Butterfly Labs invests heavily in high speed production equipment

[squid]

There is that risk as you say. They can still make tons of mistakes or find that hardware problems crop up during final assembly. I am not necessarily disagreeing with you.

To me (at least IMO) they seem to have some kind of past experience in shipping equipment that people order. There was an idea being foisted on the forums that they weren't capable of such. So this is (for me at least) a notch in the right direction.

Like you say, they may eventually deliver a working ASIC machine just like any of the other 5 (4?) competitors. It is a major roll of the dice on who will get through the fabrication process without any costly mistakes. Like the other member I am looking for mining equipment and the truth behind the rumors.

I don't care if the mining equipment has BFL, Avalon or BASIC logos. I just don't want to lose money like anyone else.

Right now there are tons of FUD floating around and some of it seems baseless. The Ebay thing was one of the things that made me pause and reconsider. Do I doubt they purchased the equipment? Well, time will tell when they gloat about how many devices they can put together in-house or at their local <insert building type here>.

If they don't gloat about their expensive purchase when/if it arrives, then I am sure more than *I* would be worried. Personally I would be more worried that they actually use it correctly than anything else. Perhaps you can put in a request to have Inaba pose for the camera? hehe

I know BFL will eventually deliver. They have the most funds and thus are most likely to succeed because they can swallow mistakes with greater ease. More than likely BFL will also have the lowest power consumption as well (assuming they use their large amount of funding to secure more competitive transistor size, but this of course we won't know until devices are releases since the only group who has released transistor gate size is avalon at 110 or 130 nm).

My biggest concern about BFL and why their rep keeps sinking is because they keep telling half truths to imply they are farther along in their process than they are by using shady statements that have been outlined before.

For ASICs what will matter is power and who delivers first hence why everyone is so tight lipped. Once the NRE costs are recovered the profits for these devices will be significant and we will probably see competition for next gen asics that use smaller transistor size and thus greater energy efficiency.

[Unacceptable]

I've been mining for 6 months with my gaming rig, as I don't have the capital to invest in a dedicated mining system. I slowly accrued fractions of a bitcoin mining a few hours a day with a 5670 before upgrading to a 6870. I've read through hundreds of pages on this forum about how the entire system works. I'm a college student studying electrical engineering, and I'm very good at electronics design and dabble in python coding. I read through the source for poclbm and figured that phoenix is more efficient and a better overall system. I have earned a couple of hundred dollars from mining, and if I'm going to put it into an ASIC, I'm going to be damn sure it's worth it. I'm a low risk trader. I'm not betting my hard earned money on anything less than 100%. I'm not a newbie, I just want a concrete answer.

I stand corrected,my bad  

If you still can't make up your mind,then wait until everyone's ASIC's are released & then decide.

In the mean time,me & countless others will be making BTC & driving up the difficulty  

BTW,I've been unemployed/self employed for 3 years now & see no job oppurtunities in the near future,so this to me has been a great chance to get in on something thats going to be big someday soon & should make me a decent income along with my daily work.

I started mining in June of 2011 with 2-6950's,now have those & 2-6970's (added in aug 2011) & 1-7970 (added in aug 2012) & 1 BFL FPGA Single (added in march 2012)=3gh/s.

I'm rolling my earned BTC into ASIC's over & over,I hope to have 200gh+ by feb 2013,so I'm confident in BFL  

If you listen to rumors,then you'll never move ahead.

Best of luck in your studies at college & hope you have success in your chosen field  

[PuertoLibre]

There is a mystery about how BFL was able to turn a firmware upgrade into extra performance.

[Outrageous Speculation]

I was thinking until recently that they had simply overclocked the ASIC unit(s) on their devices.

Though now I am starting to wonder if they might have employed a trick found in the semiconductor industry. One of those tricks is turning off features like extra cores at the firmware level of the chip. In essence turning off extra processors [on the die level] via firmware.

I have no actual clue how they increased their performance [without increasing the power demand significantly] beyond overclocking the chip OR simply "turning on" various areas of the chip to increase performance. It would be of a great foresight if they intended to upgrade their devices remotely simply by selling the firmware at a future date.

It keeps churning in my mind lately that if they designed the ASIC to use several "sub-processors" in one chip package but kept most of it turned "off/disabled."..that would be an incredibly profitable strategy.

You could then upgrade a customers Mining device via email or a dongle without ever having to ship an extra one to the customer. [Is that the reason for a Lifetime Warranty??] People are wondering about the VRM and the excessive number of them.

If my computer knowledge doesn't fail me, one of the reasons server motherboards have more VRM's [Voltage Regulation Modules] and caps [Capacitors] is because they need to handle more power across various cores.

The general assumption in this community _seems to be_ that BFL is only using 1 core per die/socket. Considering an ASIC is probably very tiny and much simpler when compared to a modern processor....it makes sense to design a chip from the onset with multiple sub-cores.

Perhaps this explains why the performance went up, but the power rating remained relatively stable. We would be able to figure this out if we knew the TDP [or equivalent] of the old units at 40Ghs vs the "upgraded ones at 60Gh/s.

Anyway, just idle speculation....

[Unacceptable]

Well take the Single for example,upon release it was said to give 832mh/s.Then came the firmware updates that allowed it to hash up to 896mh/s.

http://www.butterflylabs.com/drivers/

Maybe they intended to do the same thing with the ASIC's 

[PuertoLibre]

Well take the Single for example,upon release it was said to give 832mh/s.Then came the firmware updates that allowed it to hash up to 896mh/s.

http://www.butterflylabs.com/drivers/

Maybe they intended to do the same thing with the ASIC's  

Hmm, those are the FPGA's right?

FPGA are usually ~re-programmable~ processors than General Purpose CPU's. It might be a case of simply optimizing the firmware?

It would be nice to hear from BFL if this was the case. Though if we actually "hit the nail on the head"....would they have any incentive to actually admit to it? Probably not!  

[Unacceptable]

Personally,I don't believe in conspiracy theories,I know I'll get my units & they will work as described.

So it makes no matter to me what they admit too in regard to bumping up the hashrates 

[PuertoLibre]

If they are using this method then it would actually boost their profits [What they care about] and their devices profitability/reliability [what we care about].

If they implemented this if you had a sudden fritz, they could send you a file to diagnose the issue. After they identified a fault they would just email a firmware to disable one core and turn on another in the same chip and presto, you'd be back to mining.

Or

Sell you a firmware to <cough> "upgrade" what you already have to a different performance level. [40gh/s to 60Gh/s]

If true...how much more unicorn blood do they have hidden inside each rig? [Again, just wild speculation...]

[Syke]

Yeah, you bought some FPGAs really cheap. Big deal. Design-wise, the Single sucked! I mean, the case was pretty, until you had to put a honkin' fan underneath it to keep it from burning up. Here, look at it again.

Dear sir, could you please point me to your wonderful FPGA mining product so that I may purchase it?  What's that? You don't have one?  Your only talent is being an idiot?  Oh I'm sorry, here:

So what you're saying is you intended all along to have a fan underneath case? Why don't the pictures on your product page show the Single as it truly is? Why is honesty so hard for you?

[bitmar]

My concern level went from yellow to orange when they raised  power their chips by 50%.
My concern level went from orange to red when I heard about the lifetime warranty on a product that was never tested. Any serious company says it's suicide.

BFL's PR has become so colored as to be impossible.
No one could ever raise the power chips of 50% - month before the sale, without increasing power consumption and without extreme overclocking. Rumors about firmware is funny, multicore is a very advanced and expensive technology. BFL offers what can not offer big companies such as Intel, NVidia, AMD.... This makes the BFL is for me an incredible company. Of course, I wish them luck but I'm not crazy enough to buy preorder. I'll wait until they have a finished product. I am also concerned about creating PR using fake photos. I am also shocked unfriendly treatment of customers who ask too many questions - they still want to invest a lot of money, sometimes their life savings, they just want to be careful. I am also worried that a month before shipment, they are not have  finished product. Where is the time for testing? How can you sell untested device? 24 hours is not enough.  Every serious company will be  laughing of this . I was also worried that the average time to develop ASIC chips (all  phases) takes an average of 18 months, as a small company you are working suspiciously fast. People have a lot of concerns, you as a company should try to resolve this instead of unkindly reply.

[makomk]

Yes, one of the first FPGA products out, before people understood the unique requirements that bitcoin puts on integrated circuits that you don't find in basically any other industry.

Oooookay... I know that fpgaminer was publicly telling people to increase the toggle rate setting in PowerPlay in order to get accurate power estimates several months before you announced your product, because I was one of the people who was using it at the time:

It isn't on the C4-115 chip, but for the tiny C4-22 it might be. Check with PowerPlay. Make sure no heatsink and no fan is selected, and the toggle rate is ~65%. See what it says the JT is.

As I recall, he had actual power consumption measurements on actual hardware back then too.

[DobZombie]

I can't wait for my BFL SC to turn up.  

All this crap will end and I'll BE ULTRA FUCKING RICH.

Optimism and positive thinking has done me WAY more good (and earned me WAY more $$) than all the bullshit I keep reading.

I'm an optimistic prick, and nothing ever gonna change it



Also, I'm not getting paid for my signature

[CoinHoarder]

I can't wait for my BFL SC to turn up.  

Me either. I've admittedly been hard on BFL throughout the pre-order process, but things have gotten out of control and I actually feel bad for BFL.

No matter what they say or do, someone always has some theory as to how whatever they say means they are scamming us.

November cannot get here quick enough, then all of the naysayers can eat their socks.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Here is a recently completed auction of the Essemtec reflow oven pictured.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e

Is there any way BFL could prove they won the auction?

Or if is the seller. Note that the eBayer has never received a feedback for selling anything. All the past feedbacks for him/her as a buyer. Last feedback from a year ago.

~Bruno~

[Kaliecious]

Damn, I could have freighted it BFL cheaper then what its costing them.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Hey, Josh. If BFL did buy that oven from that eBayer, I would have done due diligence of mynhung2006 prior to making said purchase.

First red flag would have been his lack of activity since 2011 via (feedbacks).

No feedback as a seller--only buyer.

But the biggest red flag on this eBayer is that he lied about whom he's seller the equipment for.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Precision-Manual-Stencil-Printer-STP-350-/320985487948?nma=true&si=mAWggEYKpH4g2H7aZLAFESK6gGA%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

http://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ShowAllQuestions&iid=320985487948&requested=mynhung2006&redirect=0&frm=2047675&ShowASQAlways=1&ssPageName=PageAskSellerQuestion_VI

Q:    i got for this item UPS quote $56 for CA 92618. It is not clear from listing, is packaging/handling extra, or $56 is S/H total? thanks.   Sep-21-12
A:    Dear Itest10, I am sorry for the unclear shipping cost, I am just helping a friend liquidating her manufacturing equipments and do not have experience with selling nor shipping. The packaging/handling is just $16.00 dollars more, the cost is for the thick box and packing bubble wraps. Thank you for your interest.

Yet he purchased a SMT Convection Oven a year ago.

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=AllFeedback&userid=engtechcorp&iid=-1&de=off&items=25&interval=0&mPg=4&page=2

Excellent seller, very helpful and kind hearted, highly recommend!!!!   Buyer: mynhung2006 ( 93)     Sep-06-11 12:59
    SMT Convection Oven (#170688982887)   US $5,000.00

Again, I'm not sure if BFL purchased this oven and has already taken delivery, but that sure would be ironic if BFL got scammed by an eBayer using pre-ordered funds.

~Bruno~

[Bogart]

So what you're saying is you intended all along to have a fan underneath case? Why don't the pictures on your product page show the Single as it truly is? Why is honesty so hard for you?

My favorite (other than mine) is gigavps's first Single.  Check pic 3 for lols.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53530.msg763375#msg763375

The ghetto engineer in me loves this.  The OCD engineer in me constantly worries about losing a finger when moving a Single.

Jeez, they could at least have put a grille over that thing.  You know, like ATX power supply exhaust fans tend to have.

Maybe they're rolling in so much dough that the potential for a lost finger from some customer's curious three-year-old and the resulting lawsuit is of no great concern.

[Kontakt]

So what you're saying is you intended all along to have a fan underneath case? Why don't the pictures on your product page show the Single as it truly is? Why is honesty so hard for you?

My favorite (other than mine) is gigavps's first Single.  Check pic 3 for lols.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53530.msg763375#msg763375

The ghetto engineer in me loves this.  The OCD engineer in me constantly worries about losing a finger when moving a Single.

Jeez, they could at least have put a grille over that thing.  You know, like ATX power supply exhaust fans tend to have.

Maybe they're rolling in so much dough that the potential for a lost finger from some customer's curious three-year-old and the resulting lawsuit is of no great concern.

You really think one of those could take off a finger? XD
I end up clipping my finger in one of those all the time when I'm doing maintenance on a running box. It just stings a bit. Rarely bruises and never breaks the skin. A burn is more a risk than the fan!

[neotrino]

My concern level went from yellow to orange when they raised  power their chips by 50%.
My concern level went from orange to red when I heard about the lifetime warranty on a product that was never tested. Any serious company says it's suicide.

BFL's PR has become so colored as to be impossible.
No one could ever raise the power chips of 50% - month before the sale, without increasing power consumption and without extreme overclocking. Rumors about firmware is funny, multicore is a very advanced and expensive technology. BFL offers what can not offer big companies such as Intel, NVidia, AMD.... This makes the BFL is for me an incredible company. Of course, I wish them luck but I'm not crazy enough to buy preorder. I'll wait until they have a finished product. I am also concerned about creating PR using fake photos. I am also shocked unfriendly treatment of customers who ask too many questions - they still want to invest a lot of money, sometimes their life savings, they just want to be careful. I am also worried that a month before shipment, they are not have  finished product. Where is the time for testing? How can you sell untested device? 24 hours is not enough.  Every serious company will be  laughing of this . I was also worried that the average time to develop ASIC chips (all  phases) takes an average of 18 months, as a small company you are working suspiciously fast. People have a lot of concerns, you as a company should try to resolve this instead of unkindly reply.

Perhaps you are missing the point that their previous specs were only guessed (in a very conservative way). And until they got the first ASIC assembled they didn't managed to know about the real specs they would get.

Assembling an ASIC is very expensive, so you can't assemble a "beta" version of the chip just for testing. You have to assemble the final production-ready chip and therefore you don't know the real specs until the final stages of production

[Bogart]

So what you're saying is you intended all along to have a fan underneath case? Why don't the pictures on your product page show the Single as it truly is? Why is honesty so hard for you?

My favorite (other than mine) is gigavps's first Single.  Check pic 3 for lols.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53530.msg763375#msg763375

The ghetto engineer in me loves this.  The OCD engineer in me constantly worries about losing a finger when moving a Single.

Jeez, they could at least have put a grille over that thing.  You know, like ATX power supply exhaust fans tend to have.

Maybe they're rolling in so much dough that the potential for a lost finger from some customer's curious three-year-old and the resulting lawsuit is of no great concern.

You really think one of those could take off a finger? XD
I end up clipping my finger in one of those all the time when I'm doing maintenance on a running box. It just stings a bit. Rarely bruises and never breaks the skin. A burn is more a risk than the fan!

Ya I dunno, depends how powerful it is I suppose, and how tough the finger is.

I have some 120mm 200cfm fans that run on 48V (still plastic blades), and it drew blood when I bumped a finger into one.

If you look at the pic and the shape of the blades, you will see that the exposed side is in fact the intake side, which will do a lot more damage if a finger gets caught in it than the exhaust side would.

[bitmar]

My concern level went from yellow to orange when they raised  power their chips by 50%.
My concern level went from orange to red when I heard about the lifetime warranty on a product that was never tested. Any serious company says it's suicide.

BFL's PR has become so colored as to be impossible.
No one could ever raise the power chips of 50% - month before the sale, without increasing power consumption and without extreme overclocking. Rumors about firmware is funny, multicore is a very advanced and expensive technology. BFL offers what can not offer big companies such as Intel, NVidia, AMD.... This makes the BFL is for me an incredible company. Of course, I wish them luck but I'm not crazy enough to buy preorder. I'll wait until they have a finished product. I am also concerned about creating PR using fake photos. I am also shocked unfriendly treatment of customers who ask too many questions - they still want to invest a lot of money, sometimes their life savings, they just want to be careful. I am also worried that a month before shipment, they are not have  finished product. Where is the time for testing? How can you sell untested device? 24 hours is not enough.  Every serious company will be  laughing of this . I was also worried that the average time to develop ASIC chips (all  phases) takes an average of 18 months, as a small company you are working suspiciously fast. People have a lot of concerns, you as a company should try to resolve this instead of unkindly reply.

Perhaps you are missing the point that their previous specs were only guessed (in a very conservative way). And until they got the first ASIC assembled they didn't managed to know about the real specs they would get.

Assembling an ASIC is very expensive, so you can't assemble a "beta" version of the chip just for testing. You have to assemble the final production-ready chip and therefore you don't know the real specs until the final stages of production

Specification of chips is well known in the design phase. Well known is  number of logic gates and technological process - it is easy to calculate the maximum operating frequency at  maximum safe temperature. Calculation error may amount to a few % , not 50% !!!
This is not FPGA  so you can just buy ASIC in a store and then check  performance. ASICs are built from scratch. If I'm wrong correct me.