An assumption considering they collected quite a bit from all the orders. Sure some got spent on operating costs, but they should have money on hand. But the chips will involve more expense for us to get those assembled into a miner. We already paid out for the hardware. We have defective hardware for those that received it, at this point the burden is on them to give us working miners from someone not chips. That is a retarded compromise that absolves them of any responsibility and its costly for us on top of that. They win we lose huge. We would be paying 50 percent of the original miner cost just to get those turned into boards.....That is a huge loss. Did you take math at the midvale school for the gifted?

Notice how quick they were to grant your request to get you those chips. They know that is an advantage for them and a loss for you. You aren't just taking a "haircut" you are getting cut off at the knees. You essentially are paying close to 9k for 1.2ths if you count what you paid PLUS what you tack on for assembling the chips into a miner.

Personally getting the existing hardware replaced for working reliable and tested hardware (a community vetted vendor like technobit) OR if they bought up and provided us with replacements like S2s would be an acceptable settlement for everything. Depending on what option they are taking at this point. Honestly if they want to get us hardware quick and get this over with the S2 option would be the fastest. If they are assembling based on parts, then the technobit option (since they seem to be the only ones I know of doing this for the community) will take some more time that really is hurting us and them at the same time.

Point is all we want is the THs we paid for or better. We cant settle for broken hardware or compromises any more. It is not acceptable to anyone really. Would you pay for a hot dog and then haggle with the guy when he gives you half a hot dog or just the bun or just the hot dog with no bun? this is no different just on a different scale. We paid X for Y and should receive Y not Z or W. Plain and simple. I am not interested in the logistical hassle of getting chips assembled most people on here I dont think are either (chime in if you feel different). Those chips wont hash in my hands. I am not interested in investing another dime into getting this working. No one should. We paid for a WORKING 1.2Ths per miner period. That is what we should be getting. If AMT is facilitating that now somehow or are soliciting suggestions on how to get that, then I think that is a more than fair situation. But they need to tell us more about the situation before we honestly can sign off. They did solicit our opinions on it.

But getting chips might be good for you....you can blow the extra money on it. Not for me. I already spent more time and money on this than I wanted to. I think ALL of us feel the same way. We just want working hardware. I am willing to offer up solutions to AMT to make that happen (one of which is the S2 option) but its on them to do the proper execution on it.

\Well Frictionless coin, ask yourself what's in it for them if they give us back our cash? Nothing... If they use the cash to invest in a new board, they have a potential gain for themselves.

How do they not have cash? They collected over a million and a half dollars from customers.

The address actually would be near the assembly plant if I had to guess as that is where it left from. Least its my guess.

I could make a webpage that says I shipped a million miners....doesn't make it true. AMT posted on their site and blog that they have shipped a bunch of hardware too. That said they are dealing with a shit ton of similar problems and gross underperformance on their hardware that they now have to compensate users (which is part of the lawsuit against them)....so yea the comparison is pretty easy. How its being handled on the other hand.....thats something else.

Again not sure why you would argue the obvious logic of ordering 2x S2s over cointerra boxes? The numbers don't lie. You getting 1.6Ths....where you could get 2Ths for close to what you paid for and take a much smaller loss and get a better product in the process. Seems to me like it just makes sense.

Hence my last post, getting two Antminer S2's at 2599 each would be 2Ths for us. And they pocket 500 bucks actually (I am correcting myself as its 5599). we paid alot of money for this hardware. They still have to deal with the logistics of getting the money back from the SMD house who fucked up their production. But that's not to put it coldly our problem. Ours is to get what we paid for. BUT if AMT wants to make this right with a minimal loss, going the S2 route for us would be the best. And I imagine buynig them in bulk results in some kind of discounts which mean they can pocket that discounted amount while still giving us the THs we paid for adn then some. We all win under this scenario. I presume 2199 based on the 4 dollar discounts they give for existing customers. Buying in bulk likely they would provide some discount there.

@AMT Hitting up bitmaintech for info might not be a bad idea to get this done. We all win here and you start to win credibility with delivery. You maintain yourself as a reseller. The rebuild of hardware might be more costly presuming not to mention time consuming. This would at least act as a stopgap until you can restructure or redevelop the hardware and come back stronger later on. But for now this might at least legally satisfy everyone here.

You are a glutton for punishment man. cointerra is also having shipping problems and alot of the same as AMT. Maybe not as bad but also not reliable if you read the reviews of the hardware. Why would you want to deal with more of the same crap knowing what you know now?

The bitmain option would be better overall as its much cheaper and would net us the min required. Hell 2x S2s 2599x2=5198 We get 2 THs AMT pockets 1k per miner and we get more hashing power out of the deal. We get a complete hardware package out of it. IF they were going that route. But I doubt it. I think we just send back the boards they get torn apart and the chips get tested/reused on rebuilt hardware, tested and sent back out to us.

No matter how its sliced the legal route isn't working anyway right now. Note the class action....where is that going? Its taking long just to make it into class status. There might be more going on behind the scenes now that we don't know about, but as it stands we simply don't know. For the moment all we want are assurances and some kind of written guarantee that we are getting something on a committed date.

For those with a hard on for seeing them in jail, you are kidding yourselves. You MIGHT recover very little if anything at all. Our legal system does not quite work like it does on TV. Sure some restitution will be made but it wont be quick it will take years. Even with Bernie Madoffs scheme that's still being resolved and alot of people haven't seen or likely never will see their money again (just ask actor Kevin Bacon one of his victims). Our best bet honestly is to get the hardware mining and keep the heat on for getting the working hashes/hardware we paid for and moving on. Simplest results lie there. AMT might be able to turn it around to make a profit later on, but until they reestablish credibility with solid communications practices and making good on their commitments (by doing what they say they will do consistently) it will be a tough road  ahead for them and us.

Exactly.

For some reason they would rather offer up 5 different scenarios of payback, excluding an actual ONE TIME PAYMENT REFUND. Why is this? Seems very suspect to me.

Anyone who opts for a trickle back refund option (over the course of a year or what not) is a fool. You've essentially given an interest free loan to AMT for a year and a half.

FUCK THAT!

Remember the backlog of research from users here, about AMT's business registration?

THEY ARENT EVEN REGISTERED AS A U.S BUSINESS! They've been using Advanced Mining Technology's name, which is an actual mining company (other business) founded in the 80's.

An LLC might of covered their ass, but there is no indication of AMT LLC. or anything to that nature. Hell, maybe someone can point me to a webpage that shows their actual registered company?

I think Joshua left himself wide open to legal repercussions.

As for their assets that depends. Who's names are "their" assets in? If they are able to prove it's not not fraud and cause by undue damage to them by a third party that resulted in their inability to ship the miners as specified they their assets aren't going to be touched after a judgment was awarded and they wanted to declare bankruptcy.

With the whole hashfast, BFL and cointerra situations and pretty much every american manufacturer dealing with various delays and shady activity, any honest and transparent action is what will set them apart. IF and this is a big IF, AMT can actually deliver on any promises they make this time, within a reasonable time-frame, that might be the one thing that sets them apart. This is not the buyers fault. We all bought into something that has not happened. We paid money for hardware that failed consistently. If we get the existing hardware we have exchanged and replaced with the allegedly better designs, is there some kind of written warranty or guarantee we can hold AMT accountable to? At this point its a safe bet that we need anything said in writing and official for us to be able to feel like this is going to work. But at the very least getting us hardware that works consistently and is tested before leaving the assembly plant.

For all these other companies the writing is on the wall. Hashfast is headed towards insolvency, cointerra might be as well. BFL is an unknown. If AMT is looking to stay in business then regain the credibility by delivering this time around with more transparency and committing and keeping to a timeline and delivering well tested hardware that hashes exactly as advertised. Yes the occasional bad board is to be expected but the quality control should be there to catch 95 percent of the bad stuff.

If AMT wants to really do right by us then the best thing is to start showing off the new board working (videos, photos) and a committed timeline. If the vendor is reliable and has a reputation of reliability that makes it even better for us as well. Since you obviously are going through them to assemble this. Hopefully this is a vendor the community is familiar with and we can start hoping for better hardware to replace the bad stuff.

The upshot is then you become the sole mining hardware company that has delivered working hardware that works as advertised (discounting the previous fiasco). There are those who dont care and woudl see you fail and consistently post as they have no vested interest. They don't care that we put money into this. Others who have another angle like a lawsuit, also stand to lose even tho they lose anyway if it goes through. In fact we all lose. But if you can get us more info and commitments you will keep this time and maybe even we hear it from the vendor you sourced to who is doing the work it might be a better assurance for us to feel we are going to get results.  

To summarize everyone's concerns on this thread, the reality is that we can all go out today and buy 1Th/s miners for $2,500 now.  Those of us who paid $6,000 for the 1.2Th/s have lost about 2/3s of our money already. Yes, as you say you got screwed and are passing that along to us now.  Our goal right now is how to recoup that last 1/3 of the investment we have, if any more  times goes by it will basically be close to zero. Much like my litecoin machine that is making 29 cents a day. I guess nobody has to worry anymore at that point.

I am guessing that the A1 chip for now at least needs to be ran at lower speed for best stability/life. Ergo BMch's only selling 800's. Also note that the Dragon is also sold as 1-1.2TH implying they prefer the slow rate.

Well, then maybe they need to bump up the # of chips per board if possible or add another blade. Say maybe 10 per-board vs 8. Hmm, wonder how that balances the GH/W figure?

I almost did but it doesn't now (it ran at that for about 5 minutes @ 1.2 before a card burned out since then running on powersave mode second miner basically was DOA with a single working card I pulled into the working unit). So yea there is no consistent miner out there running at 1.2Ths. I had hoped to put together a nice review if it worked. But I have one totally dead miner and one that partially works. Only way to ensure it works is to make sure the settings are conservative. At least in that sense it keeps it reliable. But then it will hash at 800Ghs (now just over 600 due to another card that failed yesterday even on those conservative settings). The design is just poor. AMT already at least owned that due to the manufacturing process. So hoping we can get replacements with the new design but also with a definitive timeline and a commitment that the hardware will work. If we get a committed timeline and actual delivery that will help a great deal. But yea I have to agree at this point with people that more delay tactics just is not an acceptable solution. We get SMD screwed you guys (AMT) up. But we would like to see some assurances that whatever correction is made to address this has a firm timeline and committed dates to get us our hardware (that will actually be kept now)

If it means returning the old miners in to get the chips pulled off to get them replaced onto a new miner (for the ones still working) I would be happy with a solution that works at the advertised 1.2Ths rate as a base speed (in my case 2.4 as I purchased 2 units). Even if its more smaller units that equal that amount I would be satisfied with that. I want to honestly just get mining with what I purchased (I think I speak for everyone on this point) and not go through all this. Purchases should be a simple I buy it you ship what was advertised transaction not a negotiation on parts. We want working hardware in good working condition that was tested prior to shipping. its obvious that at least one of my miners was not as it burned out pretty much after I powered it up left with a single working card in there I swapped into a working unit and burned out there last night.

If you can provide us with some more info on the questions asked and at least commit to a timeline you can realistically keep it might help us get through this. But I think everyone here is pretty much fed up with any more waiting. We just want working hardware at the advertised speeds. I am kind of at that point too. I was helping out hoping there could be some way to salvage the hardware, but it does not seem to be much of an option without even more cost. If AMT can please respond to the concerns and post a timeline for option 2 that would be good. Also more information on it would be good as well.

Any news on a new timeline for replacement hardware? I too also have hardware I need to send back. Will this be an issue as well? I have 6 blown cards now....And I have been keeping the settings at your recommended at this point just to avoid any issues. I have been avoiding any higher settings.

I also offered to test out the new solution (option 2) you guys have. I figure as long as that is solid and stable I am willing to give it a shot. But it would be nice to get a timeline so we have some idea of when this will happen for us. Can you give us a bit more info about option 2? Getting a miner based on the current design (option 1) is risky based on what has already been said AND the various user experiences we have had. From a risk perspective if option 2 is far better tested and works, it seems like a better option provided we also have a timeline and are not going to have an insane wait again. A month at the most would be acceptable under the circumstances but we would want assurances that it would be done.

A few questions regarding the new design

Will it work with the existing backplanes?
If there are cards of the "old" design, will it work in a mixed config?
What is the timeline for distribution?
Will this be applicable to replace all the hardware we have (seeing as the current design is faulty and very prone to failure)?

The investment has turned sour for us Bitcoin investors, however the Mastercoin bagholders are up 2 times on their investment.

It's been said, repeatedly, that the MaidSafe guys have previously received funds invested from "friends and family" for past development work on this project, which is what I am assuming this refers to.  And provision has been made for "rewarding" these early alpha-stage investors, seed-capital supporters, in the current coin structure, which seems appropriate to me.

But I don't know that exact dollar amounts have been published, have they?  And is $3 million really that much for a project of this scope and potential?  Seems to me that even developing a silly game or smartphone app these days often "burns thru" a million or more before anything really substantial can emerge: how much does something like Angry Birds cost?

$3 million in 8 years is $375K a year = still looks like a shoestring bootstrap software development business to me, but they HAVE developed something compelling, so far... looks like to me.

So unless all this is totally wrong and I'm an idiot, personally I'm still gonna hang on to my safecoin, but if you don't agree?  Then, yeah, ya better go sell all of yours off before it tanks to $0 zero.

Hard to tell at this early stage of a game like this which one's really the smart move... if making money in speculative VC-type investments was so easy, then everyone would be doing it :-P

Some of the things we are laying the foundations for are third gen. A working, usable coin, with a clean code base and good security, no mining, no 51% attack and a reason to use the coin is just second gen.

Digital contracts, communication and identity infrastructure lay the foundation for the third gen. We do not know what the third gen will look like, but believe that it will involve platforms and 3rd party applications.

A first gen coin is extremely easy to fork. You just change the hash function or the name and logo and then release it. The first generation was about marketing. Bitcoin and then Dogecoin were the most successful coins in the first gen. Bitcoin has a strong community, the strongest merchant adaption and ecosystem. Dogecoin has the best community, the best marketing and wide adaption among younger users.

Between the second and third gen, we are seeing features like messaging for communication between addresses and other extensions. You cant fork the coin because your fork is no longer compatible with the ecosystem of the original.

At the same time, between the second and third generation the new platforms increase interoperability between first generation coins. Any two coins become automatically convertible between each other at the spot price. You dont care if they accept Bitcoin or which basket of currencies they accept, because it is the same for the end user. They just go to their wallet and hit "pay" and select the currency to pay in and which wallet they want to pay out of.

The third gen will have more community currencies or companies issuing their own currencies as gift cards ("small tent" special purpose currencies). In the second generation, we are seeing wallstreet exchanges and banks integrating Bitcoin as a commodity, like Gold. They are trading Bitcoin as a commodity, but have not adapted to run their infrastructure on Bitcoin type systems.

In the third generation, we might see new banks and exchanges which build their whole transaction infrastructure from cryptographic primitives, receipts and contracts. A user of an offshore bank has a receipt and counter-receipts from each transaction and the counterparties. The bank cannot steal his money or change his balance. The bank cannot authorize or forge a receipt for sending money to a third party without the users cryptographic signature. All banks expose a common API.

The things in the account no longer have to be currency pairs but can be other assets. All fiat is the same. You do not have separate systems and separate database table for different types of fiat. The system handles all fiat transactions in a consistent way.

In the third generation, anyone can issue bonds and options. Previously, there was counterparty risk for options. Only large financial players could issue options on equities. A large company is less likely to default from a bad options position. In the third generation, anyone can issue options. Options are digital contracts and the performance of the option contract is guaranteed by assets in third party escrow.  Crypto-assets become accounting mechanisms for legacy assets.

Many coins such as Mastercoin, Ethereum and colored coins are trying to jump to gen three. However, we believe that gen three will emerge organically on top of infrastructure developed for gen two coins.

Bitcoin has extremely poor extensibility for standards, so you have three wallets and three different wallet implementations and no interoperability, no interoperability between exchange APIs and no roadmap which allows third party developers to drive protocol evolution. Personal blockchains in Skycoin are designed be generic and allow users to individually upgrade their nodes to support new scripting languages, types of contracts and put control of the protocol in the hands of users and third party devs. The wire protocol is extensible and allows association of new applications with the Skycoin daemon.

We had to invent personal blockchains, so that individual users and developers could experiment and extend the protocol without threatening the mainchain. Colorcoin and other coins embedded on the blockchain will never be able to achieve the functionality required for practical use, because the Bitcoin developers have been forced to disable op codes for security,  there is no mechanism in the blockchain for pulling in the required data for a practical system of financial contracts and any experimentation with new protocols requires a blockchain fork.

If the evolution of the ecosystem stops at where Bitcoin is today, the full potential of crypto currencies will never be realized.