An extreme example of no minimum wage laws was the cotton farming industry in the Southern US states before the Civil War.
A minimum wage law prevents people from reaching a mutual, voluntary agreement on the price of labor, if that agreement would fall below a certain price. Thus, it is a price floor. Your example is more akin to an extreme example of taxation (taxing the laborer 100% of their wages).. No. You are wrong. There was a mutual voluntary agreement on the price of labor to be zero by the employers. But not the "employees," so it was neither mutual, nor voluntary. Sure, they had a choice to work or die. Many volunteered to choose life and some chose death. Just like minimum wage folks do now, though actuarial statistics show that their lifespan is lessened. I don't think you understand "volunteer." "Work for me or die" is not a voluntary choice. It is coercion. It is also, I might add, the choice presented by the tax man. You are splitting hairs. We are talking about sets of populations, not individual cases. The population of today's minimum wage workers suffers much the same choices as enslaved peoples. It's funny that most (if not all) civilized people get this and you don't. I hate pull the ad populum card, but this is a moral issue. [edit] when you pulled the tax man argument it brings up red flags that you may be a libertarian with an overactive hypothalamus. |
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An extreme example of no minimum wage laws was the cotton farming industry in the Southern US states before the Civil War.
A minimum wage law prevents people from reaching a mutual, voluntary agreement on the price of labor, if that agreement would fall below a certain price. Thus, it is a price floor. Your example is more akin to an extreme example of taxation (taxing the laborer 100% of their wages).. No. You are wrong. There was a mutual voluntary agreement on the price of labor to be zero by the employers. But not the "employees," so it was neither mutual, nor voluntary. Sure, they had a choice to work or die. Many volunteered to choose life and some chose death. Just like minimum wage folks do now, though actuarial statistics show that their lifespan is lessened. |
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If you're running on the delusion that any relevant percentage of employment agreements in modern times can be considered to be an agreement between equals, sure.
But given that many employers tend to have hundreds/thousands/millions of times greater financial power than any given employee, I fail to see how any sane person can consider that an agreement between equals for the purpose of law.
We do actually have a perfect example of this playing out in modern times, in China (and to a lesser extent India), which gives us a perfect example of what happens in a modern globalized country without minimum wage laws: China has no minimum wage laws, labor is cheap > Lots of companies move in to take advantage. Unemployed people are still desperate, so take any job > As more companies moved in to try to compete against other companies, unemployment dropped to near zero > What used to be long lines of prospective employees at the company gates, has turned into empty parking ports, with not enough employees > Companies in China started struggling to find workers, and have started to compete for labor > High demand for employees + low supply of labor = higher wages and better benefits End result is, despite the media sensationalizing the destitute working conditions in China because drama sells in TV, the quality of jobs and the average wage in China have shot up dramatically over the last decade. So much so that for many companies it no longer makes sense to outsource to China or India, as they'll just break even on shipping charges. The same thing happened in India, but on a much more dramatic, and possibly unsustainable level. So, here's your example of the "tragedy" of the lack of minimum wage laws in modern times. The market works, and it's not as bad as you think. (Source: series of case papers from my Global Economic Environment graduate class) Japan and Korea were once like China. It didn't work for them. What makes you think China will not go the same route? |
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I am not saying that programmers cannot be dreamers, but they are rare. I associate with several programmers. They have no interest or understanding in Bitcoin.
Cause several represents everyone. Don't generalize this just bad. Also you talk about dreamers and how they go against the "status quo" and stuff like that. First off stop watching Apple's ad it like in your mind. Second dreamers are people with ideas, they follow thru, they don't let one road block stop them. Dreamers are people just like you and me that want society to be what they envision. Meh. That's a weak definition of a dreamer. People like Tolkein, Disney, many Hollywood production staff, Tesla, Hemmingway, Frost, etc. Satoshi and some of his followers qualify. I am not a dreamer anymore, because sometimes it takes too big a toll to survive. It's not the roadblocks. They tend to have a high mortality rate. I support the dreamers. I do not and never have owned or supported Apple. |
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Maybe you won't. Laws will correct the situation to force a minimum wage whether you like it or not.
They will? When?  If you are in New Zealand, then it happened in 1894. These laws are spreading globally and exist in all developed nations. If you are in a country that has not adapted them yet, then you do not have adequate security to provide for your own development and don't even have the resources to develop the infrastructure that will attract qualified workers. |
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I never did complain. I'm sure there may be quants willing to work for such a low wage, but don't bitch about grocery stockers wanting more than 8 bucks an hour either. Not everyone is capable of doing the same jobs, but that doesn't mean they are not all valuable to society.
I don't bitch, I simply won't pay. I could care less what he wants, he may want $1000 / hour too. Maybe you won't. Laws will correct the situation to force a minimum wage whether you like it or not. |
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The Internet was invented precisely because it can not be blacked out. Though if you are talking about blacking out access to the Internet, then I guess that's a possibility. In that case, electronic bitcoin transaction will be impossible, though physical bitcoins can still be used as cash.
Nonsense!!!!! War, is one example. An example of what? "The Internet was invented precisely because it can not be blacked out." 1. The internet was not invented for that reason. 2. "it can not be blacked out", war is an example of it being blacked out, either in part of in full. Correct. The "Internet" was not created to avoid being blacked out. ArpaNet was invented to avoid being blacked out. The Internet was built upon ArpaNet though and serves the same function. |
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That's your problem. I'm sure your competition will find a better solution.
We will deal with our problem. But don't bitch that there are no jobs. Jobs are there. I never did complain. I'm sure there may be quants willing to work for such a low wage, but don't bitch about grocery stockers wanting more than 8 bucks an hour either. Not everyone is capable of doing the same jobs, but that doesn't mean they are not all valuable to society. |
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News flash. The entry level and short college program IT and Healthcare occupation markets are flooded.
There is no easy market. Consolidation and efficiency are prominent.
Agreed on ppl taking unmarketable degrees.
News flash: we can't hire enough people for an entry level jobs. We have 10 positions and can't fill them. Entry level programmer (C# and html): 80K Plenty of positions for seasoned people: senior developers, project managers. If you know mathematics, we need quants to develop models. We need mobile developers, we need html5/websockets guys, we need sysadmins that know how to set up clouds and real time systems. Of course you need to know stuff, brain dead don't need to apply. Jobs are there. You probably live in the wrong place then. Jobs won't come to you, you need to get them. That's your problem. I'm sure your competition will find a better solution. |
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An extreme example of no minimum wage laws was the cotton farming industry in the Southern US states before the Civil War.
A minimum wage law prevents people from reaching a mutual, voluntary agreement on the price of labor, if that agreement would fall below a certain price. Thus, it is a price floor. Your example is more akin to an extreme example of taxation (taxing the laborer 100% of their wages).. No. You are wrong. There was a mutual voluntary agreement on the price of labor to be zero by the employers. They were shown the error of their ways. The government only enforced the business practice but did not force every business owner to follow it. Some employers chose to not follow that practice. They were not taxed or penalized for this. |
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I am a programmer and I am a "dreamer". So that is a very false statement and kinda insulting.
+1  A tissue for both of you for hurting your feelings. I guess you agree about not being able to tie your own shoelaces.  No feeling hurts here, just that it sounds like we are working monkeys, with no ideas. If programmers were all uncreative then how did Notch come up with Minecraft? If programmers were dumbs without a life, you wouldn't post this. There are more loc(lines of code) than you think to make this whole WWW to work. There are a lot of dreamers programmers, those are the indie developers. I am not saying that programmers cannot be dreamers, but they are rare. I associate with several programmers. They have no interest or understanding in Bitcoin. I know even more electrical engineers whom have even less interest in Bitcoin, though that's another discussion. As far as Dreamers go, they are not driven by the profitability of creating a new videogame. That is the opposite of a Dreamer. Most cypherpunks are probably dreamers. Dreamers are people that express themselves fearlessly against the status quo when things go astray. I think this is why some Hollywood dreamers are attracted to Bitcoin. Some programmers are driven to create open source projects to fulfill great needs. They are Dreamers. I have personally met only a few open source programmers. Poets are mostly dreamers. Some fiction writers are too. In the credits to a book I wrote "Thanks to the philosophers, artists, scientists, friends and lovers that took the time to make life better and special thanks to the dreamers that gave up everything to show them how." Dreamers are much more than people with good ideas. They are willing to stick their neck out when they have something to lose. |
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An extreme example of no minimum wage laws was the cotton farming industry in the Southern US states before the Civil War. Some people called it good business, but most countries in the world called it immoral. Tens of thousands died over that argument. Before that in France, the aristocracy felt that poor people should eat cake. A new hat removing device was invented to solve that issue.
Maximum wage laws are much better at protecting economic health. Tax incentives to keep business owners from making too much money will incentivize them to reinvest in their business and allow it to grow. Paying workers higher wages spurs competition for better qualified employees. Unrestricted earnings only incentivizes business owners to hoard wealth and cause government to print money in order to drive the economy, causing inflation.
All I can say is this is a troll thread. People that support the argument in favor of an unregulated economy have no historical evidence to support their position. It's pseudoscience.
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Most programmers I know can't tie their own shoelaces. They think linearly. Don't expect them to see a hypertoroid.
Could not this be applied to most people ? Exactly. Programmers are just technicians. They are not dreamers. Dreamers are the people that shed their blood for the betterment of humanity. I think Satoshi would disagree with you. Satoshi is/was a cypherpunk. One does not simply call cypherpunks programmers. |
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All the previous advice is great. An old home remedy is a small sugar treat at bedtime. We called it sugar coma.
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We don't even have Bitcoin 1.0 yet. The death of Bitcoin 1.0 before the birth of Bitcoin 1.0 seems kinda premature.
I forget sometimes that Bitcoin is still Beta. Thanks. I'll close this thread. |
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Let me answer with a rhetorical question: would you call writing a check to two parties, or one with two signature lines, "checking 2.0"?
I would find this more confusing than anything. I would expect it to mean a new kind of non-interchangeable coin that works like bitcoin, and is being held out as better in some way, but isn't spendable where only a bitcoin is accepted. Basically an altcoin.
Most people don't even know what two-party checks are. Most people don't even use checks anymore. I think of them as business checks. I see where you are coming from, but I think most people would interpret it as "Bitcoin 1 compatible" instead of an alt coin. More importantly, it conveys the evolution of Bitcoin itself. Perhaps I am over-analyzing this. Really, very few people have even heard of Bitcoin yet to worry about their misgivings. I can see how from a marketing standpoint bitcoin 2.0 is like web 2.0
Its an upgrade from the original.
That was my thinking. |
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Yeah I guess I'm getting a bit ahead of myself here At least its open hardware so we can make all kinds of insane things with it. maybe on the Hardware wallet 2.0 interesting video have look time 16:30 Digital Money - Panel DiscussionI like that "innovation adds value." This isn't just some gimmick. Bitcoin provides safety and security to carry your money anywhere without threat of theft. Personally, I would like to see some device like this for children to safely carry money they need. |
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Now that we are starting to see escrows being created and the protocol supporting message signing, invoice creation, and more; Bitcoin is no longer a simply one way transaction network. Bitcoin 2 would convey the evolution of the protocol while keeping compatability with original bitcoins.
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As usual, the naysayers don't respond to the OP. Their tired old arguments don't stand up to 4 years of practice. Their fear is based upon imagined threats that have not come to pass.
Ill respond in 4-6 weeks. Maybe by then there will be a time-locked escrow tool with which to make a 2-party wager. |
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