I'm curious to know if Blockchain bloat is going to be an issue with this coin. I've played around with several CryptoNote coins of, and they can be take up a lot more space than other coins.
Im just about ready to scrap CryptoNote and go with typical blockchain. will put it to a vote, but so far there is no love for cn. |
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Think of it like a funding round. The breakout coin originators are like the series A round of funding and the ICO for those that read this thread should be the B round of funding.
But you guys are just skipping the B, C, and IPO rounds and going straight to the post IPO round all without giving investors a chance to even see what the price stabilizes at so investors are going in completely blind. How much actual money has been spent to date on launching Breakout Gaming? What is the current company valuation? We need to know these things.
these coin crowd-sales are a new paradigm. im sure money was spent on launching breakout gaming, and are now selling a genesis coin product. If you still want to compare, the ico is more like the ipo stage.. I dont know how you can compare it to post ipo? You need to leave room for this round of investors to profit just like yourselves. You need to set the price and set it low (cap the ICO or double the coins we get by eliminating the 7 million in BRO giveaways) where you're pretty positive it will grow with the games up and running. This should be the B round, not the post IPO round.
how would doubling the coins for the ico make any difference to your logic? eliminating the giveaways, is a very bad idea for the long term prospects of breakout coin. coins are successful with wider distributions. if you think widely distributing free coins are a negative for a coins survival, you have not been paying attention. As it currently stands, you are asking for people to blindly send money without knowing whether they paid 100 SATS per BRO or 1,000,000 SATS per BRO. And that's just kinda wrong......and greedy too.
but your ok with it, if we double the number of ico coins? even without knowing the price? I think once we all know how many BTCs OP is hoping to raise, we can all get some insight into price and market-cap. |
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Its really easy to understand !!! Can we know the fuckin price before investing money ?lolllllll
do you expect us to give you a price for the 4.5 million coins? If so, we would be setting our own market-cap. Companies NEVER choose their own valuations, markets do. or do you just want a price, with an uncapped number of coins? If so, I understand why this would would make you feel better.. but its exactly the same. either price or quantity can be fixed , not both. if you want both, i would suggest you wait to buy in the secondary market. As serious devs, YES you should be able to give us approx what amount of money you need to build the project you want to do. Its not an open buffet here. You are talking like if you set a price, you will automatically choose market cap for ever. The market cap will be decided by the free market when trade will be opened. If you dont know how to give early investors a chance to have positive investment, just copy/paste Bitswift and you will look like a genious  yes an approx amount of money is indeed needed, this is not the same as having an actual price in the ico. im not sure.. can op answer this? i would guess around 8000btc maybe, will the official op give a number? |
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Regarding the unlimited ICO - if you'd like to invest 1 BTC, but don't know what to do because it's unlimited. Hedge your bets and use 0.5 BTC in the ICO, and 0.5 BTC to buy from the exchanges after the ICO. Problem solved?
Great suggestion! not in general, uncapped ico does NOT imply a lower price in the secondary market. if it did, then none should invest in the ico and everyone should wait for the secondary market. in our case its a bit different because in-fact ico coins are more valuable then secondary market coins due to to expected-value of the bergstake. so in our case, the price of the ico coins will be higher then the expected price of the secondary market coins. However, the expected-value of the ico coins is higher then the expected-value of secondary market coins. expected-price(ico coins) = expected-price(secondary market coins) + [ ev(future bergstake coins) discounted for time] edit: piece of personal advise i once heard: "one should not invest because of expected returns. one should only invest with risk capital if and only if this risk capital had been put aside "BEFORE", the opportunity presented itself". this is not early days of bitcoin, this is a serious project with real long term commitments and implications. expect coin to be priced at value. the days of ordering pizza with 10,000 bitcoin are just biblical stories from yesteryears. |
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Its really easy to understand !!! Can we know the fuckin price before investing money ?lolllllll
do you expect us to give you a price for the 4.5 million coins? If so, we would be setting our own market-cap. Companies NEVER choose their own valuations, markets do. or do you just want a price, with an uncapped number of coins? If so, I understand why this would would make you feel better.. but its exactly the same. either price or quantity can be fixed , not both. if you want both, i would suggest you wait to buy in the secondary market. |
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Make an ICO reasonable or don't do it at all.
please explain what a capped ICO is? Are we supposed to be deciding the price and the quantity? If so we would be deciding the initial market-cap of the coin? Isn't that for the market to decide? If we set price to high, there will be no buyers, if we set price to low, it will be sold in in minutes, and the distribution will be centralized. Uncapped ICO's will leave them with a loss which is a bad thing for crypto in general. Looks like greedy devs screwing people over.
If this is known, shouldn't the market adjust itself for this? If uncapped produces losses, then there should be less buying interest, which would eventually produce profits, and this should go back and forth until the market finds value. |
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You start dumping. And continue dumping. And continue dumping, as the price dives. You dump until it goes to 500, not just because you dump but because people panic sell. At 500, you start buying. And price goes back up. Rinse and repeat.
what is your average selling price on the way down and what is your average buying price on the way back up? this is the only thing that determines alpha in this simple strategy. take a look at bottoms or lows at any free market. what do you notice?  notice the volume spikes at the lows? this brings the vwap down on the way down and up on the way up. prices move towards liquidity, not away from it. prices bottom when selling stops, the buyers at lows are not overwhelming, yet the snap back is so violent, simply due of lack of sellers. there is where liquidity in reality kills the backtested alpha. this strategy has no alpha for the big player, maybe there are weak hands that capitulate at tops and bottoms, and this strategy works for a mid size player, by making an aggressive sell to start an avalanche of stops. the big player has better alpha providing heavy liquidly on both sides, and given that the gaming company wants to retain its players, and players don't like to be exposed to extreme volatility, i would say the alpha is in providing liquidity, rather then starting a panic. |
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-- I believe the price of BRO in the markets will be highly manipulated by Breakout Gaming.
more like provide liquidity for. i just dont see the incentive. I have explained it before a couple of times... adding that it isn't only legal but that if it was me I would use it as a souce of additional revenue: Breakout Gaming through rakes, fees, buy ins, etc., will receive a lot of both fiat, BTC and BRO, along the huge amount it will have already through their 67% ownership of the coin. It WILL dump to replenish the reserves at will, thus sinking the market to buy cheaper. Whale action 101. The incentive will be significant from the get go but, as the success of the project augments, we are talking huge income on that manipulation alone. HUGE. there is no 67% coins - more like 11% where do you think some of the 2.5 million is going? the humans in the company are breakoutcoin stakeholders to. also the bergstake, gives incentive to keep prices stable. its doesn't work like that, even if you can sell it down.. there wont be enough liquidity to buy it back at lower prices. Whale action 101? has this ever been verified? does this even work? they have looking into silver prices forever, and its still inconclusive, its not such a simple strategy. |
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-- I believe the price of BRO in the markets will be highly manipulated by Breakout Gaming.
more like provide liquidity for. i just dont see the incentive. |
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For everyone's sake, please reconsider "BRO"... It is the complete opposite of the vibe you want to put off, I hope. I know what you mean. As soon as I saw that I just did one of those face palm things with the thought that it's a bunch of 20 somethings running the show that somehow think that will make them look like a serious coin. But then again I tend to look at these things a lot differently than most it seems. Okay point noted. But with any investigation you will see that your assumption can't be further from the truth. I'm far more proud of the project concept and team than the coin acronym. BRO is the ticker symbol. its breakout coin, or breakouts, or the coin formerly known as http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/quickchart/quickchart.asp?symb=BRO&insttype=&freq=2&show=&time=20 |
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-- I agree "BRO" is over the top.. everyone is just excited, its been a long wait.
-- Its Breakout Coin, its an alt-coin, with a marketing and distribution strategy and is tied to a global gaming startup with long time professionals.
-- Its not 100% pre-mined, its not going to be insta-mined, its not a pump and dump.
-- There is real innovation in Proof-of-Bergstake, the ico, the marketing, design, games, and more
-- we can set a price of the coin and have the total pre-mine uncapped like ethereum, or we can have the 4.5 million without a price.. in the end the ico investors will have the same percentage of the pre-mine.. the ICO is actually 45million milliBreakoutcoins, sound better?
-- I would assume they are trying to raise 8-15 thousand bitcoin. is the early bird incentive structure not common in regards to ico distribution?
-- the sale could always be stopped early, has happens many time on successful ICOs, however, in this case we really just want longer term investors that are looking to hold for months, we want investors that will actually be "mining" with their bergstake in 2016.
-- After the ICO, all holders are part of the breakout network and can vote for anything related to the coin.
rising tides gentlemen
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Will there be updates as to how much has been raised so far in the ICO during the 30 days? I wouldn't really feel happy leaving my BTC invested for so long if there wasn't.
yes, it will be in the bitcoin blockchain, and on the purchase web page. |
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Argg, too much interest I feel that the ICO price will be too high now. Everyone go away, there's nothing to see here. Shit coin.  yup, go watch the stock market tank! |
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Dev, I have just one question. If I will mine on pool during PoW, how the pool will send me Bergstakes?
Current pool technology will not enable this. So the pool operator will keep all the Bergstake, and to compensate, they will have to distribute all or most of the BRO to miners. This is why we are developing a new kind of pool, where when a block is found, all miners will be entered into the coinbase transaction directly. So there will be 100s of outputs. This "feature" will keep pools smaller and less centralized. |
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I vote yay . edit: if you tell me exactly what your worried about and what you are looking for as an ICO investor, I can put a technical perspective on it, and im open to be convinced to changing the specs. things are dynamic, and flexible. for example, other investors had asked that we switch to an alternative from CryptoNote. These are all not the core value of the coin, and ultimately the coin is owned by all of us, and if he makes a compelling argument I will bring it up myself. So lets hear what you, as a small or large investor would like . Thanks for the replies. 1. Do you know what the ICO pricing will be per BRO? Because with 14 million outstanding BRO with a tremendously fast 33% 2 year dilution emission curve, then it could easily be the case that the ICO will represent peak prices over the near to medium term simply due to the bulk selling of miners over the next 2 years. Add in the fact that users that got their BRO for free will be far quicker to dump for any price (because their cost basis was zero) and you have another huge 7million 33% dilution dumping on the market. price will be market driven. there will be miner dilution over 2 years, giveaways will be managed with demand, and even if ICO is peak near term, you get to sell in first 2 years, and then get to sell again with rewards from bergstake. if you feel ICO will be peak price and peak EV, then its probably not a good idea to invest. 2. Was there ever a consensus about the "coin killing flaw" that possibly exists in all Cryptonote coins? If you haven't read the thread, you need to and this is not the scam thread, but the thread covering the possible coming attack on the Monero blockchain. If all cryptonote coins do have either a backdoor, or a fundamental flaw, then it's best to iron this out now before launch. Also, gaming and gambling cause more blockchain transactions that most everything and Cryptonote coins are vulnerable over the long term to blockchain bloat. Maybe the 2 technologies are not as good a match as previously believed. Have you considered just using energy efficient X11? Still GPU only and will most assuredly stay that way for the remainder of the 2 year POW phase and most miners are already familiar with this protocol so you get your stated goal of reaching the widest distribution. Plus, you don't have to worry about some secret super high hashing GPU miners as has been the case with the Cryptonote coins.
Also, if you desired blockchain anonymity, You could still get the anonymity of cryptonote and others by allowing BRO users the option to simply plug into the SuperNET family of coins to gain access to Boolberry (a cryptonote coin) or BTCD's anonymizing Teleport technology.
excellent points, yes, we are aware of recent cryptonote issues and have backup plans in place, such as x11 or x13, but even without CryptoNote, we can still use CryptoNight, no? I am not familiar with SuperNET, but if it provides anonymity without the bloat, its a huge plus. not sure there will be time to make a change, but again the ICO investors will be able to demand changes with majority vote using bergstake. 3. Consider giving away less BRO and deliver far more coins in the ICO with the goal of lowering the price per coin. Kinda sucks asking someone to pay real money for an unknown price for a coin only to have that same company then give away almost twice as many BRO for free in order to drive customers to their for profit gambling business for the financial benefit of the owners of said business. Just rubs investors the wrong way unless you were also going to give Bergstake or ICO holders real ownership shares in the actual Breakout Gaming corporation.....which I would be all for................the blockchain could be a certain percent owner of Breakout Gaming and then everyone that owned the coin would share that ownership.
the giveaways will be done though gaming platform, in small amounts, over long periods of time, and they will not just be able to cash out immediately. the giveaways are key to building the gaming business, which uses BRO denominated chips. also, ICO investors get Bergstake. regarding ownership, the coin does not represent ownership of any kind, the coin only represents what it is; a decentralized crypto currency. |
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Why wont u use BTC (and DOGE/BC/LTC / other fast/strong coins ) ?
It looks like you will have huge premine and risk nothing
All gaming chips will be denominated in BRO, so Breakout Gaming will have to match all deposits with BRO, which creates some value. In return they get 7million for giveaways, and BTCs from initial sale, this could not be done without a new coin. |
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Thanks, I see it now.
Will the bergstake be distributed in proportion to how much is bought per-person in the ICO ?
1 Bergstake per BRO Thanks. Couple more questions. Does a Bergstake virtual mine another Bergstake or a BRO? And do you have to keep your Berg for 2 years before it can begin it's work? no. Bergstake cannot generate Bergstake, this is what fixes stake grinding. Bergstake is only used after PoW More Questions: 1. So since Bergstake cannot mine more Bergstake, then the total Bergstake is 7 million mined plus 4.5 million ICO, Correct? "Distribution of BRO at 2-Years 12% - 2.5 million – Developers, Marketing, Pros, Bounties, Ops 21% - 4.5 million – Initial Coin Offering, Genesis block + Bergstake 33% 7 million – Giveaways - 2 year distribution schedule 33% 7 million – Mined during PoW phase + Bergstake" 2. And for the 2.5 million for Developers and 7 million in giveaways....there is no Bergstake for them, correct? 3. Then if we assume 11.5 million total Bergstake ever in existence, what precautions, if any are you going to do to make sure there is no centralized 51% attacker at the onset of the POB period? 4. Also, are you going to do what is necessary to bring in an independent auditor to verify that there are no hidden premined Bergstake shares owned by a centralized person who could perform undefeatable timewarp attacks on BRO. Thanks. -Drkman All these questions can be answered with some more details on what exactly Berstake is and how it works. No special coin or data or anything is added to the blockchain to generate Bergstake. Every new BRO coin has Bergstake. The first transaction for every coin is the "Coinbase" transaction. Before these newly minted coins are transferred away, the BRO and Bergstake are the same thing! What exactly is this thing? Its an output with an address, and is owned by the person who can prove its his address. There is even Bergstake in bitcoin. (seriously, if there is every a major emergency with bitcoin, moving to PoB wont be a bad idea!) When these "virgin" BRO coins are transferred to a new address, the Bergstake is not transferred. It remains tied to the original address forever. Why? Because thats how its defined. To answer your questions: 1. 2. a pre-mine is the same thing as a mine.. and every mined coin has Bergstake. However, since Bergstake cannot be transferred, we have yet to come up with a solution to distribute the 7 million Bergstake with the BRO giveaways. The plan has always been to burn these 7 million Bergstake. However, after the ICO and before the Genesis block launch, there is an opportunity to either distribute some more Bergstake to ICO investors or to even have a large freeroll poker or fantasy tournament. This can be done if put to a vote and voted on with your ICO Bergstake.. The idea is to distribute the Bergstake wide as possible, which leads to your next question. 3. In general, with consensus systems, if there is a single holder with 51% then he always wins because he is the consensus. However to get 51% of bergstake a single miner would have to solve over 50% of all blocks. For there to be 51% holder there would need to be 51% mining power throughout the entire 2 years of PoW. Even if this does happen, a 51% attack really wont be successful, because he cannot acquire the other 49%, so the worst he can do is cause a complete fork in Breakout coin, with one fork of 49% and one with the 51% attacker. if the attacker tries to "mine" on the 49% fork, he will lose his Bergstake due to "double-mining-proof". 4. Its technically impossible for there to be more Bergstake then BRO. However, the genesis block will need to contain the addresses of every single ICO investor, and we will most definitely have an audit of this open-source transaction and compare it to the Bitcoin Exodus inputs. |
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Bergstake FAQ
Do I need to know about Bergstake to use BRO?
No. Breakoutcoin can be used like any other digital currency, users of the currency will never encounter the Bergstake, but should know that Bergstake is used by miners for the purpose of securing the coin and the network and prevent double spending.
How is Bergstake different than Stake?
When you own a digital currency, you have “stake” in it. The stake that you own was transferred many times over before it reached your wallet, just like that dollar bill in your pocket.
The story of the coin starts when it was originally “minted” by a process called “mining”. The miner, presented a “proof” that was accepted by the network and added to the blockchain. As a reward, the miner is allowed to give herself a number of shiny new coins. She then mints these new coins by making a transaction that sends coins to her wallet. These coins now enter circulation and will be transferred from wallet to wallet as currency.
Bergstake is the “stake” of a coin at the moment it is minted. Before the coin is ever transferred; Bergstake is the Stake! Once a transfer is made, there is a new stake holder, but not a new bergstake holder. The Bergstake is forever owned by the initial minter, and cannot be transferred away.
So whats so special about Bergstake?
The properties of Bergstake allow the use of “Proof-of-Bergstake” to reach distributed consensus and secure the blockchain. The technical details are out of this scope, to learn more, please research Proof-of-Work and Proof-of-Stake blockchains. See our forum threads for links to white papers.
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Thanks, I see it now.
Will the bergstake be distributed in proportion to how much is bought per-person in the ICO ?
1 Bergstake per BRO Thanks. Couple more questions. Does a Bergstake virtual mine another Bergstake or a BRO? And do you have to keep your Berg for 2 years before it can begin it's work? no. Bergstake cannot generate Bergstake, this is what fixes stake grinding. Bergstake is only used after PoW |
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Thanks, I see it now.
Will the bergstake be distributed in proportion to how much is bought per-person in the ICO ?
1 Bergstake per BRO |
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