Liquid Synergy Designs Inc. -ASIC mining hardware

[driksson]

And what happens to the people that bought parts already and are sitting on non refundable parts? Should they have their chips refunded (most of the people in the group buy) to satisfy  a few users in the group buy? Lets be realistic here.

If Avalon is right about gen2 coming out in october. Those past groupbuys should get priority (for example those with refund).
Old hardware designs shall support gen 2 chips.
Would that then not be best? get refund now, wait for gen 2 when you might actually get some of your investment back. And then they only offer gen 2 based on in stock ordering so we will know that the delivery time will be correct.

From what I read the gen2 will be the same size, but different pinout and I'm sure other small differences would need a complete redesign. You can't expect to just drop it in.

Ok, so an additional $20 per board to fix compatibility with gen2.
Still no intererest? And no interest of compensation from a company making millions?

[driksson]

And what happens to the people that bought parts already and are sitting on non refundable parts? Should they have their chips refunded (most of the people in the group buy) to satisfy  a few users in the group buy? Lets be realistic here.

If Avalon is right about gen2 coming out in october. Those past groupbuys should get priority (for example those with refund).
Old hardware designs shall support gen 2 chips.
Would that then not be best? get refund now, wait for gen 2 when you might actually get some of your investment back. And then they only offer gen 2 based on in stock ordering so we will know that the delivery time will be correct.

How do you know those chips would function on the old boards that were already bought and paid for by the group buy members? Do they have the same pin out? Voltage? Watts? Amps? Grounds? There are so many factors to consider that could make the entire investment a waste in your scenario that I would rather just wait.

They have said it themselves.. So, add a $20 per board to support it fully.
Waiting solves most problems! Good call.
I think thats how we should solve world peace also! LETS WAIT IT OUT!!!
Again, speechless.

[jasinlee]

20$ per board over thousands of boards....and this is not something you just fix, you redesign. How long would it take to change the board and then source new parts (potentially) since you do not know if the current ones will work. Would you need new regulators?

[driksson]

20$ per board over thousands of boards....and this is not something you just fix, you redesign. How long would it take to change the board and then source new parts (potentially) since you do not know if the current ones will work. Would you need new regulators?

What i've read, there's no new boards needed, pins are same, just some components replacements.
And if you have ordered thousands of boards, you need to look what pays you back the most, gen 1 coming in another month. or gen 2 coming in two months (avalon numbers)
If you would have the refund meanwhile, it would give you the option at least. With difficulty going up 40-50% ever 11 days..
I just do not want to see them deliver as nothing happened, without any compensation. A refund, could mean with an option to buy when in stock, at a later stage to show good faith.
But if you want to create problems, instead of suggesting solutions, be my guest. I'm sure its a lot of help to someone.

[jasinlee]

20$ per board over thousands of boards....and this is not something you just fix, you redesign. How long would it take to change the board and then source new parts (potentially) since you do not know if the current ones will work. Would you need new regulators?

What i've read, there's no new boards needed, pins are same, just some components replacements.
And if you have ordered thousands of boards, you need to look what pays you back the most, gen 1 coming in another month. or gen 2 coming in two months (avalon numbers)
If you would have the refund meanwhile, it would give you the option at least. With difficulty going up 40-50% ever 11 days..
I just do not want to see them deliver as nothing happened, without any compensation. A refund, could mean with an option to buy when in stock, at a later stage to show good faith.
But if you want to create problems, instead of suggesting solutions, be my guest. I'm sure its a lot of help to someone.

I am not creating problems, I am acknowledging them. Are you consulting an engineer for the items I listed? I am.

And the simplest solution at this point is to just wait on the chips we already ordered, it is more likely they will ship them than the likelihood of avalon producing in a timely fashion the Gen 2 chips. Not to mention their potential shipping times. You may have only paid for the chips and would get that money back, but other people would get gen 2 chips then have to purchase different parts and wait on a redesign.

Think this through and be realistic. You are asking everyone else to take a huge loss, and delay their boards much much further than they would at present.

[driksson]

Think this through and be realistic. You are asking everyone else to take a huge loss, and delay their boards much much further than they would at present.

So, since you seem to have a contact with Avalon that noone else has. What is the delivery time at present?
and where in your mind, did i say a refund means no ability at all to purchase chips?
a refund, would give the groupbuyers an option to purchase when there is stock..
I might even be fine with the refund ending up in steamboats hands, and he negotiates a new price for us..
But, lets stick to creating problems! thats more fun.

[jasinlee]

Think this through and be realistic. You are asking everyone else to take a huge loss, and delay their boards much much further than they would at present.

So, since you seem to have a contact with Avalon that noone else has. What is the delivery time at present?

I never said that I did, but neither do you so when would gen 2 chips arrive? You dont know, neither do I. But if you are just going to change the subject when I point out issues in the logic why are we continuing to discuss this?

[driksson]

Think this through and be realistic. You are asking everyone else to take a huge loss, and delay their boards much much further than they would at present.

So, since you seem to have a contact with Avalon that noone else has. What is the delivery time at present?

I never said that I did, but neither do you so when would gen 2 chips arrive? You dont know, neither do I. But if you are just going to change the subject when I point out issues in the logic why are we continuing to discuss this?

They say gen2 in october!
So since we are not asking for refund, nor for compensation.
LETS WAIT! thats the best idea.

[jasinlee]

I would not be against asking for compensation, that has not been discussed. But your implications that we are unaware of issues that we are discussing, and that the rest of the group buy is just sitting on our hands and accepting a good screwing is just fallacy. If you would like to start a new thread directed at Yifu compensating customers in some manner (like bfl chip credits or whatevere) I would sign your petition to Bitsyncom.

[cp1]

They say gen2 in october!
So since we are not asking for refund, nor for compensation.
LETS WAIT! thats the best idea.

They said 9-10 weeks for gen1.

[markm]

They said gen 1 in ten weeks too, so if gen 2 is coming in october obviously gen 1 already arrived in ten weeks and there is no problem, what are you posting about, you got your chips weeks ago...

-MarkM-

[cardcomm]

What's the point in getting chip refunds when we've already paid for assembly etc?  I'd rather have a miner with chips in it than a miner without chips sitting on my desk.

Yes, so would I - If I got them in a timely manner. But I DON'T want miners even WITH chips in them at a cost of $325+ US each if they are only earning pennies a day. If you're losing money on them, it makes no sense to have them.

One way to look at it is this: I get a refund on the chips, the assembler keeps the assembly costs that I've already paid, but refunds the overnight shipping (since he's not gonna ship me anything). I've lost the assembly costs, but I've regained the chip cost. Even that undesirable outcome would probably result in more actual cash back in my pocket than waiting for my batch 4 miners to arrive sometime in oh... let's just say October? Gee, I wonder what the difficulty will be at then...

(I realize this scenario would potentially present somewhat of a windfall for the assemblers - they would have to eat parts cost, but would be spared the cost of having boards manufactured. It'd sure be ironic if the only people to make money are the assemblers, for not assembling...)

[ionstorm]

I don't want a refund, if we get chips by the end of this month, but as for compensation it would be cool if yifu credited all chip buyers first batch gen2 chips including shipping.  Even if each customer who ordered 128 chips gets 16-32 gen 2 chips for free I'd be happy as hell.  I think we should push for my idea.  And it would be a good selling point for Avalon to sell more gen 2 chips.  We each get a free taste and naturally we will desire more if the performance is good.  This would help compensate us for time lost and help Avalon sell more chips.  They can afford to so this now since there will be chips available rather than pre-orders so there is not much excuse for them not to do this.  Our group buys helped fund gen 2, let's ask him to return the favor even minimally.

[rocks]

What's the point in getting chip refunds when we've already paid for assembly etc?  I'd rather have a miner with chips in it than a miner without chips sitting on my desk.

Yes, so would I - If I got them in a timely manner. But I DON'T want miners even WITH chips in them at a cost of $325+ US each if they are only earning pennies a day. If you're losing money on them, it makes no sense to have them.

One way to look at it is this: I get a refund on the chips, the assembler keeps the assembly costs that I've already paid, but refunds the overnight shipping (since he's not gonna ship me anything). I've lost the assembly costs, but I've regained the chip cost. Even that undesirable outcome would probably result in more actual cash back in my pocket than waiting for my batch 4 miners to arrive sometime in oh... let's just say October? Gee, I wonder what the difficulty will be at then...

(I realize this scenario would potentially present somewhat of a windfall for the assemblers - they would have to eat parts cost, but would be spared the cost of having boards manufactured. It'd sure be ironic if the only people to make money are the assemblers, for not assembling...)

I agree with a lot of what you said, if we could recover the chip cost plus I think at least 1/2 of the assembly costs (which is more than reasonable) then walking away with ~75% of your initial investment (a ~25% loss) is better than having H/W that does not return as much.

But at this point I don't think a chip refund is possible, does anyone seriously think Yifu will send tens of thousands of BTC back, not happening. Only thing to do is wait for steamboat to receive the chips and support him in getting the H/W out as fast as possible.

[ik2013]

I have one last foolish thread of hope that we will see chip deliveries this month. Really disappointed things turned out like this, let's hope we can salvage something...

I am interested in buying complete K16s from anyone that had them assembled with Steamboat and wants to cut their losses...please PM me if you are interested. Price is negotiable, escrow preferred. Thanks.

EDIT: Not interested in bothering Steamboat with address changes (think he already said he wouldn't do it anyways...), looking to buy miners that are being shipped to your door. I will cover the cost of USPS postage from you to me once I have seen evidence you have it in hand. I am NOT looking to buy your spot in any queue.

[cpengr]

Has anyone seen the latest project next difficulty level? The situation is looking quite bleak. This delay has already killed our ROI.

The only profits left at this point are for the assemblers / group buy leaders. The chips will probably ship eventually, the assemblers will build and ship out then worthless products. Everyone will have "fulfilled their obligations". The assemblers and group buy leaders will have their profits, and the end users will be the proud new owners of equipment worth far less than they paid for it.

Rinse and repeat, and that's the Bitcoin mining hardware business in a nutshell.

I'm a small buyer in one of the later batches. I know my opinion counts for zip in this matter. Yet I'd like to go on record and state that I strongly disagree with Steamboat's "wait and see attitude". Yes, if we wait long enough, we'll probably get the chips. But what's the point by then?

Steamboat has stated he will continue to monitor the situation. I'm not even sure what that means. If that means he's exploring civil and law enforcement intervention, then fine. If it means he's monitoring his email for news on when Avalon may decide to ship, that's not good enough!

The excuses in Avalon's latest statement are hard to believe at best. Frankly, IMO It's one of the most absurd official company lies I've ever seen. It's clearly a ploy to get us off his back for a couple more weeks. AND WE ARE DOING JUST WHAT HE WANTS! Yifu is acting like a spoiled child trying to get his way, and we are letting him get away with it.

Ideally, I'd like to see all the group buy leaders get together and take a united stance. I feel that is our best chance at a timely resolution. Combined, they should have enough leverage to get things moving.

Barring that happening, I'd like to see Steamboat step up and say just a little bit more than "Let's just keep waiting". If nothing else, set a deadline for chip shipments, and outline potential next steps should that shipping window not be met. The group buy individual purchasers don't have a contract with Avalon. Steamboat does. It's time he actively advocate for our rights under that contract!

Some sort of action must be taken soon, or we may as well all just pack it up! Simply continuing to wait will have EVERY SINGLE PERSON in this group buy lose their ass. But hey, it's bitcoin mining - nothing new there, right?

I know I've said things in this post that will be unpopular. Flame away if you must. I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just stating things as I see them. Something must be done here guys!

PS: I'll try and respond kindly to the inevitable flames to my post. But please excuse me if my responses are delayed. As a customer in a later batch, my profits are gone at this point no matter what happens. I'll probably take a break from here and go lick my wounds. Someone wake me up if my miners ever ship...

I agree 100%, and was going to post something similar here, but you beat me to it, and probably said it better.

[cpengr]

Here is a screenshot of the contract that Avalon/Bitsyncom/Yifu breached: their "no bullshit, no fine print terms of sale". They are far beyond the stated lead time.

What's the point in getting chip refunds when we've already paid for assembly etc?  I'd rather have a miner with chips in it than a miner without chips sitting on my desk.

Yes, so would I - If I got them in a timely manner. But I DON'T want miners even WITH chips in them at a cost of $325+ US each if they are only earning pennies a day. If you're losing money on them, it makes no sense to have them.

One way to look at it is this: I get a refund on the chips, the assembler keeps the assembly costs that I've already paid, but refunds the overnight shipping (since he's not gonna ship me anything). I've lost the assembly costs, but I've regained the chip cost. Even that undesirable outcome would probably result in more actual cash back in my pocket than waiting for my batch 4 miners to arrive sometime in oh... let's just say October? Gee, I wonder what the difficulty will be at then...

(I realize this scenario would potentially present somewhat of a windfall for the assemblers - they would have to eat parts cost, but would be spared the cost of having boards manufactured. It'd sure be ironic if the only people to make money are the assemblers, for not assembling...)

I agree with a lot of what you said, if we could recover the chip cost plus I think at least 1/2 of the assembly costs (which is more than reasonable) then walking away with ~75% of your initial investment (a ~25% loss) is better than having H/W that does not return as much.

I could go for this.

But at this point I don't think a chip refund is possible, does anyone seriously think Yifu will send tens of thousands of BTC back, not happening. Only thing to do is wait for steamboat to receive the chips and support him in getting the H/W out as fast as possible.

Don't give up so easily! If we roll over and admit defeat, then it's sure to happen. The community needs to ban together, stand up, and HOLD YIFU's FEET TO THE FIRE.

See this thread: Get a REFUND from Yifu for Avalon chips, especially posts 21, 69 through 73, 75, 77-78, 80.


steamboat, it seems you've done a real stand-up job in getting things together, but none of us accounted for Yifu's breach of contract. I agree with cardcomm, and others here saying that "wait patiently" is not going to cut it anymore.

What have you done, what are you doing, and what will you do to help us minimize our losses?

[jasinlee]

I would like to see a response from Yifu to anyone already requesting refunds. I do not even need to go looking at posts in the thread he started the other day to know that everyone is simply defecating on him and his face will continue to grin. This is what I was explaining before, you are wasting your time. Even if everyone demanded refunds you would likely have to wait for the refund, if he ever gave it. And if he ever gave it, a bank run would likely ensue and then most likely everyone would be SOL. I agree a refund would be preferable, but the likelihood of that ever happening are slim.

[cpengr]

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing."
(source unknown)

I would like to see a response from Yifu to anyone already requesting refunds. I do not even need to go looking at posts in the thread he started the other day to know that everyone is simply defecating on him and his face will continue to grin. This is what I was explaining before, you are wasting your time. Even if everyone demanded refunds you would likely have to wait for the refund, if he ever gave it. And if he ever gave it, a bank run would likely ensue and then most likely everyone would be SOL. I agree a refund would be preferable, but the likelihood of that ever happening are slim.

Is this how you live your life? Get shit on, and roll over and take it, because it's hopeless?

It's been suggested in one of the posts I mentioned above that a prerequisite to obtaining any legal relief would be a good faith effort to obtain a refund.

Are you not even willing to let other people try on your behalf? Do you not care about justice being done? If Yifu is really lying and essentially stealing from us--as it seems he is--are you really satisfied to let him get away with it, and continue to carry on his business? ETA: And to let others see that they can get away with it too?

ETA2: "I would like to see a response from Yifu to anyone already requesting refunds." I would like to see it too, but I don't think it's going to happen without forcing his hand, which is why I'm advocating for that. Also, even if he does, I'd be surprised if it's anywhere near satisfactory in light of the damage already done.

[Boxman90]

Batch #4 chip owners, ATTENTION

As an owner of 219 chips in Batch #4, I'd like to opt for a refund, demanded from Avalon by steamboat.

Anybody else in Batch #4 who wants to join me in this statement and demand full refund for their order?