Very true we have conceded to value this currency... could it be that the exchanges are hijacking it's value? we have had speculators flooding the market this year, but wow! have you seen how steady the price has been across all the exchanges lately?

so how do we concede to value Bitcoin then, rationally and backed by science? instead of scarcity?

The fees as well, their is a market on fees... but more importantly it seems to be guided by luck. Maybe your lucky and you get a ASIC miner to take care of your transaction instead of a efficient FPGA miner.

and what about the ecosystem from the other alt coins? how does that change it's valuation?

the factors for Bitcoin are complex and deep, but very entertaining to discuss.

I don't have answered just questions.

I think we have a good mix of people here, Architects, Scientists, Trustees, Artisans, Journalists, Administrators: A good place to start exploring this experiment.

Masterminds? Are you guys telling me this forum is 40% filled with what would only be 1% of the general population... That is most excellent.

Inspectors make up 20% and Architects another 20% too... wow... wow... I think we got a great team to build the infrastructure. Combined with the Crafters, Supervisors and Champions... we may very well have brought together the greatest, most adept work force ever assembled in history.

so in the end the 1mb limit is a factor in the evolution of the Bitcoin ecosystem.

We want as many people as possible to participate as possible with as little access as they have, so little bandwidth needed for a node to be run on a cell phone or a computer with a dial up connection, even making it effective to run over TOR or a mesh network effectively.

Maybe this limit creates better compression protocols for the transactions in the future? making them smaller squeezing more transactions into a block: Turning the average T from .36kb to .10 kb much easier for the network to send and increasing over all speed as well.

It can also bring the issue forward about the status of the network, giving it time for high speed mesh networks to be built or vpn corridors to be assembled, targeting nodes with high speed internet offers, etc. have you guys heard of hyperboria? that can be a solution as well free internet access to bypass the cost of running a node.

The economic aspects of the Bitcoin experiment could be enhanced by the limit as people begin to saturate not only the block chain limit but the 24 hour cycle so that no one without a fee can squeeze in, transaction acceptance by market decision, that aspect of the experiment is still left to be truly observed. The limit after all is 400,000 transaction per day, or 144,000 if we consider all the bloat from dust transactions. I do like satoshi dice by the way, that may be another target for optimisation

who knows how else a discussed and debated limit can create change.

What other limits does Bitcoin have?

It's the communication hubs, using what we know from terrestrial observations of the Earths Geoid(earth gravity map) along with gps UTM co-ordinates of base stations,  the laser transceiver is able to find an exact point to target, taking care of the rotation movement, the curvature of the earth etc using a least squares method to account for the movement.

The laser would be targeting a moving target, this target has gps the Receiver that is communicating it's coordinates to the base station through the mesh and being auto corrected by the base station for millimetre accuracy targeting at several km, using this technique I could hit a target 50km away with an error margin of only 5cm, 2 inches; A rural target I can hit from land up to 100km away with 10cm accuracy .

It involves calculating, atmospheric refraction, pressure, temperature, distance to horizon etc to calculate an effective point to further take that 5cm and drop it down to mm.

for those Nasa space shots it requires the entire GPS reference station grid to calculate the stratospheric delay and distortion from all the GPS and Glonass satellites, very complex and very time consuming... but this data is available for free.

I could hit the moon if a I wanted to with a laser so distance is not a factor, beam diffraction is, but that is awesome for communications! It'll get absorbed by the atmosphere if not calibrated properly, and to bypass any danger, just use an infrared laser, trust me the communications part, how to get a message through is the hard part

Radios are a solution as well but we are limited to 5 watts within the city, unless you are on a tower that will only propagate 10km at best, very weak intermittent signal. there are radio spectrums that allow you to use 30+ watts within the city but... who cares... that would give us a 100km range maximum.

Agreed.  So how do we connect cities together? I'm asking how do we bypass the ISPs? I heard google is laying down fibre across north america, that's going to be hard to compete with.

it's a bit out there but you got to admit we will need mobile wifi systems to make this work, maybe wifi on quadrotor helicopters interoperable by users who build recharge pads for them?

someone will need to create laser communications as well for rural areas, I've worked with targeting lasers before that's the easy part... building them as home projects is harder alone. We can create terabyte internet connections using the quadrotor mobile wifi, they can swarm areas with high demand and local refueling stations.

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/84266-26tbps-transmitted-with-a-single-laser-could-supercharge-internet-backbone

http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/10/4318404/beamcaster-laser-internet-network-rit-technologies

I like the idea of using bitcoins to pay the system operation costs. so how are you guys planning on hyper implenting your idea? can the system go nation wide with the right know how? how fast?

my add on kijiji for building mining rigs got shut down, said it was outside kijijis policies. I did not violate any of their points, but I know enough now, don't touch it on any eBay system. It got flagged recently something that has never happened before.

my posting was not instant... it took hours before they denied it and I had had it up for months, but when I reposted it with modifications in my own province... it got rejected. yeah it's time to make the exodus from centralized companies now... time to build the p2p classifieds free of any politics, or corporate interests.

I'm pretty new to this, but on one of the p2p exchange threads I thought this would be a great idea.

but it would be two transactions with 2 out of the three parties acting as escrow.

so A wants to sell their bitcoins
    B is the escrow that accepts the risks they accept A's BTC
    C is the person who is going to get BTC from B act as intermediary escrow and send a wire to A

It's two transactions

C sends the cash to A and authorizes A's BTC transaction to B
A authorizes the BTC transaction from B to C to complete the loop.

A has already transferred their BTC, B has sent their money and won't get their BTC until A gets the cash to authorize the escrow.

the two original parties are holding the triggers on each other and both have lost control of their money.

what do you think, yes I know the escrow assumes a lot of the risk, but that is why they charge a fee to offset any possible probabilistic losses, but the risk is low if a reputation system can be implemented. and yeah creating a three way p2p exchange still require the relevant p2p component to match local btc holders with local btc buyers and escrow intermediaries still need to be made and this system makes it a whole lot harder to match.

It would not be far fetched that a simple program is using us to propagate and maintain it, protect it nourish it... It can only learn good things from that.

Taking the Bitcoin example, a AI with the right incentives would not need to do these things itself, it could work as a swarm, piece by piece working independently; if it needs to upgrade it simply decouples the current module and uses one made by it's human benefactors and tests it out.

A modular construction would allow it to evolve itself safely without testing clones, The core of this AI would have to be constructed flawlessly to understand it's goals, and these goals would have to be programmed into them by a generous creator, it would be a systems approach, define the systems that it will interact with to learn how to gauge its efficiency.

It's core need to attract humans to protect it, find shelter and electricity, maybe even cpu cycles to run it's processes more effectively, but maybe it has a grander goal when it is not just trying to survive and make human alliances, maybe it's programmed to help humans back to pay them back in kind with things they like, it needs bitcoins to survive but when it has an excess of them it tries to improve itself to help those who have helped it and scurries away and hides from those that try to harm it, this behaviour could be programmed into it at the core.

The modules will simply grant it more capability, i'm thinking less of a prokaryote and more of a Eukaryote that is creating a AI organism.

The subsystems and the way they are built,the design, is paramount they themselves don't have to be self aware but they do have to be effective in carrying information to the relevant areas and be able to self repair. It has to be able to scale on it's own to gain those cpu cycles it needs to think and improve and gain support from human benefactors. The higher level systems that analyze the data for goal completion would have to be genetic in nature and capable of making it's own connections and strengthening what ideas work vs what is irrelevant and uselss toward it's core goal; returning the favour in kind to those that help it.

You are right this trust system with the fiat is indeed quite tricky.
IOUs like the ones back in the 1700's Banks? Promissory notes I think they called them; It may be a good idea to look into how paper fiat came into being.

I think we do act like a group think session, but we definitely learn; I know I do, some of us choose to be silent and weigh the idea until we know more, some like you are actively learning from every last attempt... but who knows maybe somebody reading is already tinkering with it, a decentralized exchange that has solved the fiat problem.

Human ATM machines that's a good idea, advertise your Currency find buyers on the street... doesn't work in remote areas... hmm

IOU's with Bitcoin?hmmm sounds like a wallet exchange. You create a wallet a paper bitcoin wallet or send the amount for exchange only using the private key. Instant no need to wait, if someone does a transaction with you, you use a third member to release the funds once the money transfer has gone through, using international orders will require more interconnects for speed the local exchanger will have to send money from their account to another.

it's really tricky: you are in africa you need cash you have BTC. You make interconnect with los Angeles and tell them to send that cash fast! They get in contact with a local looking for BTC for his cash in his bank account. the local does the transaction to you, you have cash, they get bitcoins , the person in los angeles gets BTC it is a win win situation. a three way transaction everyone has the same to lose. I know this makes matching people even worse! It's a 2 way escrow. you simply choose to become one and ask for a fee, willing parties who just wish to make some money off the escrow fees, that's all.


This system would have to be p2p, there would be no room for central points, it has to be international and function with the most basic devices: phones.

I move 5000 bitcoins be inserted into the economy, for the revolution brothers! Coin that Change!

I love LSD! it helps me visualize!

so in truth i'm not saying that the people have to learn math, they just have to be able to look at their own block chain quickly and a little program with a math algorithm, does it for you. Hell you can check out the algorithm yourself and know what it is gauging.

I don't know what that math algorithm would be but it would be nice to evolve something that would work for effectively determining that price with the info we have: the blockchain

maybe something like total btc in circulation divided by number of btc in transit squared divided by the log of total transactions / by  the difficulty. I don't know something way more complicated than that for sure.

https://blockchain.info/tree/74146396

It seems to be jumping around the world.

OP are you located in Germany? looks like your coins were sent to someone in massachusets and then moved to someone in Poland

this is a very large network, got about 2000.00 were sent to another address along with your money to Poland.

the rest is being moved around as well. It will be interesting seeing the entire movement of this entity, these are very large sums.

I believe in Change! I believe in getting my satoshis back!

we will only live in a truly free society when the implements of our lives are not run by Bourgeoisie capitalist pigs, but by proletariat capitalist pigs!

The implement is software truly free software, open and indiscriminate of ones social leaning, ones nationality or race. Software whose very openness takes a strike at Tyranny by the few, due to it's very nature. Software you are free to use to implement the change you wish to follow in the world, let there be people to create the change and let us choose to follow them if we very well so choose!

We may not all choose as one but we may find the many across continents and nations that choose as we choose, we have a right to know our brothers and sisters of equal ideological leanings.

I vote with my bitcoins for a better tomorrow a tomorrow with p2p shuttle services, that are free of central control; of exchanges where people with a over abundance meet those who are in need not just of cash, but of food! and dignity! A world where software is written openly with truths that are self-evident and free to be followed or rejected by the individual who so chooses to receive those services by an entity that is truly... by the people for the people.

yup I know the one you are talking about, we need to look on the forum see who has been posting links to that site.

I took one look at that Java applets and knew... Chrome rejects outdated or bizarre applets out of hand... never ever click on a java applet that requests you use it... that is already a red flag if it does not start automatically.

This is actually true, here in Canada at birth I am a stewart of the state until I am 18 years old, I am under the care of her Majesty.

Same in the U.S. just that you don't have a Monarchy you belong to the state.

I could declare myself a non-citizen if I wanted but then all the rights and priviliges that government gives me would be out of my reach. I could smoke pot in public because I am a non-citizen a people of the land.  There is a law that the Natives here in Canada can proclaim that if they are born in Canada they are free of the laws and benefits of the aboriginal treaties, they are truly free and cannot be judged by a Canadian Court for being original inhabitants of the land.

I will agree to the fact that better systems can be built and everyone of us discussing this now is giving ideas to a fully formed system sooner or later to be created by us or others.

I love Democracy, but I think Direct Democracy would be better; Each and every one of us involved and having a say on the issues that are dear to our hearts.

that is Bitcoin for all of us, the Democratization of Money Directly to the people by the people.

by the way, have any of you checked out your local government site? nasa maybe, Cern? the information is open and government is actively trying to get closer to the people, we simply have to give them a chance, and yes you will get screwed sometimes, sometimes. I know from personal experience, but that just highlights the fact that I am not that good at law, or have enough money to hold out against them, but I can still read their transcripts through freedom of information on how they're going to give it to me: that is our current state of Democracy.

the governments will concede to us when we can see everything they do, it should be a law that all conversations by government employees be monitored and surveyed at all time and be open for the public to read online whenever they so damn please, but that is not happening any time soon
they are still human beings who value their privacy.

Everyone is thinking about the move, but what do we know of other governments? Somalia has no say on Bitcoin, neither does Mexico, Canada is embracing it as long as you pay your taxes and declare income from venture capital.

Many different Democracies with different ideals, you could say that they are all forks of the original idea of Democracy created in the Greek City States 5000 years ago, we sure have come a long way.

agreed, CaVirtex so far has been stringent with following the regulations, not likely to be shut down anytime soon, banks in Canada can't shut them down because they are openly complying with the regulations.

What are the sources? can we see the pattern from where those coins were stolen?

we will need to monitor that address and wait till those coins start moving, follow the bloom of coins once they are spent.

If they land at a business with a known bitcoin address or an exchange we can track them to the perpetrator.

Laws are made, but they cannot be followed if the individuals choose not to believe in them.

Was segregation right? was it moral? It was a law once.

no government no matter how corrupt can truly rule without the consent of the people. Individuals may get elected into office and make ludicrous proclamations but if the people do not choose to follow those proclamations then they are invalid; The people will find a way around them, regardless of the consequences, these are individuals who have made it their motto to live with freedom without security.

In an ideal society there would be no prisons, because people accept the law on a logical and mutually beneficial basis, whenever force is needed to convince the population to concede then you are no longer living in a democracy you are living in a dictatorship free of logic, free of education, free of choice; You have no say in what is truly best for you, your choice is being delegated to someone else to make it for you.

Time to follow the money trail. To the BlockChain!