Cablepair, while we all belive in you, you said to have a prototype, why don't you post some pictures of it? A PM under a NDA would also do.
Thank you.
When did he say he had a prototype? He said he will have a prototype in a few weeks (aka sometime in Oct..) |
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I guess such calculations are not so easy to do, and depend a lot on the manufacturing process (Ex: 40nm vs 28nm). So probably they didn't have done right until now. It could be even possible that the original calculations were done with a very conservative manufacturing process (40nm) and finally they managed, to manufacture the chips with a better technology (28nm).
You are dreaming if you think BFL (or anyone else for that matter) is using 28 or 40 nm technology. Why you say that is impossible? Nowadays practically all semiconductor manufacturing plants have technology to manufacturer chips with 28nm. Of course they are not building the chips (that's just impossible) they are outsourcing the manufacturing process to companies like TSMC For example Altera (a very well-know FPGA manufacturer) offer a service that allows you to copy your design from an Altera FPGA to an ASIC with 28nm or 40nm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altera#ASICshttp://www.altera.com/devices/asic/hardcopy-asics/about/hrd-index.htmlIf NRE is on the order of >$100,000 USD for 130 nm ASICs, how can you expect BFL to afford 28/40nm type stuff that only the largest of companies can afford? |
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I guess such calculations are not so easy to do, and depend a lot on the manufacturing process (Ex: 40nm vs 28nm). So probably they didn't have done right until now. It could be even possible that the original calculations were done with a very conservative manufacturing process (40nm) and finally they managed, to manufacture the chips with a better technology (28nm).
You are dreaming if you think BFL (or anyone else for that matter) is using 28 or 40 nm technology. |
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The btcfpga site is now offline! it says "This Account Has Been Suspended", what happened?
Probably switched hosts and is waiting for dns for the domain to pass over is my guess. |
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This also coincides with GLBSE closing which could make many people (or even just a few with a large amount of coins) skiddish and trying to cash out.
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Another way to put it.
Jalapenos initially where 0.023489932885906 GH/s per dollar.
SC single was initially 0.0307929176289453 GH/s per dollar.
Upgrade Jalapeno is 0.0302013422818792 GH/s per dollar.
SC single upgrade is 0.046189376443418 GH/s per dollar.
EDIT: 832 above should have been 816. Never was able to get 832 running. It isn't like I dislike BFL. I have soo far actually been fairly pleased with their products. That having been stated I would say that my unit was less then spectactular for a 3 fan Rev. 3. Now it is far quieter and only occasionally throttles running 864 with warmer summer temps.
Edit 2: After rethinking my point, I wonder if heat is a limiting factor not power. The only aircooled unit got less of a bump. Possibly it is related. The issue to me still is not that the 4.5 is a good enough number but that the % listed was wrong. Yes on 66 2/3% it is correct but if memory serves that will net you a D in most educational situations.
Jalapenos aren't really competitive any more in the $/gh race which is unfortunate and why I ended upgrading to a little sc. |
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There is that risk as you say. They can still make tons of mistakes or find that hardware problems crop up during final assembly. I am not necessarily disagreeing with you.
To me (at least IMO) they seem to have some kind of past experience in shipping equipment that people order. There was an idea being foisted on the forums that they weren't capable of such. So this is (for me at least) a notch in the right direction.
Like you say, they may eventually deliver a working ASIC machine just like any of the other 5 (4?) competitors. It is a major roll of the dice on who will get through the fabrication process without any costly mistakes. Like the other member I am looking for mining equipment and the truth behind the rumors.
I don't care if the mining equipment has BFL, Avalon or BASIC logos. I just don't want to lose money like anyone else.
Right now there are tons of FUD floating around and some of it seems baseless. The Ebay thing was one of the things that made me pause and reconsider. Do I doubt they purchased the equipment? Well, time will tell when they gloat about how many devices they can put together in-house or at their local <insert building type here>.
If they don't gloat about their expensive purchase when/if it arrives, then I am sure more than *I* would be worried. Personally I would be more worried that they actually use it correctly than anything else. Perhaps you can put in a request to have Inaba pose for the camera? hehe
I know BFL will eventually deliver. They have the most funds and thus are most likely to succeed because they can swallow mistakes with greater ease. More than likely BFL will also have the lowest power consumption as well (assuming they use their large amount of funding to secure more competitive transistor size, but this of course we won't know until devices are releases since the only group who has released transistor gate size is avalon at 110 or 130 nm). My biggest concern about BFL and why their rep keeps sinking is because they keep telling half truths to imply they are farther along in their process than they are by using shady statements that have been outlined before. For ASICs what will matter is power and who delivers first hence why everyone is so tight lipped. Once the NRE costs are recovered the profits for these devices will be significant and we will probably see competition for next gen asics that use smaller transistor size and thus greater energy efficiency. |
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How does that prove anything? BFL hasn't made anything in house yet, they just put the pieces together. Once their equipment is set up it will be the first time they can do in house board fab. |
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And even Avalon have acknowledged that BFL's specs are very possible and that they see them as a serious competitor.
Before BFL's competition came along, the tin foil hat guys claimed that such specs are impossible and that the whole thing is a scam. Now they either find new reasons or I guess they assume that all of the competition and even forum moderators and other major people in the bitcoin community are all in the conspiracy together. Let's ignore the fact that these people have been accepting bank wires and paypal payments and that their full names have been disclosed to the public.
Being skeptical is one thing. Maybe they aren't as cool and collected as they seem. Maybe they are far behind schedule and won't ship the products until much later. Some people have some legitimate questions that I'm sure BFL will soon answer. But attacking them over every tiny little thing and accusing them of being major scammers with ZERO evidence and despite the fact that they have already proven themselves to be a legitimate business shipping real products... I just can't wrap my head around how people can be this stupid.
This same shit happened over at Open Pandora. People accused them of being scammers. People said their product would never ship. Yet thousands of people now own and love Pandoras. This same shit happened with Pier Solar. Oh, it's vaporware. They are just going to run with the money. But I now have a factory sealed copy of Pier Solar sitting on my shelf. This same shit happens everywhere. Do people get scammed with bitcoins? Sure. But the successful scammers always do it in a very smart way where they won't get caught. How on earth would BFL get away with this? Someone should make a documentary about this shit all Loose Change style. I'd watch it and eat popcorn while my shiny new BFL product is mining me some bitcoins.
I have no doubt BFL will have a real product eventually. I just don't like the way the go about releasing information in a somewhat deceitful way. They need a serious lesson in public relations since that is the source of their bad reputation. Luckily the community has been calling them out and being very vocal (asic main-net testing, ebay pictures) in order to ensure their transparency... but that community shouldn't have to do that, BFL should be up front about it from the getgo. |
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Have you seen Cablepairs place of buisness/pics of products or ngzhang's or Deepbits or ANYONE else's  Thought so,now :  Can't find a fault in my reasoning so you result to insults. Makes sense. And I don't have anything to call cablepair/ngzhang/deepbit out because they don't employ the same sneaky tactics as BFL does. The hint is if you are generally honest and what you say makes sense people won't call you out. |
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three Gentleman typhoon
I like your name for those fans better than the actual name!  |
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I am not asking for full disclosure. I am merely asking to stop blatantly lying (firmware upgrade) or implying things that aren't true (that fab equipment was already set up).
Please provide citations or stop spreading yet more misinformation. This is why the forums are useless. You make statements that you have absolutely no basis in reality to make. It does, but there's next to nothing there. FAQ... empty. News... empty. Documentation... empty.
Not seeing any useful information there, either. And this is why no amount of information will satisfy anyone. Over 1000 posts and a number of articles disclosing the information we are ready to disclose and its' "nothing" .. Whatever. You guys just go right on wearing those tinfoil hats. You can see my earlier posts which are direct links to your website regard sources. No basis in reality? You really want me to believe that you can BY MERELY adjusting the firmware (for a chip on a device that isn't even complete yet) are able to achieve a 40% increase in hash rate while maintaining the SAME power and temperature outputs? Really? who is out of touch with reality more here? Showing pictures of equipment you don't yet have doesn't imply you have the fab set up operational? You would have just let everyone assume you have the equipment already and set up except someone called you out. |
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The boards have always had an 8 chip capacity. That has never changed from day one. What you guys REALLY need is a complete disclosure thread, where the posters are limited to BFL people, and you can post all of your legitimate information there, with all these attempts you said you made, photographs of the office, etc, where you can refer anyone who wants to know about you guys. I mean, it could only help. This is what I'm talking about. I just posted in this very thread, a few posts up but you chose to ignore it: There is no complete disclosure at this time. There is far too much at stake to give full disclosure. In ANY OTHER INDUSTRY this is perfectly normal. The only "industry" that it is not considered "normal" is this twisted version of reality that's called BitcoinTalk. I am really sorry that you don't get full disclosure, but when it could mean the difference between being successful and failure, you're not going to get it. When it no longer matters who knows what information, you'll get that information, but until that time, it would be suicidal to give "full disclosure." Why would we invest so much money just to give a recipe/how-to book to the competition? Why? Seriously, answer me that. Why would we do that? What financial/business sense does that make under any circumstance? I am not asking for full disclosure. I am merely asking to stop blatantly lying (firmware upgrade) or implying things that aren't true (that fab equipment was already set up). |
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Is the 1 chip system he talks about the (formerly) 3.5 model? Or is it the 40?
------------------
If he is talking about a 3.5 having only 1 chip and the 8 belongs to a 40...then:
3.5Gh X 8 = 28Gh
4.0Gh X 8 = 32Gh
4.5Gh X 8 = 36Gh
5.0Gh X 8 = 40Gh
5.5Gh X 8 = 44Gh
6.0Gh X 8 = 48Gh
6.5Gh X 8 = 52Gh
7.0Gh X 8 = 56Gh
7.5Gh X 8 = 60Gh
8.0Gh X 8 = 64Gh
(Clockrate -> unknown)
Perhaps their ASICs are overclockable/underclockable? (I Don't know much of ASIC technology)
So.. does a 40% increase in clock rate sound reasonable? Especially considering their constraints around temperature and power? |
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Our board has always had 8 chips (or space for 8, depending on the product). That has not changed. Your tinfoil hat bullshit is wearing thin. What is hurting the reputation of BFL is the deliberate spread of misinformation designed to make you guys seem farther along in manufacturing these guys than reality. Then guess what? Wait. Either by them releasing no product or them eventually releasing a product with specs, you win. No other hardware manufacturer releases the kinds of information this forum asks for until their product is ready. You might get a leaked GPU shot from China but all chip vendors release general figures, and then a presentation upon when the product is final. I understand the difference between cautious vs complacent, but again, don't like it? Don't order. Done. Don't get me wrong. I understand the paranoia of wanting to know how everything is coming along when lots of funds are on the line. But since any company for good reason can't tell you everything, you'll have to evaluate for yourself as to if BFL is a good investment for you. Many here so far feel it is. If you don't feel it fits your requirements for peace of mind, go somewhere else. I am merely trying to explain to Josh (and the rest of BFL) why they are seeing so many people call them and be suspicious (esp with a community with so many scammers). It's a direct results of their actions and poor PR. |
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Our board has always had 8 chips (or space for 8, depending on the product). That has not changed. Your tinfoil hat bullshit is wearing thin. Great non-answer. How about being more specific. Were initial estimates based on having 8 chips in the sc for example or was that increased to remain competitive? I am still calling bullshit on the "firmware upgrade" story. So we do. "Oh shit you are lying because they are eBay pictures!" I am not saying you guys are lying. I am saying you are being deceitful with half truths. Had no one called you out you guys would have continued to portray it as if you had this system set up and operational when in reality it was just purchased. Don't tell us until it's actually ready. "Oh shit! You are lying because if you actually were making these things, you'd show us where you're at right now!" I have no doubt that BFL with eventually release a product. What I don't like is deliberate misinformation designed to make it SEEM like you are farther along than you actually are. This is especially the case with the piss poor attempts I gave above. That type of tactic is what is actually hurting BFL's reputation. You think all the crackpots screaming "scam", or "vaporware" or whatever is hurting your rep, but it isn't. What is hurting the reputation of BFL is the deliberate spread of misinformation designed to make you guys seem farther along in manufacturing these guys than reality. |
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See that's the thing, most industries don't even provide information. We provide some and somehow it's "shady." Whatever.
You'd be bitching and moaning if it didn't provide the information. You're bitching and moaning because we do provide the information. No win all the way around.
The latest (ie copying images from ebay auctions) is just the latest of half truths that only hurt BFL reputation rather than their intended effect. 1. http://bitcoinmagazine.net/butterfly-labs-offers-lifetime-warranty-asic-competition-surges-on/Images from an ebay list, it just doesn't make sense.. obviously people are going to be suspicious when they saw this. Why wouldn't you just wait for the equipment to be arrived and set up? This is once again trying to be deceitful with PR tactics to benefit your company. Pre-order rate slowing down due to backlog? Let's just give lifetime warranty and talk about our high speed infrastructure that shows we can pump out ASICs quickly in an attempt to increase the preorder rate. Had you not been called out, BFL I'm sure would not have said these were recently purchased and are currently in transit rather than pretending like the fab infrastructure was already in place. 2. https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/16-Announcement-BFL-ASIC-Release-specificationsGoing over this post, BFL tries very hard to make it seem like devices are actually made without actually saying devices are made. Speed and power figures are given, but in reality are probably just estimates based on simulations, not actual figures. If an actual device was made surely you would have better proof than (for example) pasting an image of the FPGA single on your upgrade page or posting just renders of housings. Second, the "firmware" upgrade logic to be honest doesn't really make sense. A 50% performance boost just by upgrading firmware? People reading this will obviously be suspicious, my speculation is that you are simply adding more chips than previously estimated to keep your devices competitive, but of course you can't say that since you are trying to make people think you have a working prototype (which in all likelyhood doesn't exist, and won't exist until we see actual devices). It's things like that, that any person with half a brain can see as "fishy" (not I didn't say scam) that hurt BFL's reputation. |
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I don't know why you think that not believing everything we hear from BFL labs makes us some crazies or conspiracy theorists. Its usually safer to question things when something looks fishy. I did when I seen that the photos did not look like they were taken at the same place. Different lighting, different flooring, different quality photos, on top of the fact that a usual scam technique is to steal pictures off other websites and call them your own. And I'm using the information I found and lowering my possibility of their release. I used to have gigaming shares to hedge the release of BFL asic, now (conveniently) I didn't think it was necessary any longer and sold them. A true conspiracy theorist would say that bfl products don't exist at all.
WTF is wrong with all these people!? I swear I have met the weirdest bunch of freaking weirdos ever since I have started participating in this community. Like I said before, some of you guys seriously beat the XBOX live crowd hands down and that is really saying something because their are some messed up people in that particular community so you freaks deserve a cookie of something. Anyways, why do you care whether Butterfly Labs is big or small, clean or dirty, LLC or Sole proprietorship? Why would any of these things matter? Why would you waste your life away on investigating useless conspiracies as these? I don't even own a BFL product yet(I wish I owned 5 singles for the last 5 months), and I could care less how clean the owner's ass is after he wipes it or how many times he shakes his pecker after he takes a leak! Would any of this shit affect my hashrate and therefore would it affect my profit? Hell No! So STFU and Get over it! I don't care if homosexual pornos are being made just on the other side of the production warehouse as long as no bodily fluids make contact with my product I'm ok with whatever goes on there. Shouldn't delivery, performance, and warranty be the only concerns we have? Btw superfastkyle, didn't you just say you were over it yesterday? What has changed since then? Just sayin If BFL stopped being so shady with how they present their information then there would be significantly less conspiracy theorists. BFL seriously needs to hire a PR person whose head isn't up their ass. |
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Satoshi Nakamoto are pseudonym used by Yamomoto Kamikaze and Seppuku Fujitsu.
Who the hell are they? lol try to figure out! Did you just combine the only Japanese words you know to make up those names? |
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