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5921  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 18, 2014, 12:39:28 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-O--m7Uz80&sns=em
5922  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 18, 2014, 12:21:29 AM
lemme know when NXT gets outta this funk:



Will do. It will be likely sooner then you think. Some killer features are right around the corner... the amazing multigateway being the first piece of that puzzle.

i'm sure it will be amazing!

right after they change the code again!
5923  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 18, 2014, 12:17:01 AM
gold down already $5.50.  struggling to hold 1300:

5924  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 18, 2014, 12:14:09 AM
lemme know when NXT gets outta this funk:

5925  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bitcoin now looks like a mature technology on: August 18, 2014, 12:05:20 AM
http://www.downside.com/
5926  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bitcoin now looks like a mature technology on: August 17, 2014, 11:49:41 PM
...


that was beautiful. couldn't have done nearly as well myself.  Cheesy

Nagle, you seem to have difficulty observing trends.  Bitcoin has seen astounding growth, just over the past year, never mind before that.  i won't go too hard on you; i don't have the energy right now but the mere fact that BitPay is offering free tx processing is going to bring in legions of merchants who will be able to decrease prices, to then be followed by consumers wishing to avail themselves of those discounts.

Bitcoin is growing worldwide and ATM's are spreading like wildfire.  it' perfectly normal to have lull periods like we're seeing now only to be followed by explosive periods of new growth.  it's coming.  don't be left behind anymore than you already have.

5927  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 17, 2014, 11:33:52 PM

The Nxt community was debating "rewriting history" to rollback the theft from Bter!  The users become the attackers, and in their echo chamber they decide to make up whatever truth appears convenient at the time.  If you don't see this, then you don't want to see it.  

On the topic of a single malicious cabal attacking the network, the cabal needs only 51% of what is currently staked, which may be significantly less than 51% of the money supply.  Furthermore, the cabal can attack with coins they once had but have since sold.  This is the nothing-at-stake problem (aka the history-rewrite problem).  This can be prevented with checkpoints or if the developers sign blocks as valid, but then your decentralized currency is no longer decentralized!  We saw this with the viacoin roll back or fork it and get rid of it.

Lastly, the idea that some special sauce known as "transparent forging" will require 90% of the critical resource to attack is a highly dubious claim.  I strongly suspect that the following PoX Theorem holds:

A malicious user controlling 51% of the critical resource X in a PoX distributed consensus system can attack the network.
  

Bitcoin was "rolled back" at one point in the early days.  Whether objective or subjective, no one wanted 92 billion bitcoins to remain in the blockchain and controlled by a single entity.  If that were to happen today I almost guarantee the miners would find a way to roll it back.  

The fact is nxt worked as advertised.  The developers released a patch to roll back the transaction but it was unsuccessful, proving that they did not have complete control over the network and the integrity of the currency remained intact.  POS is subject to similar game theory type stuff as POW.  Why would someone who has a large stake in the system attempt to compromise it?

We can debate whether POW or POS can be compromised, but the fact is cryptocurrency is proven to be sound money once relatively mature.  If 5% (or 7% in bitcoin's case - mtgox) of US dollars had somehow been stolen, you can be guaranteed that the federal reserve would have arbitrarily started a counterfeit program (2008 bailouts and QE).  Our systems are better and the beauty is users have a choice of POW or POS.

i see plenty of differences:

Bitcoin's "rollbacks" in the past were from code bugs, one of which was exploited to generate a massive output of invalid BTC's and the other which caused a fork.  an immediate consensus was gained from the community to patch the technical bugs with new code prior to it being released; otherwise repeated occurrences of the problems could reasonably be expected which threatened the long term viability of the system itself.

in NXT's case, the NXT stolen was due to a weakness in Bter's security, not a bug in the NXT code, let alone one that threatened the viability of NXT.  for crony economic reasons only, a rollback was offered in the form of a patch from the devs despite what looked like a consensus not to offer it.  this makes it much different from what happened in Bitcoin and was an expression of the biased motives of the stakeholders in charge of the code and that of the influence of Bter.  the next time something like this happens, no one can predict how they will act, whereas with Bitcoin, you can be sure no one will rollback code just to save someone some money.  

Except the fork never happened, for all the reasons you just specified, so none of that really matters. Thats really the biggest difference. It's open source software,  anyone can put up a version for people to use but clearly people didn't want to run it. It didn't happen this time and it's unlikely to happen next time.

it does matter b/c the NXT devs (not just anyone) were the ones to introduce the patch and thus have been shown to be susceptible to political and economic machinations/manipulations w/o even bothering to gain a community consensus.

edit:  and the NXT devs have the greatest at stake and thus the most to lose thus making their actions entirely self serving.
5928  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 17, 2014, 11:32:11 PM
HAHAHA im sorry but i find that absolutely hilarious lol not because i disagree, i do agree it is/will be, but because of all the pow buffs fighting the pow corner so hard and then someone, that so many pow buffs have put on a crypto pedestal and someone so high profile, turns around and says pow is dead... after all these PoW buffs have given him millions.. that is priceless!!!!!! Cheesy OMG LOLZ... hahaha

If Ethereum merged with BitShares and used DPoS it would be hilarious indeed.  I think my fellow "PoW buffs" would agree.  Personally, I don't believe this rumour, however. 
Funny thing about those projects:

BitShares (Invictus) was the sinking ship that Charles Hoskinson bailed from after he bailed from Mastercoin (and bailed from the Bitcoin Education Project before that), prior to bailing from the Ethereum project.

I wonder if there's some common thread between all those projects besides the fact that Hoskinson got involved with them, pumped them up, and bailed...

funny, i was thinking of Hoskinson's role in all these as well.
5929  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 17, 2014, 11:29:47 PM
the way consensus works in an open source community is that an overwhelming majority (not just a majority) of the community members involved get to voice their opinions and come to an agreement that a change is necessary.  the few who may not fully agree with the changes usually still can live with the changes enacted.

in NXT's case, the devs never had a consensus; they just unilaterally thru a rollback patch out to the community to placate Bter and to see what would happen.  what happened may be a majority mechanism but it is not a consensus mechanism.
5930  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 17, 2014, 11:18:43 PM

The Nxt community was debating "rewriting history" to rollback the theft from Bter!  The users become the attackers, and in their echo chamber they decide to make up whatever truth appears convenient at the time.  If you don't see this, then you don't want to see it.  

On the topic of a single malicious cabal attacking the network, the cabal needs only 51% of what is currently staked, which may be significantly less than 51% of the money supply.  Furthermore, the cabal can attack with coins they once had but have since sold.  This is the nothing-at-stake problem (aka the history-rewrite problem).  This can be prevented with checkpoints or if the developers sign blocks as valid, but then your decentralized currency is no longer decentralized!  We saw this with the viacoin roll back or fork it and get rid of it.

Lastly, the idea that some special sauce known as "transparent forging" will require 90% of the critical resource to attack is a highly dubious claim.  I strongly suspect that the following PoX Theorem holds:

A malicious user controlling 51% of the critical resource X in a PoX distributed consensus system can attack the network.
  

Bitcoin was "rolled back" at one point in the early days.  Whether objective or subjective, no one wanted 92 billion bitcoins to remain in the blockchain and controlled by a single entity.  If that were to happen today I almost guarantee the miners would find a way to roll it back.  

The fact is nxt worked as advertised.  The developers released a patch to roll back the transaction but it was unsuccessful, proving that they did not have complete control over the network and the integrity of the currency remained intact.  POS is subject to similar game theory type stuff as POW.  Why would someone who has a large stake in the system attempt to compromise it?

We can debate whether POW or POS can be compromised, but the fact is cryptocurrency is proven to be sound money once relatively mature.  If 5% (or 7% in bitcoin's case - mtgox) of US dollars had somehow been stolen, you can be guaranteed that the federal reserve would have arbitrarily started a counterfeit program (2008 bailouts and QE).  Our systems are better and the beauty is users have a choice of POW or POS.

i see plenty of differences:

Bitcoin's "rollbacks" in the past were from code bugs, one of which was exploited to generate a massive output of invalid BTC's and the other which caused a fork.  an immediate consensus was gained from the community to patch the technical bugs with new code prior to it being released; otherwise repeated occurrences of the problems could reasonably be expected which threatened the long term viability of the system itself.

in NXT's case, the NXT stolen was due to a weakness in Bter's security, not a bug in the NXT code, let alone one that threatened the viability of NXT.  for crony economic reasons only, a rollback was offered in the form of a patch from the devs despite what looked like a consensus not to offer it.  this makes it much different from what happened in Bitcoin and was an expression of the biased motives of the stakeholders in charge of the code and that of the influence of Bter.  the next time something like this happens, no one can predict how they will act, whereas with Bitcoin, you can be sure no one will rollback code just to save someone some money but only to save the system.
5931  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 17, 2014, 10:20:06 PM
Again, Vitalik has been doing a TON of research on this topic and look what he found: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6990

is there a mirror site for bitshares.org? it wont load for me at all. wouldnt earlier ether, even the homepage.. :/

Hmm your right but no I don't know a mirror. Basically it looks like Ethereum is going to be teaming up with bitshares and DPOS (similar to how nxt works) he is quoted as saying that it has become clear the POW is dead.

you are simply delusional:

5932  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 17, 2014, 08:06:25 PM
What exactly does this "objective truth" mean?

This reminds me of conversations with my mother.  She believes that her belief system creates reality.  I believe that reality exists independently of myself (although I concede that my belief system influences my perception of reality).  

Here's an example of the objective truth:

Alice and Bob each throw a rock into the lake.  Alice throws hers in first, it makes a splash, and then Bob throws his in.  If this event occurred, then it is objectively true that Alice threw her rock into the lake first.  Even if Bob convinces the world that the opposite happened (because Bob is popular and wealthy), and even if everyone calls Alice a liar, it doesn't change what was objectively true:  Alice threw the rock into the lake first.  

PoW is a system that achieves distributed consensus on what is objectively true.  PoS is a system that allows history to be rewritten based on popular opinion.  

In both systems consensus is the objective truth... I don't see the difference.

read the paper PeterR and Justus referenced.

the "truth" in a POW system is determined by the objective laws of thermodynamics which are fundamental laws that exist outside the POW system.  it cannot be gamed by the stakeholders.

the "truth" in a POS system is not determined by any such laws outside its own system.  it is self referencing, aka an echo chamber, of whatever the stakeholders "want" to be the truth, whether objective or not.  it can be gamed by the stakeholders, if they all agree.
5933  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 17, 2014, 02:41:19 PM
Meanwhile, holdings in Belgium climbed $1.7 billion last month to $364.1 billion, the report showed.

Code words:  US. gubmint

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-15/u-s-investment-outflow-reaches-record-as-china-sells-treasuries.html

How long until Belgium owns the US? The they can start auctioning off cities. New York people. Any takers? Wink

Hopefully they'll auction off Ben Lawsky first.

Are you interested in acquiring him?

He's already been acquired; by the banks.
5934  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 17, 2014, 12:59:23 PM
Meanwhile, holdings in Belgium climbed $1.7 billion last month to $364.1 billion, the report showed.

Code words:  US. gubmint

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-15/u-s-investment-outflow-reaches-record-as-china-sells-treasuries.html
5935  Economy / Speculation / Re: Ethereum KILLING BITCOIN! on: August 17, 2014, 02:33:07 AM
They collected over 4k btc?  For vaporware?  I'm in the wrong line of work...  Shocked

silverbox!

where the hell you been, man!

Having kids, driving fast cars, smoking fat stogies, working.

 Grin

Took a month off of work, have a bit of time to read the forums.

Glad to hear you're well.

Having kids? Wow, thought you were much older than that.

Things have changed quite a bit since we were at it way back when.

Thx.  Your probably doing fine as well, as its unlikely you sold more then a small portion of your stash Wink.

New woman, new kid..  s??  You might know the drill Wink.

Yeah.  I still have most of my coins.  Patience is a virtue.  Had to get a few toys and upgrade the homestead thu..  Smiley

The debates on here don't change thu, just the price points Wink 

The only remaining question is whether to be Jet people or Yacht people Wink  Might take a few years for me, you should be there already Wink

New woman, new kids? Hell no, too cheap for that. Fastest way to poverty.

Ladies and gentleman, this is the infamous silverbox, of the silverbox update, from my gold thread. He won a battle from me when he won 10BTC from me in a bet that Apple wouldn't drop below 500 by a certain date. It eventually did a few months later but I was stupid and he was smart.

I think I won the war, however, with the Silver Slingshot.  Wink
5936  Economy / Speculation / Re: Ethereum KILLING BITCOIN! on: August 17, 2014, 01:58:27 AM
They collected over 4k btc?  For vaporware?  I'm in the wrong line of work...  Shocked

silverbox!

where the hell you been, man!

Having kids, driving fast cars, smoking fat stogies, working.

 Grin

Took a month off of work, have a bit of time to read the forums.

Glad to hear you're well.

Having kids? Wow, thought you were much older than that.

Things have changed quite a bit since we were at it way back when.
5937  Economy / Speculation / Re: Ethereum KILLING BITCOIN! on: August 17, 2014, 01:33:47 AM
They collected over 4k btc?  For vaporware?  I'm in the wrong line of work...  Shocked

silverbox!

where the hell you been, man!
5938  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 16, 2014, 10:26:20 PM
Keep buying dips.
5939  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 16, 2014, 12:07:04 AM
It takes chutzpah.
The Fed says that the Gold standard doesn't work because it can be ended by the politicians at the behest of the Fed.

They can be expected to try to use the same reasoning with bitcoin... but only if they first make it the bitcoin standard?  Somehow I think that simply asking for it all by force of law probably won't work again the same way Roosevelt took the gold.

Yeah,  you picked on that shit too? Amazing.   

ZH recently had an interesting article on Warren Buffet's father's support for the gold standard. It's worth a read.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-14/70-years-later-warren-buffetts-dad-proved-right-about-everything

What I find interesting is all of the reasons he uses to support gold can just as easily be applied to bitcoin today. From this view bitcoin simply becomes a better implementation of the gold standard, largely because it is less manipulable.

Some extracts from the article and Buffet's letter:

Quote
Unlike his son who has lauded the Federal Reserve and in particular its former chairman Ben Bernanke, along with others who intervened during and after the financial crisis of 2008, Howard Buffett was an outspoken proponent of laissez-faire economics and sound money. In a 1948 article he wrote:

Quote from: WarrenBuffetsDad
Is there a connection between Human Freedom and A Gold Redeemable Money? At first glance it would seem that money belongs to the world of economics and human freedom to the political sphere.
 
But when you recall that one of the first moves by Lenin, Mussolini and Hitler was to outlaw individual ownership of gold, you begin to sense that there may be some connection between money, redeemable in gold, and the rare prize known as human liberty.
 
Also, when you find that Lenin declared and demonstrated that a sure way to overturn the existing social order and bring about communism was by printing press paper money, then again you are impressed with the possibility of a relationship between a gold-backed money and human freedom…
 
The subject of a Hitler or a Stalin is a serf by the mere fact that his money can be called in and depreciated at the whim of his rulers…
 
Under such conditions [of depreciating currency] the individual citizen is deprived of freedom of movement. He is prevented from laying away purchasing power for the future. He becomes dependent upon the goodwill of the politicians for his daily bread. Unless he lives on land that will sustain him, freedom for him does not exist…

Buffett argues that the lack of a gold standard meant that Congress was unrestrained in spending money to cater to various interest groups, stating “With no bad immediate consequence it becomes expedient to accede to a spending demand. The Treasury is seemingly inexhaustible. Besides the unorganized taxpayers back home may not notice this particular expenditure — and so it goes.” Further:

Quote from: WarrenBuffetsDad
Far away from Congress is the real forgotten man, the taxpayer who foots the bill. He is in a different spot from the tax-eater or the business that makes millions from spending schemes. He cannot afford to spend his time trying to oppose Federal expenditures. He has to earn his own living and carry the burden of taxes as well.
 
But for most beneficiaries a Federal paycheck soon becomes vital in his life. He usually will spend his full energies if necessary to hang onto this income.
 
The taxpayer is completely outmatched in such an unequal contest. Always heretofore he possessed an equalizer. If government finances weren’t run according to his idea of soundness he had an individual right to protect himself by obtaining gold.
 
With a restoration of the gold standard, Congress would have to again resist handouts. That would work this way. If Congress seemed receptive to reckless spending schemes, depositors’ demands over the country for gold would soon become serious. That alarm in turn would quickly be reflected in the halls of Congress. The legislators would learn from the banks back home and from the Treasury officials that confidence in the Treasury was endangered.
 
Congress would be forced to confront spending demands with firmness. The gold standard acted as a silent watchdog to prevent unlimited public spending.

Buffett ends his column with this warning:

Quote from: WarrenBuffetsDad

Because of our economic strength the paper money disease here may take many years to run its course.
 
But we can be approaching the critical stage. When that day arrives, our political rulers will probably find that foreign war and ruthless regimentation is the cunning alternative to domestic strife. That was the way out for the paper-money economy of Hitler and others. In these remarks I have only touched the high points of this problem. I hope that I have given you enough information to challenge you to make a serious study of it.
 
I warn you that politicians of both parties will oppose the restoration of gold, although they may outwardly seemingly favor it. Also those elements here and abroad who are getting rich from the continued American inflation will oppose a return to sound money. You must be prepared to meet their opposition intelligently and vigorously. They have had 15 years of unbroken victory.
 
But, unless you are willing to surrender your children and your country to galloping inflation, war and slavery, then this cause demands your support. For if human liberty is to survive in America, we must win the battle to restore honest money.
 
There is no more important challenge facing us than this issue — the restoration of your freedom to secure gold in exchange for the fruits of your labors.

In the end those who argued against FDR and Wilson will be proven right. My fear is no one alive will notice or care. Bitcoin is our escape from this.


that was interesting.

sounds like Warren didn't like his dad.
5940  Economy / Speculation / Re: Time to face the truth and cash out while it's still worth something on: August 15, 2014, 11:59:01 PM
where is real estate starting to suffer again? in my market were on the rise, as well as most surrounding areas.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg8369293#msg8369293
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