially posts 21, 69 through 73, 75, 77-78, 80. steamboat, it seems you've done a real stand-up job in getting things together, but none of us accounted for Yifu's breach of contract. I agree with cardcomm, and others here saying that "wait patiently" is not going to cut it anymore. What have you done, what are you doing, and what will you do to help us minimize our losses? |
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Has anyone seen the latest project next difficulty level? The situation is looking quite bleak. This delay has already killed our ROI.
The only profits left at this point are for the assemblers / group buy leaders. The chips will probably ship eventually, the assemblers will build and ship out then worthless products. Everyone will have "fulfilled their obligations". The assemblers and group buy leaders will have their profits, and the end users will be the proud new owners of equipment worth far less than they paid for it.
Rinse and repeat, and that's the Bitcoin mining hardware business in a nutshell.
I'm a small buyer in one of the later batches. I know my opinion counts for zip in this matter. Yet I'd like to go on record and state that I strongly disagree with Steamboat's "wait and see attitude". Yes, if we wait long enough, we'll probably get the chips. But what's the point by then?
Steamboat has stated he will continue to monitor the situation. I'm not even sure what that means. If that means he's exploring civil and law enforcement intervention, then fine. If it means he's monitoring his email for news on when Avalon may decide to ship, that's not good enough!
The excuses in Avalon's latest statement are hard to believe at best. Frankly, IMO It's one of the most absurd official company lies I've ever seen. It's clearly a ploy to get us off his back for a couple more weeks. AND WE ARE DOING JUST WHAT HE WANTS! Yifu is acting like a spoiled child trying to get his way, and we are letting him get away with it.
Ideally, I'd like to see all the group buy leaders get together and take a united stance. I feel that is our best chance at a timely resolution. Combined, they should have enough leverage to get things moving.
Barring that happening, I'd like to see Steamboat step up and say just a little bit more than "Let's just keep waiting". If nothing else, set a deadline for chip shipments, and outline potential next steps should that shipping window not be met. The group buy individual purchasers don't have a contract with Avalon. Steamboat does. It's time he actively advocate for our rights under that contract!
Some sort of action must be taken soon, or we may as well all just pack it up! Simply continuing to wait will have EVERY SINGLE PERSON in this group buy lose their ass. But hey, it's bitcoin mining - nothing new there, right?
I know I've said things in this post that will be unpopular. Flame away if you must. I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just stating things as I see them. Something must be done here guys!
PS: I'll try and respond kindly to the inevitable flames to my post. But please excuse me if my responses are delayed. As a customer in a later batch, my profits are gone at this point no matter what happens. I'll probably take a break from here and go lick my wounds. Someone wake me up if my miners ever ship...
I agree 100%, and was going to post something similar here, but you beat me to it, and probably said it better. |
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So YiFu is going to start us down the road of having to resort to government agencies to regulate bitcoin. Instead of being a man, honoring his promises and protecting his customers; he will hide behind the irreversibility and anonymity of bitcoin. Legal action will be required and bitcoin WILL BE regulated in some manner. Congrats YiFu!! You have forced those who use bitcoin legitimately to show the world that those entrusted with large amounts of bitcoin cannot be trusted to use it legitimately. Great job, this will endear everyone to use bitcoin.  I don't think Yifu is the one starting legal action or calling the WSJ. I do think he jumped to a conclusion (as the WSJ article didn't mention Avalon/Bitsyncom, but did mention others). However, it seems clear to me that bitocoiner49er meant that Yifu's misdeeds require outside (i.e. government) help to rectify the situation--not that he was pursuing these things. Did you pretended to misunderstand him? |
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What I intended to do with the chips is not the point. I'm saying that what everyone planned to do with the chips is very relevant, because it means 100% refund for the chips is insufficient compensation. The point is Avalon is breach of contract. Indeed. If others have invested more in production they have to do what is right for them. I suggest that asking for a Refund even if you have chips on order is a prudent ploy should you need to use legal means to get compensation later especially given there is no evidence the chips exist or are being shipped currently. Asking for a refund 4 weeks from now is not going to help anyone especially those who have already put money into production of units because they are going to be left holding that bag if they continue to wait.
I suggest group buys that have no such ties use all available pressure to force Avalon into the following situation: What do you mean by "no such ties"? 1. THEY IMMEDIATELY COMMUNICATE THE LOCATION OF THE CHIPS AND SET A HARD DATE FOR DELIVERY.
2. THEY IMMEDIATELY RESPOND TO REFUND REQUESTS.
3. THEY IMMEDIATELY OFFER COMPENSATION.
There is no benefits to wait for Avalon to deliver chips that are already 5+ weeks late. I suspect they want people to adopt the posture of hope and pray so that further delays and lack of communication can be milked out for weeks and possibly months. Sorry but the risk here is not that they won't deliver. The risk is they will fail to refund everyone or COMPENSATE them properly. Simply sitting back and waiting is the wrong response. Look at BFL customers for what happens to those who wait quietly and patiently for delivery? No we need to set a clear tone and that is we want refunds / compensation, we will boycott your company until we are all satisfied you have made good on a resolution and given everyone responsible for group buys a full briefing on where the chips are now and when they will ship. Good points here. |
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Refund and Boycott. Best option right now. Is "refund" really what you mean? IME, that implies that the chips will never be delivered, and you accept the same amount that you paid for them being returned to you. The chips are not standalone devices. What about the hardware (boards) needed to run them? What about the time and funds that went into developing and purchasing and building that hardware? A refund for the chips alone hardly seems satisfactory to me. Immediate delivery + compensation seems better, but I'd be surprised to see that. I think most buyers wouldn't be made whole without at least a ~2x refund--and that doesn't even account for missed opportunity, just cost of equipment. So...I'm not sure that even qualifies as being "made whole", after all. I have asked for a refund 7 days ago via Support Ticket as Avalon is in breach of contract. Others should do the same and until we are compensated properly our group buy members will not buy or support Avalon products. DIY effforts like BKKCoins etc we do support but once they are complete we intend to maintain our boycott and be very vocal about their lack of communication and failures to deliver both relevant information and the product to the customers on time. We are also working on legal actions with other group buys at this time. That's nice, but you seem to have ignored my point. What were you planning on doing with your chips? Did you spend some other money preparing to use them some way? Was that money also refundable to you? |
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Refund and Boycott. Best option right now. Is "refund" really what you mean? IME, that implies that the chips will never be delivered, and you accept the same amount that you paid for them being returned to you. The chips are not standalone devices. What about the hardware (boards) needed to run them? What about the time and funds that went into developing and purchasing and building that hardware? A refund for the chips alone hardly seems satisfactory to me. Immediate delivery + compensation seems better, but I'd be surprised to see that. I think most buyers wouldn't be made whole without at least a ~2x refund--and that doesn't even account for missed opportunity, just cost of equipment. So...I'm not sure that even qualifies as being "made whole", after all. |
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