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5861  Economy / Speculation / Re: What would happen to the price of bitcoin if it was declared illegal in the USA? on: August 10, 2012, 05:52:53 AM
Without a clear definition of what Bitcoin is, it would be hard to make it illegal. But if it was, it could morph into so many forms it would take a full time Federal Department of Whack-a-Mole to chase down every new form that Bitcoin manifests.
5862  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Max Keiser - "Libertarians are Intellectually Lazy & Idiots" on: August 09, 2012, 03:17:47 PM
Quote
To answer your scholastic question about the needs of human nature I'll refer to Maslow since he is the simplest to argue. As long as physiological, safety, interpersonal, and esteem needs are met, people will thrive. It should be our goal to create a community that fosters these to the best of our ability. The rewards for doing so will be ever improving technology.

It takes more than this. Without the right attitude most people will just party or do what everyone else does to get by rather than work towards improving themselves and their environment . Do the methods used to provide for peoples basic needs encourage them to be curious and productive? If not, then it may not be worth it.
Scientifically disproven argument. Besides, I didn't posit a method. Read a few books about experimental psychology.

Well then the science disagrees with what I observe in my every day life. Also, I didn't say you did posit a method, I was just putting the issue forth as something to be considered. Dismissing what I said because it has been "scientifically disproven" would be unwise.

"Science" is wrong more than right. I have a degree in psych, I think it is mostly people arguing about various opinions (slightly better than "philosophy"). The field is valuable in that it provides phenomena to be explained by the more "bottom-up" approaches, but I wouldn't take the aspects of it that make it into pop culture that seriously. Using the psych literature as the basis for public policy is foolish. Sure, use the information, but don't treat it as some kind of infallible truth.
OK then real life examples. Most great inventors, artists, authors, etc. in history lived on a pension of some sort. They were supported by family wealth or at the amusement of an aristocrat. People struggling to survive don't think grand thoughts. Speaking of which, I must now bow to my master for a few hours.
5863  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Max Keiser - "Libertarians are Intellectually Lazy & Idiots" on: August 09, 2012, 03:03:54 PM
Quote
To answer your scholastic question about the needs of human nature I'll refer to Maslow since he is the simplest to argue. As long as physiological, safety, interpersonal, and esteem needs are met, people will thrive. It should be our goal to create a community that fosters these to the best of our ability. The rewards for doing so will be ever improving technology.

It takes more than this. Without the right attitude most people will just party or do what everyone else does to get by rather than work towards improving themselves and their environment . Do the methods used to provide for peoples basic needs encourage them to be curious and productive? If not, then it may not be worth it.
Scientifically disproven argument. Besides, I didn't posit a method. Read a few books about experimental psychology.
5864  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Max Keiser - "Libertarians are Intellectually Lazy & Idiots" on: August 09, 2012, 03:01:03 PM
Switzerland was in no position to take sides even if they wanted to. Bad example. What if England chose to remain neutral in WWII?

To answer your scholastic question about the needs of human nature I'll refer to Maslow since he is the simplest to argue. As long as physiological, safety, interpersonal, and esteem needs are met, people will thrive. It should be our goal to create a community that fosters these to the best of our ability. The rewards for doing so will be ever improving technology.

Switzerland's a perfect example of exactly how a libertarian nation or AnCap region would handle being surrounded by warring nations. "Well, I suppose my people would have to shoot twice."

OK, now, how does libertarianism fail to meet those needs?
Countries that were conquered during WWII were looted. Switzerland was not a military threat, but would have been conquered and looted as soon as resources were available. Yes, sometimes you have to "shoot twice" that's life. The French Underground was a good example. They never really stopped resisting. So I guess you would never choose violence as a course of action? Ghandi would have been a better example for you, although nowadays they too are a member of the nuke club.

Libertarianism is not based on science. I have no reference for defending it. You have not posited a clear specific argument where AnCap is sustainable. The Wikipedia article mentions historical roots to related philosophies, but that's like saying we have a mission to Alpha Centauri planned because we went to the moon. I think your philosophy has a lot of development to do and probably requires a technological breakthrough of some sort before it should be attempted.
5865  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Max Keiser - "Libertarians are Intellectually Lazy & Idiots" on: August 09, 2012, 02:22:50 PM
Behaviorists believe human nature has needs that must be met before it realizes its potential. Without these needs being met, people are dysfunctional. Libertarianism does not offer to meet basic human needs for anyone other than to say "someone else" will do it.

OK, you're going to have to explain that one in more detail. I think I know where you're coming from with that, but I want to be sure.
I don't know how much detail you want. That's what Universities are for. Well just look at all the marvelous technological development that came from feudalism. Basically nothing other that sharper sticks and throwing bigger stones. Even before Maslow, Jesus and others said we are our brother's keeper. Since the 1940s when we established social safety nets, Europe and America have created a technological explosion. We make nuclear power instead of just nuclear bombs. We make moon rockets instead of just missiles. If America, Europe and USSR decided to punish Germany by genocide, they would have reverted to their monarchic roots. Instead they rebuild Germany, well mostly. If America had rebuilt Afghanistan in the 1990s, there would be much more progress there.

How would a Libertarian country deal with being in the middle of global conflict?

None of that even touched the original statement. I'll answer your question, but I'd appreciate an explanation of what basic needs need to be met, and how libertarianism doesn't offer to meet them.

Now, as to your question, I assume by "in the middle of", you mean in a position similar to Switzerland during WWII. And, in my opinion, it would be handled much like it was by Switzerland. Free trade with whomever came peacefully, and armed resistance to any who came in aggression.
Switzerland was in no position to take sides even if they wanted to. Bad example. What if England chose to remain neutral in WWII?

To answer your scholastic question about the needs of human nature I'll refer to Maslow since he is the simplest to argue. As long as physiological, safety, interpersonal, and esteem needs are met, people will thrive. It should be our goal to create a community that fosters these to the best of our ability. The rewards for doing so will be ever improving technology.
5866  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Max Keiser - "Libertarians are Intellectually Lazy & Idiots" on: August 09, 2012, 02:05:21 PM
Behaviorists believe human nature has needs that must be met before it realizes its potential. Without these needs being met, people are dysfunctional. Libertarianism does not offer to meet basic human needs for anyone other than to say "someone else" will do it.

OK, you're going to have to explain that one in more detail. I think I know where you're coming from with that, but I want to be sure.
I don't know how much detail you want. That's what Universities are for. Well just look at all the marvelous technological development that came from feudalism. Basically nothing other that sharper sticks and throwing bigger stones. Even before Maslow, Jesus and others said we are our brother's keeper. Since the 1940s when we established social safety nets, Europe and America have created a technological explosion. We make nuclear power instead of just nuclear bombs. We make moon rockets instead of just missiles. If America, Europe and USSR decided to punish Germany by genocide, they would have reverted to their monarchic roots. Instead they rebuild Germany, well mostly. If America had rebuilt Afghanistan in the 1990s, there would be much more progress there.

How would a Libertarian country deal with being in the middle of global conflict?
5867  Bitcoin / Project Development / [Idea] Escrow Self-Insurance on: August 09, 2012, 01:41:04 PM
Think of it as insurance. Instead of paying a premium that pays if you get scammed or paying an arbitration service to settle transaction disputes, just offer your customers Statistical Escrow Arbitration. Vendors can require a down payment to be made with the rest locked in a 2-of-3 transaction. Three keys are created, one by the seller, one by the buyer, and one by an automated third party service. If the two parties are satisfied with their own resolution, then the private keys can go to whomever it belongs, if they cannot, then the third party is activated.

The service might payout to the vendor a percentage based on agreed terms. Depending on the relationship between the buyer and seller it could be 1-100%. The vendor already has a down payment and not as much to lose. Scammers would be deterred by the fact that they will lose their down payment and probably their escrow if they are not rated highly by the vendor. Good customers will be assured that even if something goes wrong and they are not able to resolve a dispute with the vendor, they still have a chance to get some of their money back.

Many businesses offer money-back guarantees. Most businesses allow returns. This can be just a useful good-faith business practice that ensures customers and vendors keep each other honest.

For instance:
100% = I don't trust you yet, but I will not take the money until either the goods are delivered and a period has elapsed. Let's do business.
80% = Our business relationship is improving. I'm offering additional insurance to win you over.
50% = Things are going great. I trust you, you trust me. This insurance will keep things improving.
20% = I really enjoy our business relationship and trust you to make the best judgements.
1% = You have been such a loyal customer for so long that I want you to be happy no matter what. But I at least need a chance to get paid.
5868  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Max Keiser - "Libertarians are Intellectually Lazy & Idiots" on: August 09, 2012, 01:11:11 PM
I'm afraid you're wrong about wanting "nothing to replace it"

And Ron Paul isn't my Poster boy. I'm not a political Libertarian, I'm an agorist. That means I want to build the replacement system right now, within the shell of the old failing one, so that when it crumbles (oh, and it will, on that, I think we can agree), the new way is there to take up the slack.

A few links that may help you understand my position:
http://freekeene.com/files/marketforliberty.pdf
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/146411/BookClub/NLM.epub
http://agorism.info/

But before you read those, I want to ask you, What is it about human nature that you believe libertarianism would need to change?
This system will crumble. What takes its place will probably the same thing that always does. Feudalism. It may be a more technological feudalism, but violence will be at its core.

I didn't define human nature. I said behaviorists are working on that. How do you fix a problem when you can't even define it?

Well, you're the one that says there's a problem. How can you point out a problem, if you can't define it?

Libertarians think human nature is fine as is. We just need to build a system around it, instead of trying to build a system to constrain it.
Behaviorists believe human nature has needs that must be met before it realizes its potential. Without these needs being met, people are dysfunctional. Libertarianism does not offer to meet basic human needs for anyone other than to say "someone else" will do it.
5869  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Max Keiser - "Libertarians are Intellectually Lazy & Idiots" on: August 09, 2012, 12:53:00 PM
I'm afraid you're wrong about wanting "nothing to replace it"

And Ron Paul isn't my Poster boy. I'm not a political Libertarian, I'm an agorist. That means I want to build the replacement system right now, within the shell of the old failing one, so that when it crumbles (oh, and it will, on that, I think we can agree), the new way is there to take up the slack.

A few links that may help you understand my position:
http://freekeene.com/files/marketforliberty.pdf
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/146411/BookClub/NLM.epub
http://agorism.info/

But before you read those, I want to ask you, What is it about human nature that you believe libertarianism would need to change?
This system will crumble. What takes its place will probably the same thing that always does. Feudalism. It may be a more technological feudalism, but violence will be at its core.

I didn't define human nature. I said behaviorists are working on that. How do you fix a problem when you can't even define it?
5870  Economy / Speculation / Re: Holy fuuck, look at that non-wall ! on: August 09, 2012, 12:43:56 PM
I'm scared.
Nothing to see here. Move along.
5871  Economy / Speculation / Re: Holy fuuck, look at that non-wall ! on: August 09, 2012, 12:40:12 PM
Oh sweet, now Clark Moody is show the high of the day at 1000000000.00 hahaha.  "Yep, nothing wrong here!" - Tux

Really? You must be using your own custom clark moody, mine clearly states 11.98998 as high of day.
Quote
Last price:$11.78939
High:$1,000,000,000.00000
5872  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Max Keiser - "Libertarians are Intellectually Lazy & Idiots" on: August 09, 2012, 12:21:58 PM
This is why I have abandoned all the movements to change society. John Lennon had it right in Revolution. Bitcoin is a technology that can help bring positive changes. It won't happen in my lifetime, but this is a revolution in how to think about money.

Just because it's hard doesn't mean it's impossible. Just look at the progress made already in the Free State Project.

Quote from: Henry Ford
If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right.
First you have to change human nature (whatever you think it is). That will take awhile. Behaviorists are working on that, but it won't happen soon. Ford was talking about nuts and bolts, not social mechanisms. Bitcoin is nuts and bolts that make us think about new paradigms, but it doesn't offer any solutions to social problems.

Libertarianism has no plans to change human nature. We want to change the structure of society to utilize human nature, rather than fight against it.
No you don't. Here is where I call you out  as a Libertarian. Your poster boy Ron Paul wants to destroy the current structure without anything to replace it. I am all for that just as long as he and everyone else is willing to give up all private property and money and start over. But no. He wants to keep his wealth and take away the structure that allowed him to aggregate it in the first place. That's where I part with Libertarians.
5873  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Will deflation be the fatal weakness of bitcoin? on: August 09, 2012, 12:12:27 PM
Is gold still a currency? lols
Lol for you gold is worthless?

0/10 troll.

Gold is not a currency anymore. Those who still believe it is should read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard.
Gold and silver are legal tender in Utah.
5874  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Max Keiser - "Libertarians are Intellectually Lazy & Idiots" on: August 09, 2012, 12:07:05 PM
This is why I have abandoned all the movements to change society. John Lennon had it right in Revolution. Bitcoin is a technology that can help bring positive changes. It won't happen in my lifetime, but this is a revolution in how to think about money.

Just because it's hard doesn't mean it's impossible. Just look at the progress made already in the Free State Project.

Quote from: Henry Ford
If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right.
First you have to change human nature (whatever you think it is). That will take awhile. Behaviorists are working on that, but it won't happen soon. Ford was talking about nuts and bolts, not social mechanisms. Bitcoin is nuts and bolts that make us think about new paradigms, but it doesn't offer any solutions to social problems.
5875  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Max Keiser - "Libertarians are Intellectually Lazy & Idiots" on: August 09, 2012, 11:56:49 AM
Libertarians believe in no government and survival of the strongest. Historically Libertarians practice continuous warfare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism#History Other than Vikings living through raiding unsuspecting villages, I don't see a culture of selfishness actually working. Eventually collectivism of some sort will overpower warlords.

WTF have you been smoking?

You take one example, of Medieval Iceland, twist it all up wrong, and say "historically Libertarians practice continuous warfare"? Come on, man. Nobody can be that stupid. You have to be trolling. The Vikings were from Norway.  Roll Eyes

Tell me how a society based on this practices continuous warfare.
I simply asked for an historical example. The ones I was given were the Vikings that colonized Iceland and Early America that conquered and enslaved indigenous tribes. Neither lasted nor are even theoretically sustainable. I just think that Libertarianism is a pipe dream that does not consider the complexities of global affairs.

You're looking at the non-libertarian potions of the offered example societies, and saying, "see, libertarianism promotes these bad things" The problem is, that portions of an AnCap society have been implemented, but never the whole thing before. So any (non-fiction) example I give you is going to have holes. I can give fictional accounts of what an AnCap society might look like, if you'll take those as examples. I can give you theoretical constructions of the entire society, as well.

But to answer the original question, Why hasn't it been done before, the answer is pretty simple. The gangs who claim to be in charge of the land where we might set one up seem to feel that our trying would be a threat to their control. That, in and of itself, is all the evidence I need to be confident that it would work.
This is why I have abandoned all the movements to change society. John Lennon had it right in Revolution. Bitcoin is a technology that can help bring positive changes. It won't happen in my lifetime, but this is a revolution in how to think about money.
5876  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Max Keiser - "Libertarians are Intellectually Lazy & Idiots" on: August 09, 2012, 11:31:36 AM
Libertarians believe in no government and survival of the strongest. Historically Libertarians practice continuous warfare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism#History Other than Vikings living through raiding unsuspecting villages, I don't see a culture of selfishness actually working. Eventually collectivism of some sort will overpower warlords.

WTF have you been smoking?

You take one example, of Medieval Iceland, twist it all up wrong, and say "historically Libertarians practice continuous warfare"? Come on, man. Nobody can be that stupid. You have to be trolling. The Vikings were from NorwayRoll Eyes

Tell me how a society based on this practices continuous warfare.
I simply asked for an historical example. The ones I was given were the Vikings that colonized Iceland and Early America that conquered and enslaved indigenous tribes. Neither lasted nor are even theoretically sustainable. I just think that Libertarianism is a pipe dream that does not consider the complexities of global affairs.
5877  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Max Keiser - "Libertarians are Intellectually Lazy & Idiots" on: August 09, 2012, 11:00:59 AM
I would like to see a real Libertarian plan for a civilization that would actually work. If there is one, why haven't they created it yet?

You are taking part in it. The plan is to just replace governments and their creations piece by piece with superior decentralized alternatives. If these alternatives don't get created or adopted, perhaps there is still a need for government intervention in that realm. The idea that everything should be planned out beforehand is for other people to do.
I see the decentralization movement not replacing government, just decentralizing it. Libertarians believe in no government and survival of the strongest. Historically Libertarians practice continuous warfare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism#History Other than Vikings living through raiding unsuspecting villages, I don't see a culture of selfishness actually working. Eventually collectivism of some sort will overpower warlords.

I can see Bitcoin promoting privacy where government does not interfere with the individual without cause, such as taxation without representation. In fact, Bitcoin will probably eliminate the need for national borders and limit the ability of large-scale warfare because money is globally interdependent.

What is America? look at all our wars.
That's easy, America is a Corporatocracy.

since when
Since before you were born.
5878  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Fred Wilson's (Union Square Ventures) thoughts on bitcoin on: August 09, 2012, 10:59:17 AM
Vulture Capitalists will never understand Bitcoin. Who cares about them? Bitcoin is their Extinction Level Event.
5879  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Max Keiser - "Libertarians are Intellectually Lazy & Idiots" on: August 09, 2012, 10:39:11 AM
I would like to see a real Libertarian plan for a civilization that would actually work. If there is one, why haven't they created it yet?

You are taking part in it. The plan is to just replace governments and their creations piece by piece with superior decentralized alternatives. If these alternatives don't get created or adopted, perhaps there is still a need for government intervention in that realm. The idea that everything should be planned out beforehand is for other people to do.
I see the decentralization movement not replacing government, just decentralizing it. Libertarians believe in no government and survival of the strongest. Historically Libertarians practice continuous warfare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism#History Other than Vikings living through raiding unsuspecting villages, I don't see a culture of selfishness actually working. Eventually collectivism of some sort will overpower warlords.

I can see Bitcoin promoting privacy where government does not interfere with the individual without cause, such as taxation without representation. In fact, Bitcoin will probably eliminate the need for national borders and limit the ability of large-scale warfare because money is globally interdependent.

What is America? look at all our wars.
That's easy, America is a Corporatocracy.
5880  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Max Keiser - "Libertarians are Intellectually Lazy & Idiots" on: August 09, 2012, 10:35:14 AM
I would like to see a real Libertarian plan for a civilization that would actually work. If there is one, why haven't they created it yet?

You are taking part in it. The plan is to just replace governments and their creations piece by piece with superior decentralized alternatives. If these alternatives don't get created or adopted, perhaps there is still a need for government intervention in that realm. The idea that everything should be planned out beforehand is for other people to do.
I see the decentralization movement not replacing government, just decentralizing it. Libertarians believe in no government and survival of the strongest. Historically Libertarians practice continuous warfare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism#History Other than Vikings living through raiding unsuspecting villages, I don't see a culture of selfishness actually working. Eventually collectivism of some sort will overpower warlords.

I can see Bitcoin promoting privacy where government does not interfere with the individual without cause, such as taxation without representation. In fact, Bitcoin will probably eliminate the need for national borders and limit the ability of large-scale warfare because money is globally interdependent.
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