Note though, that he is not creating new cryptography, he is using well established, true and tested existing cryptography.
Mathematicians and cryptographers have often produced new crypto that has later been proven faulty.
Oh absolutely, I'm not suggesting he invent new cryptography. I'm suggesting he provide cryptographically sound mathematical models to show how these "masternodes" are impervious to collusion, Sybil attacks, or an attacker DDoSing the DarkCoin P2P port on enough of them so that they control a sufficient number. This is the sort of thing anyone competent would do BEFORE they start coding. So, keeping it in line with topic: Darkcoin Cons: - lack of peer-reviewed cryptography - lack of understanding of threat models - developer is clearly incompetent (see failed RCwhatever releases causing forks) - whitepaper contains no mathematical proof of the resilience of the anonymity set to attacks - whitepaper contains a mathematical formula for the block reward curve that is completely unrelated to the actual block reward curve (see Darkcoins in Circulation - First 128 days, and Darkcoin Block Reward Emission Curve - First 128 Days), implying either a completely incompetent developer, or a developer that actively and aggressively cheats 1) Kristov Atlas is reviewing the code and design right now. 2) Wrong - this has been discussed in depth for over 6 months, why do you think its 2500 pages. People like anonymint have given the thumbs up even over Monero. 3) Software development to this scale and complexity is not a fool proof science, id like to see you try. At least he is full time and trying until he and the team succeeds. 4) & 5) Look here for things like collusion probability https://darkcointalk.org/threads/development-updates-july-15th.1788/https://darkcointalk.org/threads/development-update-july-30th.1924/fernando on the darkcointalk.org forums created a chart outlining the probability of unmasking a Darksend by way of Masternode collusion at depths of both 2 and 8 Masternode hops: 2 hops: http://goo.gl/g1dQ3C8 hops: http://goo.gl/TcWoF0 |
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And this is just another few reasons why Darkcoin coin will succeed:- Darksend+ technology which has over 6 months of development and been written from the ground up to evolve previous solutions, this is how you get better, you try, and try again until you succeed. Success very rarely happens on the first go
- Darksend+ huge advantage that coins are anonymized & denominated through 8 masternodes and sent back to the user. The user can then send straight to the recipient anonmyously. This removes any responsibility/liabilities that MN owners could have. Competitor coins all forward coins through their systems which is flawed.
- Professional solution explanations with diagrams to clearly how the proposed solutions will work
- Full transparency to the testing environment where everyone is involved, nothing is hidden
- Open communication about what bugs they are tackling, this shows confidence in the solution
- World class team, leading innovation which all coins just look toward and copy in some way shape or form
- Taken seriously enough to have Kristov Atlas onboard to help review and improve the technology
- Over 830 masternodes which their potential has not even begun to be realized, and already solves many economic pitfalls apparent in the BitCoin node design. 830 Masternodes is likely more than any competitor has for wallets open at a single point in time.
- IP obfuscation solution has been announced and the solution will be open sourced after Kristov review is the last piece of the puzzle.
Now compare this to some of the competitors who:- 4-6 weeks old and have not had any REAL discussions on how the technology actually applies to design & attack weaknesses. When questioned, replies like "we have thought and tested through these scenarios"....so suddenly you are world leading security experts and can test against all known attack vectors.
- Release whitepapers with a box with a single word in it which supposed to encompass the entire solution, my 3 year old can do this
- Have to tell their users to "refrain" from using the solution when they release it, then why release it?
- When questioned about their solution, delete the posts in their thread and in the media deliver one line statements like "the data is encoded to hide the sender"...but how..?
- Cannot even get anonymity working so lets start coding an entire openmarket to give more hype....If you dont think anonymity is a serious and complex enough solution, you obviously have no idea.
- Can only make videos as justification to prove it works.
- Have no background to the development team as they are 100% anonymous. What if they are just great video editors and graphic designers.
- Both of the main competitors use Proof of Stake and have given only 1 week of PoW....this is taking centralization to a new level.
- Dev's have admitted to not having great anonymity, and are still trying to think of solutions for bad actors such as centralized black listing which was floored in the XC rev 1.0 design and hence thrown out. Additionally now possibly copying Darkcoin by requiring to have "small investments" to become a node
- Have made no announcements or plans to open source.
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This is very immature thinking and easily bypassed.
Open Wallet1, send in 1 coin. Become a bad actor.
Open new wallet2 and send 1 coin from wallet 1--> wallet 2. Shutdown Wallet 1
Become bad actor.
Repeat that over and over and you do the math on how this can be scaled out to attack the network and as you steal more coins can exponentially grow the attack footprint.
How much does it cost to own a bad IP and be a spy on tor? Not much, hence why Tor has already been compromised: http://www.theverge.com/2014/7/30/5951479/tor-says-unknown-attackers-compromised-hidden-servicesYet you will probably still bitorrent porn tonight. So Cloak's design is based on p2p bittorent porn downloads?? I dont get the correlation. One is porn, the other is fiat transactions (real money) that can be easily targeted for stealing and or unmasking. Consequences are vastly different. One person lightens his load, the other loses money or ends up in jail. |
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This is very immature thinking and easily bypassed.
Open Wallet1, send in 1 coin. Become a bad actor.
Open new wallet2 and send 1 coin from wallet 1--> wallet 2. Shutdown Wallet 1
Become bad actor.
Repeat that over and over and you do the math on how this can be scaled out to attack the network and as you steal more coins can exponentially grow the attack footprint.
How much does it cost to own a bad IP and be a spy on tor? Not much, hence why Tor has already been compromised: http://www.theverge.com/2014/7/30/5951479/tor-says-unknown-attackers-compromised-hidden-services |
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Also whats to stop a bad actor from creating as many wallets/nodes as he/she wishes and capturing the data / stealing incoming transactions. This was done with XC rev 1.0 and the same applies to Cloak's design.
A system we have put in place to require a small investment to be a node thus stopping unlimited bad nodes by investment deterrence. small investment...isnt that the same as masternodes for DRK??? additionally, how will you blacklist - XC had its dynamic learning trust system which went down the drain....any black listing system is easily flawed and centralized. Obviously black listing will not be enough. No you will not have to have 1000 CLOAK like a masternode. But if you want 1000 nodes on the network spying it will cost you. You have not thought this through. Coin quantity is not the factor as it moves dynamically with price...1000 drk coin cost $10 back in the day. If cloak even had 10 coins to become a node, in 5 years that price might be unobtainable for most....get my point??? so essentially it is the SAME as DRK masternodes. You must be a day trader. Our code is not static and there is no node price setting. This is a network How so - do you propose to dynamically change the number of coins required to become a node based on the market price??? Edit: you say small investment, but how do you know what that same investment is worth in 6 months time to become a node? All I mean is that an empty wallet has been programmed to not be allowed to be a node. You can do the math on percentages, I will not take the time for you. This is very immature thinking and easily bypassed. Open Wallet1, send in 1 coin. Become a bad actor. Open new wallet2 and send 1 coin from wallet 1--> wallet 2. Shutdown Wallet 1 Become bad actor. Repeat that over and over and you do the math on how this can be scaled out to attack the network and as you steal more coins can exponentially grow the attack footprint. |
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Thank you for the technical post. Hope this answers some.
Thanks for your productive response. I actually own both DRK and CLOAK, so want to understand the systems better. Obfuscation. You have to think about PoSA like tor.
1. We can black list malicious nodes and rely on the fact that there will be so many nodes on the network (unlike centralized masternodes) that the majority will not be spy nodes and to find any relevant data will be next to impossible. Nothing is 100% approaching limits is the best way to handle things.
You can only black list nodes if you can detect that they are doing something bad. There is no way to detect which nodes are the malicious nodes that are spying because other than recording transactions, they perform their duties perfectly and are upstanding citizens according to the protocol. However, they secretly record the links between transactions and publish them publicly elsewhere (example, their own de-anonomised block explorer). 2. Same question as 1
Indeed. 3. 2 levels out of a random selection. powers of two magnify probabilities of not being interfered with exponentially.
The problem is that 2^1 is only 2. To leverage the power of two, you need to add more layers of anonymity. For example, 8 or 10 steps, so you get 2^10 = 1024. However, the problem is that would slow down transactions too much. 4. Again the same questions
No. It's quite different. My 4th question is about someone stealing funds, not anonymity. Blacklisting is only a first defense and I have no idea if it is even going to be implemented, just a thought and it is a weak one. About layers of anon.. you forget that you have as many nodes as you have on the network to randomly be assigned to. We have already been thinking about ways of prevent nodes from knowing when a posa tx is incoming. Packet sniffing is an issue we are combating. I hope you do seriously think about these things because there are a few other large security risks I can see from this design. So to all those in this thread who keep humming "we have working anonymity".....from my perspective, its not even close. |
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Also whats to stop a bad actor from creating as many wallets/nodes as he/she wishes and capturing the data / stealing incoming transactions. This was done with XC rev 1.0 and the same applies to Cloak's design.
A system we have put in place to require a small investment to be a node thus stopping unlimited bad nodes by investment deterrence. small investment...isnt that the same as masternodes for DRK??? additionally, how will you blacklist - XC had its dynamic learning trust system which went down the drain....any black listing system is easily flawed and centralized. Obviously black listing will not be enough. No you will not have to have 1000 CLOAK like a masternode. But if you want 1000 nodes on the network spying it will cost you. You have not thought this through. Coin quantity is not the factor as it moves dynamically with price...1000 drk coin cost $10 back in the day. If cloak even had 10 coins to become a node, in 5 years that price might be unobtainable for most....get my point??? so essentially it is the SAME as DRK masternodes. You must be a day trader. Our code is not static and there is no node price setting. This is a network How so - do you propose to dynamically change the number of coins required to become a node based on the market price??? Edit: you say small investment, but how do you know what that same investment is worth in 6 months time to become a node? |
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Also whats to stop a bad actor from creating as many wallets/nodes as he/she wishes and capturing the data / stealing incoming transactions. This was done with XC rev 1.0 and the same applies to Cloak's design.
A system we have put in place to require a small investment to be a node thus stopping unlimited bad nodes by investment deterrence. small investment...isnt that the same as masternodes for DRK??? additionally, how will you blacklist - XC had its dynamic learning trust system which went down the drain....any black listing system is easily flawed and centralized. Obviously black listing will not be enough. No you will not have to have 1000 CLOAK like a masternode. But if you want 1000 nodes on the network spying it will cost you. You have not thought this through. Coin quantity is not the factor as it moves dynamically with price...1000 drk coin cost $10 back in the day. If cloak even had 10 coins to become a node, in 5 years that price might be unobtainable for most....get my point??? so essentially it is the SAME as DRK masternodes. |
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Also whats to stop a bad actor from creating as many wallets/nodes as he/she wishes and capturing the data / stealing incoming transactions. This was done with XC rev 1.0 and the same applies to Cloak's design.
A system we have put in place to require a small investment to be a node thus stopping unlimited bad nodes by investment deterrence. small investment...isnt that the same as masternodes for DRK??? additionally, how will you blacklist - XC had its dynamic learning trust system which went down the drain....any black listing system is easily flawed and centralized. |
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Just reviewing the cloak coin anonymity claims. This is interesting quote from the Whitepaper: "Again in the Phase 2 pass the originator and recipient are not recorded, instead the transaction occurs between the Phase 1 and Phase 2 nodes."
My problem with this is:
1) the transaction are broadcast and, thus, propagated to all nodes. A malicious node could simply record all these transactions and easily publish the records linking the transactions.
2) the elected node could itself be a spy and publish records of these transactions for all transactions it pretends to anonymise.
Further, there are a few other serious problems:
3) there are only two levels of mixing, which is hardly enough to provide any real guarantees
4) no mechanism is described that would prevent an anonymising node from stealing outputs
Hopefully my concerns and questions can help put the discussion back on to a productive track.
Thanks.
shhh no real discussions are allowed in here - you will upset the pump. Also whats to stop a bad actor from creating as many wallets/nodes as he/she wishes and capturing the data / stealing incoming transactions. This was done with XC rev 1.0 and the same applies to Cloak's design. |
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Pump is winding down now, time to pack up and head home soon.
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anyone with technical details already participated in the PoSA beta, and frankly, them seeing the PoSA actually working the way it's supposed to is what has driven up the price in the last few days.
any technical details beyond the whitepaper are trade secrets, and should never be revealed until Cloak is the market leader by a fair margin.
no one will ever trust or use something that hasnt been audited and explained in detail you moron, especially with money and anonymity. Good luck becoming the market leader with your "trade secrets"  AHAHAHAHA, so the BILLIONS of dollars in BTC have all been bought by people who know every technical detail of BTC? how about the multi-trillion dollar US economy, do you need to understand all the different facets of the economy to be able to purchase a snickers bar? yes. trade secrets. are you fucking hourly? how dumb do you have to be to think that it would be in the best interest of a company to let their competitors all steal their hard work? very high brow stuff i know, can you keep up? You really are stupid. Bitcoin has been audited as a trustless solution by many of the worlds best cryptographers....have you not read satoshi's whitepaper...its OPEN SOURCED you muppet. Is Cloak really trustless, is it open sourced, does it have any backdoors / exploits, can it be traced.......hold on, dont worry, they are our trade secrets...you can "Trust us" Its money and anonymity you imbecile...not a fucking snickers bar, and they still need to list the ingredients they use to make the snickers bar... now go back to kindergarten where you belong |
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anyone with technical details already participated in the PoSA beta, and frankly, them seeing the PoSA actually working the way it's supposed to is what has driven up the price in the last few days.
any technical details beyond the whitepaper are trade secrets, and should never be revealed until Cloak is the market leader by a fair margin.
no one will ever trust or use something that hasnt been audited and explained in detail you moron, especially with money and anonymity. Good luck becoming the market leader with your "trade secrets" |
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And this is just another reason why this coin will succeed:- Darksend+ technology which has over 6 months of development and been written from the ground up to evolve previous solutions, this is how you get better, you try, and try again until you succeed. Success very rarely happens on the first go
- Professional solution explanations with diagrams to clearly how the proposed solutions will work
- Full transparency to the testing environment where everyone is involved, nothing is hidden
- Open communication about what bugs they are tackling, this shows confidence in the solution
- World class team, leading innovation which all coins just look toward and copy in some way shape or form
- Taken seriously enough to have Kristov Atlas onboard to help review and improve the technology
- Over 830 masternodes which their potential has not even begun to be realized, and already solves many economic pitfalls apparent in the BitCoin node design
- IP obfuscation and open source after Kristov review is the last piece of the puzzle.
Now compare this to some of our competitors who:- Can only make videos as justification to prove it works.
- Have not had any REAL discussions on how the technology actually applies to design & attack weaknesses. When questioned, replies like "we have thought and tested through these scenarios"....so suddenly you are world leading security experts and can test against all known attack vectors.
- Release whitepapers with a box with a single word in it which supposed to encompass the entire solution, my 3 year old can do this
- Have to tell their users to "refrain" from using the solution when they release it, then why release it?
- When questioned about their solution, delete the posts in their thread and in the media deliver one line statements like "the data is encoded to hide the sender"...but how..?
- Cannot even get anonymity working so lets start coding an entire openmarket to give more hype....If you dont think anonymity is a serious and complex enough solution, you obviously have no idea.
- Have no background to the development team as they are 100% anonymous. What if they are just great video editors and graphic designers.
- Both of the main competitors use Proof of Stake and have given only 1 week of PoW....this is taking centralization to a new level.
I could go on...but if you cannot understand what a joke the competitors are, you should sell your house and invest in WankCoin, im hearing its due for a pump.
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And this is just another reason why this coin will succeed:- Darksend+ technology which has over 6 months of development and been written from the ground up to evolve previous solutions, this is how you get better, you try, and try again until you succeed. Success very rarely happens on the first go
- Professional solution explanations with diagrams to clearly how the proposed solutions will work
- Full transparency to the testing environment where everyone is involved, nothing is hidden
- Open communication about what bugs they are tackling, this shows confidence in the solution
- World class team, leading innovation which all coins just look toward and copy in some way shape or form
- Taken seriously enough to have Kristov Atlas onboard to help review and improve the technology
- Over 830 masternodes which their potential has not even begun to be realized, and already solves many economic pitfalls apparent in the BitCoin node design
- IP obfuscation and open source after Kristov review is the last piece of the puzzle.
Now compare this to some of our competitors who:- Can only make videos as justification to prove it works.
- Have not had any REAL discussions on how the technology actually applies to design & attack weaknesses. When questioned, replies like "we have thought and tested through these scenarios"....so suddenly you are world leading security experts and can test against all known attack vectors.
- Release whitepapers with a box with a single word in it which supposed to encompass the entire solution, my 3 year old can do this
- Have to tell their users to "refrain" from using the solution when they release it, then why release it?
- When questioned about their solution, delete the posts in their thread and in the media deliver one line statements like "the data is encoded to hide the sender"...but how..?
- Cannot even get anonymity working so lets start coding an entire openmarket to give more hype....If you dont think anonymity is a serious and complex enough solution, you obviously have no idea.
- Have no background to the development team as they are 100% anonymous. What if they are just great video editors and graphic designers.
- Both of the main competitors use Proof of Stake and have given only 1 week of PoW....this is taking centralization to a new level.
I could go on...but if you cannot understand what a joke the competitors are, you should sell your house and invest in WankCoin, im hearing its due for a pump.
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[BLA BLA BLA BLA ...
and Ignore .....>>> Sorry I thought I was asking a legitimate question. I was a former DRK holder, but sold because of the declining price. I plan on rebuying once some new news comes out, but I do not follow the thread super close so wasn't sure if anon had been achieved or improved. So do your research, its your money, not ours. Heres a head start: https://darkcointalk.org/ |
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Friends,
correct me if I m wrong, but this price dropping looks to me was triggered from the moment when owners of MNs started to earn DRKs.
Maybe most of them are selling immediately upon received payment.
But again if there ware not MNs, more coins would be available for trading - so it make no sense to blame MNs.
No - look at the balance column here - https://drk.mn/masternodes.htmlThe majority I would say 90% of MN holders still have their earnings in their Masternode untouched. They are smart, why would they sell now. |
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I'll leave your thread alone for now mainly mainly because of your post but also because I actually feel sorry for the people that are deep underwater. They're suffering enough as it is. I don't need to pour salt in the wound.
Finally, can you please substitute the word "now" to forever? |
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