icojaka
Member
 Offline
Activity: 78
Merit: 10
|
 |
December 11, 2016, 10:12:36 AM |
|
Can a single Fund Manager start multiple funds on OFM?
This is the norm on ZuluTrade & eTORO where each Fund Manager can have a High-Risk fund & a Low-Risk fund, etc...
We have not yet finalized the details, as platform is a 2017 project, but I can already confirm that fund managers will be able to have more than 1 fund. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Bitcoin addresses contain a checksum, so it is very unlikely that mistyping an address will cause you to lose money.
|
|
|
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
|
|
|
|
|
icojaka
Member
Offline
Activity: 78
Merit: 10
|
|
December 11, 2016, 10:18:22 AM |
|
the answers are clear in the FAQ and WhitePaper So what does the FAQ and whitepaper say is the answer to my scenario I outlined to Jani below? I never found a clear answer there. "Finally, at some time in 1Q 2017 you will make your first dividend payment to the original ICO participants who funded the ICNP original $4.6M. Say for example you invested $500K of ICNP money in the ICO of a new coin. In the week after launch, that coin doubles in price so your $500K investment is now worth $1M, giving an ICNP profit of $500K total. 20% of that $500K or $100K is the amount of profit to be distributed among the original ICO participants.
WHERE DO YOU GET THIS $100K TO DISTRIBUTE AS ETH DIVIDENDS?
Specifically, do you sell 10% of your holdings in the new coin at the end of the first week and hold on to the other 90%? Or do you get the money for dividend distribution from some other source? And if this, WHAT other source?"Mal, this answer is simple, I apologize if it was not addressed before. But first, let me again say that the fees for ICNX or ICNP have not yet been confirmed, so this is just hypothetical ... If ICNP would have 20/2 fee structure, then 20% of all REALISED PROFITS would go from ICNP to ICONOMI as fees. But "realised profits" means that ICNP has to CLOSE its position in that "new coin" first. Only if ICNP liquidates whole $1M investment, then $100k (20% of 500k profit) go as fees to ICONOMI. And this can later be distributed as dividends to ICN token holders. And since vast majority of ICNP's investments will be done in digital currency, so will be later liquidations... For example ICNP recently invested 5000 ETH in Golem, and I expect when this position will close, ICNP will do sell it for ETH... Clear? best, Jaka Since dividends won't be paid regularly and not before q1-q2 2017, I guess the real deal are the funds, not ICN in itself. I've the feeling a lot will dump ICN in order to enter into the funds. Also why Golem? BOINC does the same and are already well established. Beside Golem are not going to deliver before 2018 (if they ever deliver...) so liquidation/return will not take place in a near future... Why GOLEM? Doing due diligence we felt that it is a very solid project, with very high chance of success. Also, the team behind ticked all the right boxes, and have not only said the right things, but also their actions were on the level. And them filling the ICO in an hour proves that whole community felt the same. Anyway - you can read more about GOLEM case, as a colleague just analysed their ICO from psychology standpoint: https://medium.com/iconominet/the-psychology-behind-ico-funding-81787ecd9b42 ... But at the same time we understood, that this will be a long term project (even their roadmap clearly say so) with not so rapid ROI. That was the reason of a fairly limited investment into their ICO (5000 ETH), which is ~ 1 % of ICNP funds. |
|
|
|
|
|
aidia
|
|
December 11, 2016, 10:18:59 AM |
|
really like their posts about this stuff. I'm still not too happy with the golem investment, but I can clearly see where ICN is coming from now Golem is a legit project, but also a long term investment. Only reason I didn't enter their ICO was the fact that they didn't have any solution ready for FIAT -> GOLEM at a time. Fiat deposits to their network are needed for them to succeed in their targeted markets. Crypto is still a niche and will stay as long when all the hassle with exchanges, wallets and such is too complicated for businesses who could use their network. Interesting tho, Cashila has FIAT gateways in place so maybe Golem could utilize them.  |
|
|
|
|
|
Daparski
|
|
December 11, 2016, 10:19:05 AM
Last edit: December 11, 2016, 10:31:25 AM by Daparski |
|
I find these ICO blog series useless for investors. They're mainly addressing people thinking to start their own ICOs. I hope future ICONOMI blogs benefit investors in a more direct way...  No, they are not. Iconomi investors are indirectly investing in ICOs through ICNP. The articles show what are the guidelines and standards of Iconomi for investing in ICOs. After all, we have a hedge fund with 4.5M usd. And also do not forget that investing in ICOs is always associated with some risk. So ICNP team has to make detailed due diligence before investing. But now imagine that ICNP's mentoring team is involved in the ICO into which the fund also invests. This gives ICONOMI a big advantage, as it gets to know the ICO team really personally and also advise on the key decisions. All in all that makes it a better and safer investment. + like Daparski said, community needs to set new rules and standards for ICOs. The whole ICO world will benefit from those. Can you elaborate on that one, I am not sure I understood what you mean But now imagine that ICNP's mentoring team is involved in the ICO into which the fund also invests.
This gives ICONOMI a big advantage, as it gets to know the ICO team really personally and also advise on the key decisions. If Iconomi is to invest into a specific ICO, wouldn't that mean that the team will get to know the ICO members as part of the due diligence? |
|
|
|
|
|
Daparski
|
|
December 11, 2016, 10:28:24 AM |
|
really like their posts about this stuff. I'm still not too happy with the golem investment, but I can clearly see where ICN is coming from now Golem is a legit project, but also a long term investment. Only reason I didn't enter their ICO was the fact that they didn't have any solution ready for FIAT -> GOLEM at a time. Fiat deposits to their network are needed for them to succeed in their targeted markets. Crypto is still a niche and will stay as long when all the hassle with exchanges, wallets and such is too complicated for businesses who could use their network. Interesting tho, Cashila has FIAT gateways in place so maybe Golem could utilize them. Crypto is still a niche and will stay as long when all the hassle with exchanges, wallets and such is too complicated for businesses who could use their network.
Exactly! most crypto traders live in their own world and forget that all money invested in ALL cryptos so far is just a small tiny fraction of what is out there. |
|
|
|
|
icojaka
Member
Offline
Activity: 78
Merit: 10
|
|
December 11, 2016, 10:31:02 AM |
|
Jaka, I thank you for this answer, it helps me understand a lot.
You have been talking about weekly dividends so I thought you were going to evaluate profit for each ICNP coin position on a week-by-week basis and distribute dividends accordingly. Instead, ICNP may go for months or even years before liquidating its position in a given coin, calculating the profit ONE TIME based on that close-out sale, and THEN distributing profit dividends on the position. So there could be many weeks where no ICNP dividend is distributed because no closures of ICNP coin positions occur during that week. And so in weeks where there are no ICNP position closures, any profits / dividends would come only from ICNX or other fees. Correct?
If this is correct, it is a big deal.
Unrealized profits can grow larger and larger on ICNP investments until those investments are finally cashed out and distributed as dividends, pushing the "fundamentals" price of ICN up week after week as investment profits accumulate before cashout and distribution.
Deferred ICNP dividends should immediately show up as a rise in ICN price. Roughly speaking, future increases in ICN price should always be at least 20% of ICNP pre-cashout profits - more, maybe much more, if speculative frenzy kicks in. As the ICNP Fund grows in size, ICN price could take off like a rocket.
HODL !
Mal, I don't quite understand that part you wrote: Unrealized profits can grow larger and larger on ICNP investments until those investments are finally cashed out and distributed as dividends As far as I understand there is only realized profits. If you don't sell your holdings, you don't have profits. How can unrealized profits go larger on ICNP investments? Do you mean speculations? Daparski, I think he meant that in some cases (most?) value of ICN token would go up even before ICNP realised a profit with closing its investments. We have said, that we will announce into which ICO the ICNP will invest (after ICO closes, not before to prevent speculations). So lets illustrate with example of ICO XYZ, into which ICNP invests $500k. Everyone knows what was the ICO price per token. 3 months later XYZ's tokens are worth 200%, and project seems solid and keeps on growing, so ICNP does not yet close the investment ... Since everyone knows how much ICNP invested into XYZ, they also can calculate the unrealized value of that investment (~doubled)... Hence this unrealized profit could be speculatively accounted into the price of ICN token (or at least some part of "20% fee"*** on profits)... I hope my illustration was clear to understand. From my experience this is how things work in the stock market world... Please note that I am NOT claming that this will happen  as ICO world is clearly a lot different than old economy... *** please note that fees are not yet set, so 20% is just an illustration Jaka |
|
|
|
|
|
pind919
|
|
December 11, 2016, 10:33:56 AM |
|
Can you guys from ICONOMI team clear some things
So as a investor (long term) not pump and dump the ICNP is suited for those kind of investors like 20-50k ICNS
ICNX is more for companies and more BTC/ETH like 50-100K investments
So for regular traders with 1000 - 2000 ICNs there is like some chance with dividends?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Daparski
|
|
December 11, 2016, 10:41:35 AM |
|
Jaka, I thank you for this answer, it helps me understand a lot.
You have been talking about weekly dividends so I thought you were going to evaluate profit for each ICNP coin position on a week-by-week basis and distribute dividends accordingly. Instead, ICNP may go for months or even years before liquidating its position in a given coin, calculating the profit ONE TIME based on that close-out sale, and THEN distributing profit dividends on the position. So there could be many weeks where no ICNP dividend is distributed because no closures of ICNP coin positions occur during that week. And so in weeks where there are no ICNP position closures, any profits / dividends would come only from ICNX or other fees. Correct?
If this is correct, it is a big deal.
Unrealized profits can grow larger and larger on ICNP investments until those investments are finally cashed out and distributed as dividends, pushing the "fundamentals" price of ICN up week after week as investment profits accumulate before cashout and distribution.
Deferred ICNP dividends should immediately show up as a rise in ICN price. Roughly speaking, future increases in ICN price should always be at least 20% of ICNP pre-cashout profits - more, maybe much more, if speculative frenzy kicks in. As the ICNP Fund grows in size, ICN price could take off like a rocket.
HODL !
Mal, I don't quite understand that part you wrote: Unrealized profits can grow larger and larger on ICNP investments until those investments are finally cashed out and distributed as dividends As far as I understand there is only realized profits. If you don't sell your holdings, you don't have profits. How can unrealized profits go larger on ICNP investments? Do you mean speculations? Daparski, I think he meant that in some cases (most?) value of ICN token would go up even before ICNP realized a profit with closing its investments. We have said, that we will announce into which ICO the ICNP will invest (after ICO closes, not before to prevent speculations). So lets illustrate with example of ICO XYZ, into which ICNP invests $500k. Everyone knows what was the ICO price per token. 3 months later XYZ's tokens are worth 200%, and project seems solid and keeps on growing, so ICNP does not yet close the investment ... Since everyone knows how much ICNP invested into XYZ, they also can calculate the unrealized value of that investment (~doubled)... Hence this unrealized profit could be speculatively accounted into the price of ICN token (or at least some part of "20% fee"*** on profits)... I hope my illustration was clear to understand. From my experience this is how things work in the stock market world... Please note that I am NOT claming that this will happen as ICO world is clearly a lot different than old economy... *** please note that fees are not yet set, so 20% is just an illustration Jaka yepp, that makes sense. Good old Mal. |
|
|
|
|
andraxyz
Member
Offline
Activity: 89
Merit: 10
|
|
December 11, 2016, 10:47:58 AM |
|
I find these ICO blog series useless for investors. They're mainly addressing people thinking to start their own ICOs. I hope future ICONOMI blogs benefit investors in a more direct way... Don't you freaking see that ICONOMI success is dependent on the rise and implementation of the blockchain technology in the real world? What they are doing is EXACTLY what they should be doing. USe your head and look at the big picture... |
|
|
|
|
MalReynolds
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 938
Merit: 1000
|
|
December 11, 2016, 11:23:09 AM |
|
...in some cases (most?) value of ICN token would go up even before ICNP realized a profit with closing its investments.
We have said, that we will announce into which ICO the ICNP will invest (after ICO closes, not before to prevent speculations).
So lets illustrate with example of ICO XYZ, into which ICNP invests $500k.
Everyone knows what was the ICO price per token.
3 months later XYZ's tokens are worth 200%, and project seems solid and keeps on growing, so ICNP does not yet close the investment ...
Since everyone knows how much ICNP invested into XYZ, they also can calculate the unrealized value of that investment (~doubled)...
Hence this unrealized profit could be speculatively accounted into the price of ICN token (or at least some part of "20% fee"*** on profits)...
*** please note that fees are not yet set, so 20% is just an illustration
Jaka
This ^^^. This is a big deal I did not realize before about ICONOMI, because I mistakenly thought profit cashouts and dividend distributions for ICNP were going to occur like clockwork every week. ICONOMI is going to be even more awesome than I first thought. |
|
|
|
|
icojaka
Member
Offline
Activity: 78
Merit: 10
|
|
December 11, 2016, 11:24:52 AM |
|
Can you guys from ICONOMI team clear some things
So as a investor (long term) not pump and dump the ICNP is suited for those kind of investors like 20-50k ICNS
ICNX is more for companies and more BTC/ETH like 50-100K investments
So for regular traders with 1000 - 2000 ICNs there is like some chance with dividends?
I would not classify them like that. We have clearly stated that ICNX (ICONOMI.index) fund is a passive fund, that will grow with growth of the "blockchain" concept/world/economy. Due to its special 15% max cap of any single currency, its goal is a realistic representation of crypto markets while keeping risk as diversified as possible. At the same time we have introduced ICONOMI.performance (ICNP) as a high-risk, high-gain vehicle. So where to invest is not dependent on your capital, but more on your personal investment strategy, including level of acceptable risk... |
|
|
|
|
Coca-Cola
Member
Offline
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
|
|
December 11, 2016, 11:41:10 AM |
|
All hell will break loose once we break that 30K sell wall  aye, once that 30k sell wall pops or is pulled, then shit is going to get real from a price perspective. Whoever placed that 30K sell wall to pick cheap ICN is in for a bitter surprise when that wall gets eaten while that person is asleep |
|
|
|
|
|
rgornik
|
|
December 11, 2016, 12:14:38 PM |
|
All hell will break loose once we break that 30K sell wall aye, once that 30k sell wall pops or is pulled, then shit is going to get real from a price perspective. Whoever placed that 30K sell wall to pick cheap ICN is in for a bitter surprise when that wall gets eaten while that person is asleep If he/she is so stupid to go to sleep whit it then I wouldnt call it a surprise. He would have it coming |
|
|
|
|
Xtrata
|
|
December 11, 2016, 12:18:07 PM |
|
All hell will break loose once we break that 30K sell wall aye, once that 30k sell wall pops or is pulled, then shit is going to get real from a price perspective. Whoever placed that 30K sell wall to pick cheap ICN is in for a bitter surprise when that wall gets eaten while that person is asleep That person most likely know what he is doing, could even be the same person who put up the buyorders, it is kinda unlikely that someone would go and buy ICN for 60 btc in 1 go. But anything is possible for sure. |
|
|
|
|
|
Daparski
|
|
December 11, 2016, 12:18:36 PM |
|
...in some cases (most?) value of ICN token would go up even before ICNP realized a profit with closing its investments.
We have said, that we will announce into which ICO the ICNP will invest (after ICO closes, not before to prevent speculations).
So lets illustrate with example of ICO XYZ, into which ICNP invests $500k.
Everyone knows what was the ICO price per token.
3 months later XYZ's tokens are worth 200%, and project seems solid and keeps on growing, so ICNP does not yet close the investment ...
Since everyone knows how much ICNP invested into XYZ, they also can calculate the unrealized value of that investment (~doubled)...
Hence this unrealized profit could be speculatively accounted into the price of ICN token (or at least some part of "20% fee"*** on profits)...
*** please note that fees are not yet set, so 20% is just an illustration
Jaka
This ^^^. This is a big deal I did not realize before about ICONOMI, because I mistakenly thought profit cashouts and dividend distributions for ICNP were going to occur like clockwork every week. ICONOMI is going to be even more awesome than I first thought. strange, since Jani answered your post on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/ICONOMI/comments/5bfdtw/icnp_questions/But you are right, we didn't take under consideration in previous discussions the unrealized profit made "so far". It should, and probably will have affect on ICN price before profit realization by Iconomi team |
|
|
|
|
|
rgornik
|
|
December 11, 2016, 01:01:05 PM |
|
Hey Jani, I am curious about your opinion on lower Timing the ICO is very important, and it’s more art than science. Launching an ICO in the present climate can be challenging: bitcoin is riding high, and many people are buying and holding; ethereum has had its problems over the last few months and as a result investor sentiment (not technology sentiment) is low. Great timing requires you to be very sensitive to external sentiment or to work with someone who is. Do you maybe (as a ICONOMI or individual) think that there is also a problem with low liquidity due to most of the funds stuck in some sort of investments (like ICOs or something else) and there is not enough "free cash" that is searching for new projects? Because for example Wings ICO took off very promising but after first day hype it did not manage to get a lot of funds on the daily basis. So its eather not enough "free floating money" there or just reasons mentioned above in the quote? Opinion whether its a good project or not is put outside in my question. |
|
|
|
|
Daparski
|
|
December 11, 2016, 01:07:17 PM |
|
Looks like those buy pressure steroids on kraken are starting to influence
|
|
|
|
|
|
yespeace
|
|
December 11, 2016, 01:11:47 PM |
|
the answers are clear in the FAQ and WhitePaper So what does the FAQ and whitepaper say is the answer to my scenario I outlined to Jani below? I never found a clear answer there. "Finally, at some time in 1Q 2017 you will make your first dividend payment to the original ICO participants who funded the ICNP original $4.6M. Say for example you invested $500K of ICNP money in the ICO of a new coin. In the week after launch, that coin doubles in price so your $500K investment is now worth $1M, giving an ICNP profit of $500K total. 20% of that $500K or $100K is the amount of profit to be distributed among the original ICO participants.
WHERE DO YOU GET THIS $100K TO DISTRIBUTE AS ETH DIVIDENDS?
Specifically, do you sell 10% of your holdings in the new coin at the end of the first week and hold on to the other 90%? Or do you get the money for dividend distribution from some other source? And if this, WHAT other source?"Mal, this answer is simple, I apologize if it was not addressed before. But first, let me again say that the fees for ICNX or ICNP have not yet been confirmed, so this is just hypothetical ... If ICNP would have 20/2 fee structure, then 20% of all REALISED PROFITS would go from ICNP to ICONOMI as fees. But "realised profits" means that ICNP has to CLOSE its position in that "new coin" first. Only if ICNP liquidates whole $1M investment, then $100k (20% of 500k profit) go as fees to ICONOMI. And this can later be distributed as dividends to ICN token holders. And since vast majority of ICNP's investments will be done in digital currency, so will be later liquidations... For example ICNP recently invested 5000 ETH in Golem, and I expect when this position will close, ICNP will do sell it for ETH... Clear? best, Jaka Jaka, I thank you for this answer, it helps me understand a lot. You have been talking about weekly dividends so I thought you were going to evaluate profit for each ICNP coin position on a week-by-week basis and distribute dividends accordingly. Instead, ICNP may go for months or even years before liquidating its position in a given coin, calculating the profit ONE TIME based on that close-out sale, and THEN distributing profit dividends on the position. So there could be many weeks where no ICNP dividend is distributed because no closures of ICNP coin positions occur during that week. And so in weeks where there are no ICNP position closures, any profits / dividends would come only from ICNX or other fees. Correct? If this is correct, it is a big deal. Unrealized profits can grow larger and larger on ICNP investments until those investments are finally cashed out and distributed as dividends, pushing the "fundamentals" price of ICN up week after week as investment profits accumulate before cashout and distribution.
Deferred ICNP dividends should immediately show up as a rise in ICN price. Roughly speaking, future increases in ICN price should always be at least 20% of ICNP pre-cashout profits - more, maybe much more, if speculative frenzy kicks in. As the ICNP Fund grows in size, ICN price could take off like a rocket.
HODL !Mal, that is correct. There is also a reason why this is the only way. If we would do it as you (mis)understood before, then in a case of ICNP dropping in value (imagine that an ICO into which ICNP had invested, would announce that they have been hacked and all assets stolen) we would have to ask shareholders to "return" parts of already paid dividends to cover loss... Which is of course impossible. Finnaly few pages of very useful comments ok, if I properly understand this, we can at all time know how much that fund is worth (assuming that the current value of investments will be known), so the price of ICN's will probabbly be designed from the value and the potential value of these investments - expected dividends? |
|
|
|
|
|
Xtrata
|
|
December 11, 2016, 01:12:41 PM |
|
Looks like those buy pressure steroids on kraken are starting to influance
Looking good indeed.  |
|
|
|
|
|
Daparski
|
|
December 11, 2016, 01:15:06 PM |
|
Hey Jani, I am curious about your opinion on lower Timing the ICO is very important, and it’s more art than science. Launching an ICO in the present climate can be challenging: bitcoin is riding high, and many people are buying and holding; ethereum has had its problems over the last few months and as a result investor sentiment (not technology sentiment) is low. Great timing requires you to be very sensitive to external sentiment or to work with someone who is. Do you maybe (as a ICONOMI or individual) think that there is also a problem with low liquidity due to most of the funds stuck in some sort of investments (like ICOs or something else) and there is not enough "free cash" that is searching for new projects? Because for example Wings ICO took off very promising but after first day hype it did not manage to get a lot of funds on the daily basis. So its eather not enough "free floating money" there or just reasons mentioned above in the quote? Opinion whether its a good project or not is put outside in my question. What do you mean low liquidity? You know that there is ~4.5M usd in Iconomi.PERFORMACE fund, and that is before the second round, which will take place sometimes in 2017? I don't see any liquidity problem in the fund since it will take time until those 4.5M+ usd are invested. I am sure that by the time Iconomi will invest the last available funds, the first investments will be at least partially sold and the profits will be available for future investments. This is basic fund management. |
|
|
|
|
|
