Hey Jani, I am curious about your opinion on lower Timing the ICO is very important, and its more art than science. Launching an ICO in the present climate can be challenging: bitcoin is riding high, and many people are buying and holding; ethereum has had its problems over the last few months and as a result investor sentiment (not technology sentiment) is low. Great timing requires you to be very sensitive to external sentiment or to work with someone who is. Do you maybe (as a ICONOMI or individual) think that there is also a problem with low liquidity due to most of the funds stuck in some sort of investments (like ICOs or something else) and there is not enough "free cash" that is searching for new projects? Because for example Wings ICO took off very promising but after first day hype it did not manage to get a lot of funds on the daily basis. So its eather not enough "free floating money" there or just reasons mentioned above in the quote? Opinion whether its a good project or not is put outside in my question. What do you mean low liquidity? You know that there is ~4.5M usd in Iconomi.PERFORMACE fund, and that is before the second round, which will take place sometimes in 2017? I don't see any liquidity problem in the fund since it will take time until those 4.5M+ usd are invested. I am sure that by the time Iconomi will invest the last available funds, the first investments will be at least partially sold and the profits will be available for future investments. This is basic fund management. |
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Looks like those buy pressure steroids on kraken are starting to influence
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...in some cases (most?) value of ICN token would go up even before ICNP realized a profit with closing its investments.
We have said, that we will announce into which ICO the ICNP will invest (after ICO closes, not before to prevent speculations).
So lets illustrate with example of ICO XYZ, into which ICNP invests $500k.
Everyone knows what was the ICO price per token.
3 months later XYZ's tokens are worth 200%, and project seems solid and keeps on growing, so ICNP does not yet close the investment ...
Since everyone knows how much ICNP invested into XYZ, they also can calculate the unrealized value of that investment (~doubled)...
Hence this unrealized profit could be speculatively accounted into the price of ICN token (or at least some part of "20% fee"*** on profits)...
*** please note that fees are not yet set, so 20% is just an illustration
Jaka
This ^^^. This is a big deal I did not realize before about ICONOMI, because I mistakenly thought profit cashouts and dividend distributions for ICNP were going to occur like clockwork every week. ICONOMI is going to be even more awesome than I first thought. strange, since Jani answered your post on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/ICONOMI/comments/5bfdtw/icnp_questions/But you are right, we didn't take under consideration in previous discussions the unrealized profit made "so far". It should, and probably will have affect on ICN price before profit realization by Iconomi team |
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Jaka, I thank you for this answer, it helps me understand a lot.
You have been talking about weekly dividends so I thought you were going to evaluate profit for each ICNP coin position on a week-by-week basis and distribute dividends accordingly. Instead, ICNP may go for months or even years before liquidating its position in a given coin, calculating the profit ONE TIME based on that close-out sale, and THEN distributing profit dividends on the position. So there could be many weeks where no ICNP dividend is distributed because no closures of ICNP coin positions occur during that week. And so in weeks where there are no ICNP position closures, any profits / dividends would come only from ICNX or other fees. Correct?
If this is correct, it is a big deal.
Unrealized profits can grow larger and larger on ICNP investments until those investments are finally cashed out and distributed as dividends, pushing the "fundamentals" price of ICN up week after week as investment profits accumulate before cashout and distribution.
Deferred ICNP dividends should immediately show up as a rise in ICN price. Roughly speaking, future increases in ICN price should always be at least 20% of ICNP pre-cashout profits - more, maybe much more, if speculative frenzy kicks in. As the ICNP Fund grows in size, ICN price could take off like a rocket.
HODL !
Mal, I don't quite understand that part you wrote: Unrealized profits can grow larger and larger on ICNP investments until those investments are finally cashed out and distributed as dividends As far as I understand there is only realized profits. If you don't sell your holdings, you don't have profits. How can unrealized profits go larger on ICNP investments? Do you mean speculations? Daparski, I think he meant that in some cases (most?) value of ICN token would go up even before ICNP realized a profit with closing its investments. We have said, that we will announce into which ICO the ICNP will invest (after ICO closes, not before to prevent speculations). So lets illustrate with example of ICO XYZ, into which ICNP invests $500k. Everyone knows what was the ICO price per token. 3 months later XYZ's tokens are worth 200%, and project seems solid and keeps on growing, so ICNP does not yet close the investment ... Since everyone knows how much ICNP invested into XYZ, they also can calculate the unrealized value of that investment (~doubled)... Hence this unrealized profit could be speculatively accounted into the price of ICN token (or at least some part of "20% fee"*** on profits)... I hope my illustration was clear to understand. From my experience this is how things work in the stock market world... Please note that I am NOT claming that this will happen  as ICO world is clearly a lot different than old economy... *** please note that fees are not yet set, so 20% is just an illustration Jaka yepp, that makes sense. Good old Mal. |
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really like their posts about this stuff. I'm still not too happy with the golem investment, but I can clearly see where ICN is coming from now Golem is a legit project, but also a long term investment. Only reason I didn't enter their ICO was the fact that they didn't have any solution ready for FIAT -> GOLEM at a time. Fiat deposits to their network are needed for them to succeed in their targeted markets. Crypto is still a niche and will stay as long when all the hassle with exchanges, wallets and such is too complicated for businesses who could use their network. Interesting tho, Cashila has FIAT gateways in place so maybe Golem could utilize them.  Crypto is still a niche and will stay as long when all the hassle with exchanges, wallets and such is too complicated for businesses who could use their network.
Exactly! most crypto traders live in their own world and forget that all money invested in ALL cryptos so far is just a small tiny fraction of what is out there. |
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I find these ICO blog series useless for investors. They're mainly addressing people thinking to start their own ICOs. I hope future ICONOMI blogs benefit investors in a more direct way...  No, they are not. Iconomi investors are indirectly investing in ICOs through ICNP. The articles show what are the guidelines and standards of Iconomi for investing in ICOs. After all, we have a hedge fund with 4.5M usd. And also do not forget that investing in ICOs is always associated with some risk. So ICNP team has to make detailed due diligence before investing. But now imagine that ICNP's mentoring team is involved in the ICO into which the fund also invests. This gives ICONOMI a big advantage, as it gets to know the ICO team really personally and also advise on the key decisions. All in all that makes it a better and safer investment. + like Daparski said, community needs to set new rules and standards for ICOs. The whole ICO world will benefit from those. Can you elaborate on that one, I am not sure I understood what you mean But now imagine that ICNP's mentoring team is involved in the ICO into which the fund also invests.
This gives ICONOMI a big advantage, as it gets to know the ICO team really personally and also advise on the key decisions. If Iconomi is to invest into a specific ICO, wouldn't that mean that the team will get to know the ICO members as part of the due diligence? |
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No free day for you guys? |
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I find these ICO blog series useless for investors. They're mainly addressing people thinking to start their own ICOs. I hope future ICONOMI blogs benefit investors in a more direct way... No, they are not. Iconomi investors are indirectly investing in ICOs through ICNP. The articles show what are the guidelines and standards of Iconomi for investing in ICOs. After all, we have a hedge fund with 4.5M usd. |
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really like their posts about this stuff. I'm still not too happy with the golem investment, but I can clearly see where ICN is coming from now they invested very little in golem, I think it was more of a showcase than a real investment |
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Can a single Fund Manager start multiple funds on OFM?
This is the norm on ZuluTrade & eTORO where each Fund Manager can have a High-Risk fund & a Low-Risk fund, etc...
The main goal is to attract fund managers to the platform, this will make the platform robust and create a new found wealth in the crypto space, my major concern here is just that whales may take over the platform How can whales take over the platform? |
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To start a different discussion, everybody should read this article. It has some significant implications about demands for cryptocurrencies among fiat investors and therefore the demand for ICONOMI services. http://theantimedia.org/cash-no-longer-king/good read! Personally, I feel more comfortable having my money on the blockchain and not in some fictional bank ledger that is backed up by toilet paper. It feels like most people are living in the Matrix |
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the answers are clear in the FAQ and WhitePaper So what does the FAQ and whitepaper say is the answer to my scenario I outlined to Jani below? I never found a clear answer there. "Finally, at some time in 1Q 2017 you will make your first dividend payment to the original ICO participants who funded the ICNP original $4.6M. Say for example you invested $500K of ICNP money in the ICO of a new coin. In the week after launch, that coin doubles in price so your $500K investment is now worth $1M, giving an ICNP profit of $500K total. 20% of that $500K or $100K is the amount of profit to be distributed among the original ICO participants.
WHERE DO YOU GET THIS $100K TO DISTRIBUTE AS ETH DIVIDENDS?
Specifically, do you sell 10% of your holdings in the new coin at the end of the first week and hold on to the other 90%? Or do you get the money for dividend distribution from some other source? And if this, WHAT other source?"Mal, this answer is simple, I apologize if it was not addressed before. But first, let me again say that the fees for ICNX or ICNP have not yet been confirmed, so this is just hypothetical ... If ICNP would have 20/2 fee structure, then 20% of all REALISED PROFITS would go from ICNP to ICONOMI as fees. But "realised profits" means that ICNP has to CLOSE its position in that "new coin" first. Only if ICNP liquidates whole $1M investment, then $100k (20% of 500k profit) go as fees to ICONOMI. And this can later be distributed as dividends to ICN token holders. And since vast majority of ICNP's investments will be done in digital currency, so will be later liquidations... For example ICNP recently invested 5000 ETH in Golem, and I expect when this position will close, ICNP will do sell it for ETH... Clear? best, Jaka Jaka, I thank you for this answer, it helps me understand a lot. You have been talking about weekly dividends so I thought you were going to evaluate profit for each ICNP coin position on a week-by-week basis and distribute dividends accordingly. Instead, ICNP may go for months or even years before liquidating its position in a given coin, calculating the profit ONE TIME based on that close-out sale, and THEN distributing profit dividends on the position. So there could be many weeks where no ICNP dividend is distributed because no closures of ICNP coin positions occur during that week. And so in weeks where there are no ICNP position closures, any profits / dividends would come only from ICNX or other fees. Correct? If this is correct, it is a big deal. Unrealized profits can grow larger and larger on ICNP investments until those investments are finally cashed out and distributed as dividends, pushing the "fundamentals" price of ICN up week after week as investment profits accumulate before cashout and distribution.
Deferred ICNP dividends should immediately show up as a rise in ICN price. Roughly speaking, future increases in ICN price should always be at least 20% of ICNP pre-cashout profits - more, maybe much more, if speculative frenzy kicks in. As the ICNP Fund grows in size, ICN price could take off like a rocket.
HODL !Mal, I don't quite understand that part you wrote: Unrealized profits can grow larger and larger on ICNP investments until those investments are finally cashed out and distributed as dividends As far as I understand there is only realized profits. If you don't sell your holdings, you don't have profits. How can unrealized profits go larger on ICNP investments? Do you mean speculations? About dividends, I will compare them to chess rooks - these are powerful tools that are usually used in the late stages of the game. You cannot and probably should not use them in early stages. The same goes for dividends - they will kick off later in the "game" when custom funds will be active on OFM. Until then it is more of a POC with Iconomi 2 funds. Even more reasons to HODL ! |
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There has been a steady rise in buy orders on Kraken. Up from about 400k 24 hours ago to over 550k. I know some that missed out on the 0.00015 to 0.00020 range and now look like missing out on the 0.00020's. Still a few potential whales to take a bite. https://www.kraken.com/chartsYep, something has changed over the past few days 😅😉   wow.. There is a huge difference  Prepare for something big  Good morning all! I was about to post that the buying order book on Kraken just got on steroids And that is before first access to Iconomi platform. With all that bitcoin rally in the last 2 months, ICN is up almost 60% when you look at $ price. And yes, we should look at $ price, since it is the official currency also by Iconomi and it is the most stable. Still can't figure out why people are selling now |
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hahahaha but lets be sirius now I have actually one question for you Daparski. Your question on AMA was:
Can you confirm that ICN deposit option into Iconomi site will be available this year? This is for people who have re-bought on exchanges and want to keep their tokens onsite.
I wonder if this will be availabe just for ICO investors or also for use who missed ICO but bought later on exchange? Do you have some specifics? If I read correctly few "hundret" sites back there should be some kind of a "wallet" for cold storage for all ICN owners, right? Yes, all crypto assets are stored in multi-sig cold storage. I am pretty sure that once deposit option to Iconomi site will be available, it will be open for all. I think they will unite ico.iconomi.net and Iconomi.net sites and allow the deposits at the same time |
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[]cryptohustla 2 points 8 hours ago
For daytraders and speculators Poloniex is needed. In holders perspective Kraken is enough.
[]icojaka 1 point 20 minutes ago
AMA ANSWER: It is up to specific exchanges to decide when they will list ICN.
So now this is the official answer of the dev team ? Disappointing ... So there is no NDA ... nothing ... all was actually transparent and is just the nasty exchanges that added potcoin immediately, but have some grouch with the valuable ICN token. Sure guys ... keep fucking us ... you already have the money, nothing we can do ... right ?
Let me tell you what YOU can do. You can SELL and buy yourself a massive dildo and then FUCK YOURSELF WITH IT. Because you're a fucking pain in the ass with your constant whining.  I am dying hahahaha Since this dumbass perticag is on my ignore list, I don't have the honor reading his whining BS, unless someone else replies. So just wanted to make sure that this little girl cry baby perticag is on the same page: You can SELL and buy yourself a massive dildo and then FUCK YOURSELF WITH IT. Or ask one of your "daytraders investors friends" to help you with it or something like that ?  ooh yeah, that fits. He wants 5x profit, let him sit on 5x dildo first. Needs to work for that profit |
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No, it's not $10 It will take some time to get there ok so whats your prediction for first month of the new year 2017? And im not sure when is the first batch of dividends out for investors? Is it this year or the next year? Also any news on ICONOMI wallet? im asking because some people still have ICNs on kraken or liqui (for liqui im not sure, but you get payed with dividends?) Regarding dividends... dividends are distribution of profits. In order to have profits, ICONOMI must first launch its products and generate revenue. By the end of this year we will launch two investment funds (ICONOMI.index and ICONOMI.performance)... This is where first fees will come from, but we expect profits to seriously ramp up later in 2017 when full OFM platform launches with many fund managers running their respective funds... Regarding their distribution there should be no fear - we will announce the block height of distribution well in advance... So there will be plenty of time to move your ICN tokens to a wallet for which you control private key, or to an exchange that will support eth dividend redistribution... We are a long term business not pump and dump, so do not expect dividends on 1st of January or any time very soon... Re "ICONOMI wallet"... as answered in our recent AMA ( https://www.reddit.com/r/ICONOMI/comments/5ghrp5/askmeanything_icnx_and_iconomiindex_edition/) we will enable ICN deposits on our upcoming platform early next year. Investors will be able to securely store ICN tokens with us (multisig cold wallets)... thank you for information Jaka! as we a re close to launch (ICONOMI.index and ICONOMI.performance) i would like to ask is it ICONOMI.performance meant to be funded by larger amounts of BTC/FIAT/ETH like company founding and mostly by ICONOMI it self and ICONOMI.index will be open to early investors and later to public (also small investors)? thank you ICNX will be open to all. ICNP will send invitations to ico participants first, and if the maximum amount won't be reached it will be open to the public as well |
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No, it's not $10 It will take some time to get there |
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True, that 25K price range won't last long... Next stop 100K
If we break that 30K wall this weekend, then 100K is very feasible by Dec 28. Edit: Very "Probable" Can't understand why someone would sell now. Seriously, not trying to shill (I am not selling before we hit $8-10) |
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[]cryptohustla 2 points 8 hours ago
For daytraders and speculators Poloniex is needed. In holders perspective Kraken is enough.
[]icojaka 1 point 20 minutes ago
AMA ANSWER: It is up to specific exchanges to decide when they will list ICN.
So now this is the official answer of the dev team ? Disappointing ... So there is no NDA ... nothing ... all was actually transparent and is just the nasty exchanges that added potcoin immediately, but have some grouch with the valuable ICN token. Sure guys ... keep fucking us ... you already have the money, nothing we can do ... right ?
Let me tell you what YOU can do. You can SELL and buy yourself a massive dildo and then FUCK YOURSELF WITH IT. Because you're a fucking pain in the ass with your constant whining. I am dying hahahaha Since this dumbass perticag is on my ignore list, I don't have the honor reading his whining BS, unless someone else replies. So just wanted to make sure that this little girl cry baby perticag is on the same page: You can SELL and buy yourself a massive dildo and then FUCK YOURSELF WITH IT. Or ask one of your "daytraders investors friends" to help you with it |
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