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8021  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: Financial Choice - Looking for opinions. on: September 24, 2012, 02:11:34 PM
Long story short, Im inheriting $5000, with this I am looking to turn a profit, should I invest it in bitcoin miners, or should I invest it in GICs and government bonds, or perhaps play with it in the stock market? Note: I am getting a bit ballsier with money, knowing how worthless it actually is.

Also, Im 24 years old, and I have to start thinking about my financial security for my future.
None of the above.

Learn useful skills and start a business. There are a lot of things you can do that much money, from learning to weld to starting a small aquaponic farm. The best assurance of long term financial security is being willing to get your hands dirty and do some actual work.

Im planning on the business part, but right now Im in college and a job I just wouldnt be able to handle a job without killing someone by the end of the day. a 0.4% return per day is a lot, with my 6990 im getting about 0.2-0.3 BTC per day, at 750-850 mh/s. If I used the BFL 40GH/s Id be making more per day than what id get actually working, and thats my dilemma, If i were to get a couple of those, Id be making double, triple what i would working.

Except you won't.   If BFL delivers on those specs expect difficulty to increase at least 1000% probably closer to 3000%.  Combine that with the subsidy drop that 40GH/s "monster" will likely generate less than a 2GH/s GPU rig does today.  Now I am not saying "don't buy a BFL ASIC".  If the above happens GPU mining will be completely obsolete and at least with a 40GH/s rig you might be making 1% a week or so but don't think it is a just as easy as buy 3 rigs and make 100x what you do now.  Mining is a fixed sum game.  The same limitations you have now (in terms of time, resources, capital) will exist in the future too.
8022  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: Financial Choice - Looking for opinions. on: September 24, 2012, 02:02:22 PM
If you have any debt use the $5K to pay down debt. 
Much easier to make money when you aren't continually giving other people all your money. Wink
8023  Economy / Securities / Re: [GLBSE] Violating its TOS and Possible Laws depending on country of Origin on: September 24, 2012, 01:31:22 PM
In Texas people must file a yearly franchise tax report, even if no income was made and that report must list the corporate officer and managing director.  They don't file this with the Secretary of State, they file this will the Comptroller of Public Accounts.

When filling out the Franchise report (Texas Franchise Tax Report or Public Information Report) there is Section A called:  Name, title and mailing address of each officer, director or member.

You said owners.  Directors & officers aren't owners (although a director/officer can certainly also be an owner).  Now it does look like Texas doesn't provide as much privacy for LLC  members as they do shareholders of a Corporation. Pretty strange Texas would require disclosure of members of an LLC but not shareholders of a corporation.  Kinda makes LLC a second class citizen in TX IMHO.  Looks like members only need to be disclosed if the LLC is member managed.
8024  Economy / Currency exchange / Re: Bitcoins Direct - Private off exchange sales. (Update: PNC Bank now available) on: September 24, 2012, 01:03:21 PM
I don't think you understand why our banking fees are so high so that is a promise you can't deliver on. Still even if it were true you don't really think we would still be in business if we setup accounts so an unknown person on the internet in another continent would be the sole signatory on an account containing tens of thousands of dollars of company property? Wink
8025  Economy / Securities / Re: [GLBSE] Violating its TOS and Possible Laws depending on country of Origin on: September 24, 2012, 05:41:51 AM
Well you are missing at least a half dozen states from your list.  In VA for example no owners are even listed with the state corporation commission.  Directors and officers are but members (LLC) and shareholders (corp) are not.  There is nothing the state could give you even if they wanted to.  Tell you what you get me a list of owners of Tangible Cryptography LLC and I will pay you 5,000% of your costs.  

Still I somewhat doubt your assertion of getting complete owner info from the state of TX as it contradicts what their site indicates:

http://www.sos.state.tx.us/corp/managementinfofaqs.shtml#mgmt7

Quote
How can I find the ownership information for a business entity?

Corporations:

The secretary of state does not maintain any information on a corporation’s shareholders, with the limited exception of a close corporation; however, we do maintain records of an entity's registered agent and registered office address.

Limited Liability Companies:

The secretary of state does not maintain any information on the ownership of a LLC. The secretary of state has information on the initial members of a member-managed LLC. We also maintain records of an entity's registered agent and registered office address.

Also looked at the filing docs for registering a LLC or Corp in TX.  They don't even ask ownership information so how exactly did the state give you something they don't even keep records of?

8026  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Nefario GLBSE on: September 24, 2012, 02:08:15 AM
The issue is a voluntary buyback doesn't resolve the issue of people like Goat committing fraud in the future trying to sell the worthless shares for 10, 100, 1,000 BTC, and then the people saying why didn't GLBSE prevent this.  This all came up again when there was a thread where people were once again attempted to unload the worthless shares.
8027  Economy / Securities / Re: [GLBSE] Violating its TOS and Possible Laws depending on country of Origin on: September 24, 2012, 02:05:54 AM
You mean once you register as a corporation and sell stocks in yourself you wont have to list stock holders publicly? It is so different than in the USA... Anyway I am highly looking forward to the upcoming sale of the GLBSE stock and look forward to reading the contract.

1) Where do you get this mistaken idea that owners of a privately held corporation are public knowledge?
2) Why would the "contract" (corporate bylaws) of a privately held corporation be public knowledge?

Neither of those are true in the US, unless you mean a "US" other than these United States.


Actually people can get #1 pretty easily in the US.  Almost all states except for Nevada, New Mexico and Wyoming have confidential owners of LLCs, meaning it won't be released to the public unless ordered to do so by the judicial branch.  I am not sure about corporations, but the laws for incorporating are usually more strigent as corporations are technically are held to greater accountability than LLCs.  For example, in Texas the owners of LLCs a person can get corporate officer and director information.  Director and ownership information has to be filled every year for the franchise tax.  Usually you just send a request to the secretary of state or the comptroller for whichever state it is incorporated.

Maybe there is a typo in there.  You correct me and say #1 is easy and then go on to post how owner info is confidential and won't be released without a court order, which would imply #1 is anything but easy.  So which is it "easy" or requires a court order?  In most states unless you can show cause you aren't getting owner info.  If a person has a dispute with the corporation or it is employees the dispute is with the corporation/LLC not the owners.  Only in the event there is need to pierce the corporate veil does the owner's interest need to be known.  The post I responded to amounted to little more than a fishing expedition.  In most (all?) states, the state isn't going to release owner information simply because a third party "wants to know".

8028  Economy / Securities / Re: [GLBSE] Violating its TOS and Possible Laws depending on country of Origin on: September 24, 2012, 12:04:33 AM
You mean once you register as a corporation and sell stocks in yourself you wont have to list stock holders publicly? It is so different than in the USA... Anyway I am highly looking forward to the upcoming sale of the GLBSE stock and look forward to reading the contract.

1) Where do you get this mistaken idea that owners of a privately held corporation are public knowledge?
2) Why would the "contract" (corporate bylaws) of a privately held corporation be public knowledge?

Neither of those are true in the US, unless you mean a "US" other than these United States.
8029  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Nefario GLBSE on: September 23, 2012, 11:58:06 PM
Do you have a citation for the pricing?  I haven't seen anything to suggest that Goat purchased at the IPO price and then sold for a profit.  It sounds more like he purchased them for 10 BTC each, but I don't think he's actually said that explicitly.

Goat never stated or even implied he bought shares for 10 BTC ea.  He did however sell fake shares he knew were worthless for 10 BTC to unsuspecting fools.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=109660.msg1212459#msg1212459
8030  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin: low transaction fees, I don't think so on: September 23, 2012, 09:46:28 PM
I think you misunderstand a couple of ideas.  It is certainly possible to be "too greedy".  If your prices are too high you are more likely to face more competition.  So keeping prices lower makes the market less attractive to potential competitors.  Generally late movers will have to compete on price.  The first mover can attempt to make it very difficult for competitors by keeping margins relatively low.  Take MtGox for example.  There prices aren't excessively high.  Actually they are so low that a smaller exchange trying to compete on price will find themselves in a position where they are taking a huge risk for a tiny amount of net profit ($10K or so a year).   Now if MtGox charged 5% per trade it would be much easier for viable, cash flow positive competitors to emerge and the high margins would allow them to pay for improvements, security, and support staff even with small margin.

Essentially a high margin is a low barrier for entry.  Competitors need to risk less capital and the return on that capital is more attractive.  So it is possible to be too greedy.  That being said business is all about calculated risks.  Margin too high?  More risk of competition.  Margin too low?  More risk of buisiness failure.  Remember any startup has capital and early employees are either working only for equity or are taking a reduced salary to improve the financial outlook of the company.   The perfect margin is one where it is neither too high nor too low.  Of course that is somewhat subject and varies from enterprise to enterprise.

Quote
Lastly, I mentioned that if I were to operate any bitcoin service, I would charge minimum fees to cover costs, but also ask for donations.
There are substantial risks to this too.  What happens if you have a major loss?  You just close up shop? Dig into your own pocket?  What happens if you reach a point where expansion requires real capital (say hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars) by pricing your product/service so low you make it unattractive to potential investors?  Worse what happens if you underestimate the cost and have to raise prices later (generally it is less disruptive to start with higher prices and offer better deals over time than the reverse)?
8031  Economy / Lending / Re: Looking to invest in.... something on: September 23, 2012, 06:39:51 PM
When you say "considerable amount" what do you mean?  $1,000 is a considerable amount to some people but utterly useless for the capital expansion for any real enterprise.  
Are you looking for revenue share or actual equity?  I am sure you understand any equity stake is going to involve registration and thus taxation.  Given than companies are legal constructs of the state you can't have real ownership outside the state so that means playing by the rules of the state to include regulation, registration, and taxation. 

8032  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How much can we stand? on: September 23, 2012, 06:31:47 PM
Classic flick and it's unlikely to suffer a crappy remake Smiley Yep, ENOUGH of the scam accusations. Chances are out of 100 dodgy looking investments there's at least 1 or 2 that will make it big and cover the others.

That is naive.  If you invest in 100 high risk but legit deals the odds are the 1 or 2 will pay for the 98 or 99.  That is essentially what venture capitalists do.  However if you invested in 100 Pirate ponzis you will lose 100 times.    To use an analogy it would be like pretending that if you are involved in 100 muggings at least 1 or 2 will be profitable enough for muggings to be +EV for the victim.
8033  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Bitfloor CrowdSource Recovery Proposal: 224 1k Investors on: September 23, 2012, 06:16:16 PM
Tangible handled the repayment of TheBitMan's creditors because he had no low cost mechanism to convert USD to BTC and repay creditors.  The Bitfloor, Inc doesn't have that problem so I don't think Bitfloor, Inc needs our assistance in handling repayment.  I did (acting individually unrelated to Tangible Cryptography LLC) offer to provide some capital towards a restart if certain conditions were met.   So far Roman has not accepted that offer.  I only have to assume he has either secured other investors at more favorable terms or intends to handle repayment himself and thus avoid dilution.

I do hope Roman realizes that to restore confidence in the market there are a couple of thing he can do:
1) The creditors deserve to know the exact amount (down to the Saotshi) owed.  This is useful in projecting repayment and considering offers.

2) There should be a mechanism for the debt to be traded.  As an insolvent debtor Bitfloor, Inc doesn't have the right to not assist its creditors.  Bitfloor can certainly charge a fee for its time and can put conditions on the transfer of debt but it needs to be transferable.  All parties benefit from open markets (even in debt).  Some creditors are unwilling to wait and by making it impossible to sell that obligation Bitfloor inadvertently makes their only recourse legal action.  This is counter productive and expensive and can be avoided because there are others who are willing to purchase debt and thus become voluntary creditors of Bitfloor.  Bitfloor also benefits from an open market because it allows price discovery and give Bitfloor the option to repurchase its own debt in a fair and transparent manner.

3) Bitfloor likely needs more outside capital however raising $224K USD to simply pay $224K in debts isn't really an investment strategy.  It leaves the company in the exact same situation it was prior to the hack.  Bitfloor needs to be capitalized and thus have the working capital and funds for capital expenditures that allow it to ignore short term profitability and work on growing revenues in a sustainable manner.  I am not saying Bitfloor shouldn't repay creditors but repayment in full upfront simply doesn't make economic sense.  However if hypothetically Bitfloor raised say $150K to $200K in capital it could make a one time payment of 30% of face value of the debt and use the rest to pay for salary, datecenter space, etc.

4) Bitfloor should attempt to get creditors to voluntarily sign to new terms.   Before someone freaks out notice the "V" world in the prior sentence.  The unknown status and terms of debt is a legal risk (and one reason I made this a condition for any investment).  By offering creditors the option to agree to repayment terms the debt would no longer be in default.  The upfront payment in #3 could be used a carrot and likely most creditors would sign to the new terms.  This puts Bitfloor on a more stable legal and financial footing and makes it more attractive to outside capital.  The terms could specify the repayment schedule, even if the repayment is based on net profits it could contain certain provisions which guarantee a minimum repayment and at the same time protect new investors.  For example if repayment was "done once a month based on 50% of the net profits from the prior capped at 5% per month with a guaranteed minimum of 1% per month" that would provide creditors with some assurances and allow better price discover of the debt.   Investors would be more confident in the success of Bitfloor investment as it limits the cash drain from the company.  The terms could also put a min & max exchange rate which caps the debt in USD terms (say $5 and $20 USD:BTC) protecting both parties from extreme changes in value.

Anyways just my ramblings on the subject.

TL/DR:
Roman,
Transparency, liquidity, and defined terms (voluntarily accepted) can only improve the outlook for all parties (bitfloor, potential investors, and existing creditors).
8034  Economy / Securities / Re: [GLBSE] Nyancat Financial: Your Friend for Life on: September 23, 2012, 03:21:27 PM
I still don't get why you guys rage so much about usagi. Of course some BMF went down but less than comparable bonds. Nyan.c went down but less than other Pirate pass-throughs. I think that it is a wonder that nyan.c did not default and as far as I understand it is because usagi managed well.

So can the haters please explain to me, why they think usagi is a bad manager. Maybe you need to explain it in a way which is understandable for idiots (like me, or as you claim usagi Cheesy)

Wait so the standard for being a "good manager" is to lose less money than idiots?
Tell you what send me 10,000 BTC.  In a year I will send you back 8,000 BTC.  A loss of only 20%.  That should get me fund manager of a year award right?
8035  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Nefario GLBSE on: September 23, 2012, 02:33:48 PM
I am trying to understand what is going on with this but am having a difficult time deciphering the problem.

So there was to be a GLBSE asset that was going to be nefario's and people bought shares, but now it is being said that the GLBSE listing was actually fake?

Now nefario won't use his omnipotent powers of TOS rules or "vetting" to correct the situation, but is instead saying that he can't make changes because of voting? Is this for voting on the "fake" GLBSE or for the real one? Is there a "real" GLBSE listing? Is the "fake" listing still active?

No none of that is correct.  GLBSE has never been publicly traded.  Foolishly nefario never blocked the ticker symbol GLBSE.  Another scammer, registered a contract under the ticker GLBSE and sold about 30 BTC worth of shares before it was delisted.   At this point neither the fake listing nor the real GLBSE shares are available for trade.   Anyone who had fake GLBSE shares at the point it was delisted has them in their accont.  They can be transfered to another account. 

Goat has some (? number) of shares of the fake stock.  He knew they were the fake stock when he bought them, he knows they are the fake stock now.  He ripped off other users selling what he knew was fake stock for 10 BTC a share (a 10,000% profit for himself).  Nefario has said the fake GLBSE shares will be removed from everyone's accounts and they will be given the IPO price (0.1 BTC).  Goat (the only scammer in the thread) calls that a scam.
8036  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Nefario GLBSE on: September 23, 2012, 02:08:40 PM
Goat has thus far refused to communicate with me, so I'm going to go ahead and post my thoughts based on the available information.

I don't think Nefario is a scammer.

If Nefario were to honor those shares, he would be in breach of contract with the shareholders. He cannot issue new shares, nor can new shareholders be brought in without a vote from existing shareholders. Giving him a scammer tag for not doing something he legally can't do is not ethical or logical.
At the time he made that promise, he either knew or should have known that he couldn't keep it based on his existing contractual obligations. He made it anyway. He and others profited from that false statement, whilst people like Goat who had no reason to believe that Nefario wouldn't fulfil the promise he had made - because unlike Nefario they didn't have any way of knowing about the contract stating he couldn't - have lost money.

Why are you assuming goat lost money.  Reading between the lines Goat bought shares at the IPO price, shares he knew were worthless.  He then sold a few of them for 10 BTC ea (a 10,000% profit) to victims and now will get reimbursed in full for the remaining shares.  So please tell me exactly what Goat "lost"?
8037  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bitcoin up 7300% in one year! (w charts) on: September 22, 2012, 07:12:08 PM
Can the forum software be modified to auto-lock threads after say 180 days of inactivity?  Lately it seems there seems to be a rash of pointless thread necros.
If a thread is really that important mods could have the ability to unlock it.
8038  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin: low transaction fees, I don't think so on: September 22, 2012, 05:12:15 PM
Is it reasonable to insist on being paid an enormous amount just because people are willing to pay?

There is no such thing as enormous amounts.  In a free market is the prices are too high competitors will join and drive down prices or the demand will be reduced as potential customers are turned off by the high prices.  Entities looking to maximize their return is what leads to price discovery.

If a price is too low show a buyer avoid it and offer to pay more?  That is the reverse of a company lowering their price despite demand at the current price.

Consumer looks for the lowest price for the goods/service and company seeks the highest price.  That dynamic leads to more participants.  With lots of buyers and sellers you get a better price discovery, a clearer view of what "the market" in aggregate considers an acceptable price.
8039  Economy / Service Announcements / Re: Notice of fee change on GLBSE on: September 22, 2012, 04:49:48 PM
Most people don't even read their prospectuses for their mutual funds.  It is just the reality of investing.

Which is why they pay taxes to the SEC to handle their responsibilities for them.  Entities like the SEC ensure that even idiots are shielded from the true risks of blindly investing.
So getting a little meta either you give over responsibility for the state OR you take person responsibility.  You can't have it both ways.  Nefario seems to be taking some of that "SEC like" role.  By putting up min requirements and specifying default contracts it would provide at least some protection.

Also I would point out in a community each shareholder isn't a "island" they can ask questions.  While the responsibility is still personal they can draw from the knowledge and expertise of others.  Community members can provide explanations.  Members can point out the risks of a contract saying X or not specifying Y.  At least putting it in writing creates a starting point.  Better and better contracts will be built by looking at prior contracts.  Simply having all rights undefined and nebulous prevents any sort of "best practices" to emerge.  
8040  Economy / Service Announcements / Re: Notice of fee change on GLBSE on: September 22, 2012, 04:44:17 PM
On what grounds would you allow a dispute? IOW, what would judge.me be ruling on, whether or not a contractual change is "fair"?

Essentially.  People have this mistaken conception that the "law" (and we will use third party arbitration in place of the courts here) defines every aspect of every scenario imaginable.  The reality is it doesn't.  The law, contracts, regulations are more like guidelines.  A lot falls between the cracks.  Most of the time all parties can reach an equitable solution even when something isn't explicitly defined.  If multiple parties can't reach an equitable consensus then it falls on an independent third party to make a decision.

So lets take Matt's idiot bet.  I am 100% convinced that any third party arbiter would squash his "reason" for nothing paying.  It was nonsensical.  The contract doesn't have to define that the example isn't binding and is just an example in order to make that so. 

Look I am not saying it "should" be done this way or that way.  I am just saying that in the real world contracts do need to be revised, and amended.  The idea that you can't have that without allowing 51% of shareholders to rob the 49% is just silly.  As Bitcoin "grows up" it will need to forge its own standards otherwise things like GLBSE are merely toys where nerds rob other nerds pretending to be doing real business.  In other words GLBSE is just Eve Online without the starships. Smiley
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