Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.

[_mr_e]

Lol, NXT has a plan! It's called the rollback machine!  :

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2dmccc/chinese_trading_platform_btercom_announcesomeone/

Nxt did not fork and bter has gotten most of the nxt back. I am now more bullish then ever! With the release of the instantdex around the corner (near instant trading on the asset exchange and decentralized crypto to crypto, nxt is preparing to be a force to be reckoned with.

I was quite impressed with nxt.  The developers released a version of the client that would reverse the stolen transaction only but the forgers did not accept the change.  This demonstrates the power of distributed consensus and hopefully the world takes notice.  Obvious threat to central banks is obvious.  Maybe POS has merit after all. 

Looks like Vitalik and Ethereum agree with you: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6990

[Peter R]

Lol, NXT has a plan! It's called the rollback machine!  :

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2dmccc/chinese_trading_platform_btercom_announcesomeone/

Nxt did not fork and bter has gotten most of the nxt back. I am now more bullish then ever! With the release of the instantdex around the corner (near instant trading on the asset exchange and decentralized crypto to crypto, nxt is preparing to be a force to be reckoned with.

I was quite impressed with nxt.  The developers released a version of the client that would reverse the stolen transaction only but the forgers did not accept the change.  This demonstrates the power of distributed consensus and hopefully the world takes notice.  Obvious threat to central banks is obvious.  Maybe POS has merit after all. 

The rollback discussion did the opposite to me.  It proved the PoS achieves consensus by popular opinion rather than by objective truth.  With PoW, you must expend resources to "vote" on your chain, so you pick the single best chain based on a mathematically-defined selection criteria (mining two competing chains would be a waste).  Each new block added to the chain decreases the chance of a re-org exponentially, and all the participants realize this, so deep re-orgs are out of the question. 

With PoS, there is no tether to the physical world.  Since there are no resources spent to "vote," stakers can vote on many different chains for very little cost.  Even today, it would be possible to roll back the 50M NXT theft as it costs nothing to change their blockchain.  PoS gives the economic majority the power to rewrite history.  Truth is defined by opinion.

There's a reason the first sentence of 1984 was used as the passphrase for the Nxt Genesis Account. 

[justusranvier]

The rollback discussion did the opposite to me.  It proved the PoS achieves consensus by popular opinion rather than by objective truth.  With PoW, you must expend resources to "vote" on your chain, so you pick the single best chain based on a mathematically-defined selection criteria (mining two competing chains would be a waste).  Each new block added to the chain decreases the chance of a re-org exponentially, and all the participants realize this, so deep re-orgs are out of the question. 

With PoS, there is no tether to the physical world.  Since there are no resources spent to "vote," stakers can vote on many different chains for very little cost.  Even today, it would be possible to roll back the 50M NXT theft as it costs nothing to change their blockchain.  PoS gives the economic majority the power to rewrite history.  Truth is defined by opinion.

There's a reason the first sentence of 1984 was used as the passphrase for the Nxt Genesis Account.

https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

[kodtycoon]

The rollback discussion did the opposite to me.  It proved the PoS achieves consensus by popular opinion rather than by objective truth.  With PoW, you must expend resources to "vote" on your chain, so you pick the single best chain based on a mathematically-defined selection criteria (mining two competing chains would be a waste).  Each new block added to the chain decreases the chance of a re-org exponentially, and all the participants realize this, so deep re-orgs are out of the question.  

With PoS, there is no tether to the physical world.  Since there are no resources spent to "vote," stakers can vote on many different chains for very little cost.  Even today, it would be possible to roll back the 50M NXT theft as it costs nothing to change their blockchain.  PoS gives the economic majority the power to rewrite history.  Truth is defined by opinion.

There's a reason the first sentence of 1984 was used as the passphrase for the Nxt Genesis Account.

https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

all the while nxt and proof of stake is alive and well, growing fast and stealing ethereums customers(1) while they cant decide what consensus mechanism to use

(1): last block of text under "nxt gold"

[justusranvier]

nxt and proof of stake is alive and well, growing fast

So is the Federal Reserve's balance sheet.

WTF does that have to do with whether or not PoS is capable of achieving distributed consensus?

[STT]

To rollback the chain they are first going to have to own alot of coins and be big investors in their total numbers and consensus.     Large amounts of capital invested in a product is just a traditional source of power in a normal capitalist system.   Right now in fiat we have democracy and corruption of capital by politics but a plain old currency system should revolve around respect for those with most to lose from its demise.   Is POS flawed by allowing that Im not sure, the people who use and hold nxt decided it would be a negative, last I read

How long until Belgium owns the US? The they can start auctioning off cities. New York people. Any takers?

As soon as the bonds give any rights they can do that.   All they got is a promise.    They can shut down the government deficit maybe, force raise interest rates and cause alot of fuss but who wants to spend billions making enemies with no profit.  
I'd buy some gold with those bonds asap, likely its a proxy for elements of the EU

[marcus_of_augustus]

To rollback the chain they are first going to have to own alot of coins and be big investors in their total numbers and consensus.     Large amounts of capital invested in a product is just a traditional source of power in a normal capitalist system.   Right now in fiat we have democracy and corruption of capital by politics but a plain old currency system should revolve around respect for those with most to lose from its demise.   Is POS flawed by allowing that Im not sure, the people who use and hold nxt decided it would be a negative, last I read

How long until Belgium owns the US? The they can start auctioning off cities. New York people. Any takers?

As soon as the bonds give any rights they can do that.   All they got is a promise.    They can shut down the government deficit maybe, force raise interest rates and cause alot of fuss but who wants to spend billions making enemies with no profit.  
I'd buy some gold with those bonds asap, likely its a proxy for elements of the EU

A USTbond <=> BTC exchange could open the floodgates ... i.e. repo  market settled in bitcoin.

[kodtycoon]

nxt and proof of stake is alive and well, growing fast

So is the Federal Reserve's balance sheet.

WTF does that have to do with whether or not PoS is capable of achieving distributed consensus?

it has to do with the fact that regardless of your opinion on whether it can achieve consensus, it is still going full steam ahead, building new technology that PoW systems could only dream of.

show me a paper with mathematical proof that what you claim is the truth. with all the smart arses going around claiming such untrusths that one of the smarter arses would have written up a mathmatical paper to prove this hypothesis.. but no...

[justusranvier]

it has to do with the fact that regardless of your opinion on whether it can achieve consensus

I issued no opinion whatsoever about whether or not PoS can achieve consensus.

[kodtycoon]

it has to do with the fact that regardless of your opinion on whether it can achieve consensus

I issued no opinion whatsoever about whether or not PoS can achieve consensus.

sorry.. thought you were the other guy that posted.. my bad..

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg8402251#msg8402251

[_mr_e]

Lol, NXT has a plan! It's called the rollback machine!  :

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2dmccc/chinese_trading_platform_btercom_announcesomeone/

Nxt did not fork and bter has gotten most of the nxt back. I am now more bullish then ever! With the release of the instantdex around the corner (near instant trading on the asset exchange and decentralized crypto to crypto, nxt is preparing to be a force to be reckoned with.

I was quite impressed with nxt.  The developers released a version of the client that would reverse the stolen transaction only but the forgers did not accept the change.  This demonstrates the power of distributed consensus and hopefully the world takes notice.  Obvious threat to central banks is obvious.  Maybe POS has merit after all.  

The rollback discussion did the opposite to me.  It proved the PoS achieves consensus by popular opinion rather than by objective truth.  With PoW, you must expend resources to "vote" on your chain, so you pick the single best chain based on a mathematically-defined selection criteria (mining two competing chains would be a waste).  Each new block added to the chain decreases the chance of a re-org exponentially, and all the participants realize this, so deep re-orgs are out of the question.  

With PoS, there is no tether to the physical world.  Since there are no resources spent to "vote," stakers can vote on many different chains for very little cost.  Even today, it would be possible to roll back the 50M NXT theft as it costs nothing to change their blockchain.  PoS gives the economic majority the power to rewrite history.  Truth is defined by opinion.

There's a reason the first sentence of 1984 was used as the passphrase for the Nxt Genesis Account.  

I think what people are missing is that nxt is not actually a currency. It is a platform that contains a token that is required to use the different features the platform provides. Of course those tokens have value and therefore can be used as a currency but it is not the primary use. Bitcoins primary use is as a currency, which it does well. Nxt provides and asset exchange, a decentralized coin to coin exchange, a digital goods store and many other types of tools that are just not something that bitcoin is for, as a currency first.

I like to think that nxt is a platform built on top of bitcoin. Not in the same sense that http was built on top of tcp but they are connected. Without bitcoin nxt would not have been possible. Bitcoin is layer 1, it provides that connection to the real world as you said.  Then nxt was made possible and it still only possible to get to it through bitcoin. Hence nxt is connected to the real world through bitcoin, which is the gold standard of crypto. Nxt provides extra features on top of bitcoin that bitcoin cannot provide for itself. They are very much intertwined and will feed off of each other's strengths. They are not competitors. Crypto is a brand new thing and perhaps that means that the concept of something being built on top of something is also in a brand new paradigm.

[justusranvier]

it has to do with the fact that regardless of your opinion on whether it can achieve consensus

I issued no opinion whatsoever about whether or not PoS can achieve consensus.

sorry.. thought you were the other guy that posted.. my bad..

I did post a link to a proof that PoS can not achieve distributed consensus, which has an entirely different set of constraints than achieving any kind consensus.

[kodtycoon]

it has to do with the fact that regardless of your opinion on whether it can achieve consensus

I issued no opinion whatsoever about whether or not PoS can achieve consensus.

sorry.. thought you were the other guy that posted.. my bad..

I did post a link to a proof that PoS can not achieve distributed consensus, which has an entirely different set of constraints than achieving any kind consensus.

so you suggest that nxt and other pos systems are not distributed? and instead centralised?

[Peter R]

it has to do with the fact that regardless of your opinion on whether it can achieve consensus

I issued no opinion whatsoever about whether or not PoS can achieve consensus.

sorry.. thought you were the other guy that posted.. my bad..

I suppose I'm the "other guy."  I agree that PoS can achieve consensus.  That was sort of the point of my post.  But the consensus represents the popular opinion of the stakeholders, which is not necessarily the objective truth.  PoS gives the economic majority the power to rewrite history.  Truth is defined by opinion.

[_mr_e]

it has to do with the fact that regardless of your opinion on whether it can achieve consensus

I issued no opinion whatsoever about whether or not PoS can achieve consensus.

sorry.. thought you were the other guy that posted.. my bad..

I suppose I'm the "other guy."  I agree that PoS can achieve consensus.  That was sort of the point of my post.  But the consensus represents the popular opinion of the stakeholders, which is not necessarily the objective truth.  PoS gives the economic majority the power to rewrite history.  Truth is defined by opinion.

What exactly does this "objective truth" mean? In bitcoin the economic majority can just buy more hash power. Either you buy hash power or you buy stake. The main difference being buying stake can be way harder and more expensive while leaving you with more incentive to see your holdings  grow in value rather then depreciate. Just like with bitcoin you can't just create a fork without convincing everyone to use it!

[kodtycoon]

it has to do with the fact that regardless of your opinion on whether it can achieve consensus

I issued no opinion whatsoever about whether or not PoS can achieve consensus.

sorry.. thought you were the other guy that posted.. my bad..

I suppose I'm the "other guy."  I agree that PoS can achieve consensus.  That was sort of the point of my post.  But the consensus represents the popular opinion of the stakeholders, which is not necessarily the objective truth.  PoS gives the economic majority the power to rewrite history.  Truth is defined by opinion.

What exactly does this "objective truth" mean? In bitcoin the economic majority can just buy more hash power. Either you buy hash power or you buy stake. The main difference being buying stake can be way harder and more expensive while leaving you with more incentive to see your holdings  grow in value rather then depreciate

i was going to say what Mr.e just said...

[Peter R]

What exactly does this "objective truth" mean?

This reminds me of conversations with my mother.  She believes that her belief system creates reality.  I believe that reality exists independently of myself (although I concede that my belief system influences my perception of reality). 

Here's an example of the objective truth:

Alice and Bob each throw a rock into the lake.  Alice throws hers in first, it makes a splash, and then Bob throws his in.  If this event occurred, then it is objectively true that Alice threw her rock into the lake first.  Even if Bob convinces the world that the opposite happened (because Bob is popular and wealthy), and even if everyone calls Alice a liar, it doesn't change what was objectively true:  Alice threw the rock into the lake first.   

PoW is a system that achieves distributed consensus on what is objectively true.  PoS is a system that allows history to be rewritten based on popular opinion. 

[BldSwtTrs]

it has to do with the fact that regardless of your opinion on whether it can achieve consensus

I issued no opinion whatsoever about whether or not PoS can achieve consensus.

sorry.. thought you were the other guy that posted.. my bad..

I suppose I'm the "other guy."  I agree that PoS can achieve consensus.  That was sort of the point of my post.  But the consensus represents the popular opinion of the stakeholders, which is not necessarily the objective truth.  PoS gives the economic majority the power to rewrite history.  Truth is defined by opinion.

So you think miners' opinion is the objective truth?

[Peter R]

So you think miners' opinion is the objective truth?

https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

[BldSwtTrs]

PoW is a system that achieves distributed consensus on what is objectively true.  PoS is a system that allows history to be rewritten based on popular opinion. 

You are aware that miners can rewrite history too, right?