Bitcoin Forum
September 21, 2024, 04:22:50 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.1 [Torrent]
 
  Home Help Search Login Register More  
  Show Posts
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 »
21  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Hardfork when? on: March 20, 2017, 02:52:17 AM
No, "when" would be hard to predict. I believe miners will have a tendency to become fickle once BU reaches almost 50%. They realize that the future of Bitcoin is hanging in the balance and as humans we usually do not want to break the status quo. I am not 100% sure but maybe one of the mining pools could back track and support Core again.

a poison pill will do it - i guarantee it - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1833046.0
22  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: [ANN] Bitcoin PoW Upgrade Initiative on: March 19, 2017, 09:24:03 PM
Denying scientifically proven, empirical evidence under the guise of religious views is not valid. It's insanity. And luke-jr is not a developer.
religion is insanity - whats your point - ive read luke-jrs code

i can scientifically prove with empirical evidence that luke-jr is a developer... hmm guess the religion here is called "BU"   
23  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: [ANN] Bitcoin PoW Upgrade Initiative on: March 19, 2017, 09:21:49 PM
there is something here - its about "scaring" miners to stop signaling BU .. hope someone else can run w this idea.. changing POW is a bad idea - it will push all "good" miners  to BU

Such a proposal, changing POW, is a sign of insanity.
It wil be the end of the trust in BTC, the network will be unsecure for a long time and BTC will become a shitcoin

changing POWis on the table because current centralized miners are attacking bitcoin, and will kill it. Satoshi said 1 CPU 1 vote.. never envisioned asics
 

24  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: [ANN] Bitcoin PoW Upgrade Initiative on: March 19, 2017, 09:07:42 PM

THIS!!! So fucking much!

There will be no PoW change, this is merely a propaganda act by Blockstream to spread FUD about Bitcoin Unlimited. Core is about to lose the vote and now they're butthurt about it.

And luke-jr is a despicable idiot. Nothing more. Certainly not a developer of or contributor to anything, other than outdated views and retarded ideas.

BU is technically incompetent.... nobody will ever run the BU node with that mess of a codebase.. only chance for BU is: after they signal, make a large bounty and give real developers 14-30 days to properly upgrade core to 2mb limit.

Nobody trusts BU code - who cares about LuekJr religion. i trust his code.. and have nothing else in common with him.... I probably have more in common with you and Roger Ver, but will never run your BU nodes.

bitcoin is first and foremost a technical miracle.. economics is secondary

BU is actively attacking an 18 billion dollar asset that is owned by all humanity and has the best engineers volunteering their time for the greater good.

BU is cesspool - BU is negative - BU is unsustainable  
25  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: [ANN] Bitcoin PoW Upgrade Initiative on: March 19, 2017, 08:49:50 PM

there is something here - its about "scaring" miners to stop signaling BU .. hope someone else can run w this idea.. changing POW is a bad idea - it will push all "good" miners  to BU

Yes, I noticed that BitFury has been sending their people to meet with Bitmain recently; maybe they are feeling a bit nervous due in part to this PoW talk.

some kind of financial incentive to non BU signaling miners is a must. also I think there are two separate issues

1) how to avoid the fork
2) how to defend against attack post fork

starting the convo with POW change will not help to stop the fork

maybe we change from "PoW Upgrade initiative" to "Defending Bitcoin initiative" 
 
26  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: [ANN] Bitcoin PoW Upgrade Initiative on: March 19, 2017, 08:11:02 PM
Alternative that doesn't screw over the all the miners.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1833046.0

....yeah... I don't think that works... For reasons others commented in the thread.

Keep working on it though-- the mutually assured destruction angle seems interesting. It may be possible to salvage the concept. I might even give it a few cycles.
Regarding deterrence it would be cool to change the PoW algorithm at the same moment BU activates.

yes, as a poison pill, that will stop it from happening on the first place
27  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: [ANN] Bitcoin PoW Upgrade Initiative on: March 19, 2017, 08:10:07 PM
Alternative that doesn't screw over the all the miners.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1833046.0

....yeah... I don't think that works... For reasons others commented in the thread.

Keep working on it though-- the mutually assured destruction angle seems interesting. It may be possible to salvage the concept. I might even give it a few cycles.

there is something here - its about "scaring" miners to stop signaling BU .. hope someone else can run w this idea.. changing POW is a bad idea - it will push all "good" miners  to BU
28  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: [ANN] Bitcoin PoW Upgrade Initiative on: March 19, 2017, 07:01:30 PM
Alternative that doesn't screw over the all the miners.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1833046.0
29  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Why BU should be correctly classified as an attempted robbery of BTC, not a fork on: March 19, 2017, 06:36:48 AM
Why Bitcoin Unlimited should be correctly classified as an ‘attempted robbery’ of Bitcoin, not a fork

https://medium.com/@Coinosphere/why-bitcoin-unlimited-should-be-correctly-classified-as-an-attempted-robbery-of-bitcoin-not-a-9355d075763c#.r5f6ui934

An excellent article that describes how trying to overtake the name of a project via hard fork is unheard of and nonsense.

Looks like BUcoiners can't accept if they fork they will be an altcoin.

I agree - and here is a poison pill to stop the robbery

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1833046.0
30  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BU + segwit on: March 19, 2017, 06:34:30 AM
SegWit has already block size increase. But Jihan and Ver and their chinese miners puppets just want to control bitcoin not to increase block size. There's no possible compromise, no more debate we should just ignore and discard them and procede with UASF.
 Bitcoin future is at stake and if Bitcoin fails all alts will follow, people wont believe in crypto

last line of defense poison pill to stop the BU fork - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1833046.0
31  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BTC Hard fork is a good thing. ETH did very well. on: March 19, 2017, 03:17:35 AM
Everyone pushing for a hard fork in bitcoin is risking all of our money.  Segwit gives them (BU) the increased block size that they want while protecting the network sovereignty. 
It's obvious they don't want blocksize increase, they want to control bitcoin

Thats the truth.  This debate over blocksize is turning into nothing more than a hostile takeover attempt.

Yes - and you stop a hostile take over with a poison pill.. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1833046.0
32  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Defensive Nuclear Weapon - Armageddon Avoidance - Proof-of-SegWit - poison pill on: March 19, 2017, 02:48:59 AM

BTC goes to Proof-of-SegWit... we give all remaining block-rewards on the BTC chain to those miners who signaled SegWit prefork. assuming BTC still has majority economic value... all those BU signaling mining rigs are now unable to be used... knowing this, miners will start signaling SegWit , and BU will never hit 75%

 

So how does BTC "go to proof of segwit" without changing the consensus rules in the first place?  If you could get 51% of the miners to agree, well... then why not simply just use the 51% majority to initiate segwit directly?

after the fork, the BU signaling mining wont count, so yes we have miners agree on a fork. problem is that BTU will then do a 51% attack on BTC, segwit or no segwit.

i can see your not understanding this... thats ok -

if this gets put into code, then it gets activated at the same time as BU does...

all you have to know is that if BU forks then all miners who have been signaling BU will never earn another BTC block-reward, because their mining rigs and hash-power is no longer relevant.
33  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Defensive Nuclear Weapon - Armageddon Avoidance - Proof-of-SegWit - poison pill on: March 19, 2017, 01:57:08 AM
Seems like an extreme thing that would have a hard time getting support. I don't know if people would want a built in poison pill style deterrent.

it only gets activated as the sword is being thrust into our hearts... last line of defense, after all else fails.. we are fighting a real strong attack and there is not one strategy to stop a 51% attack post fork... and changing the POW to another POW will just cause the remaining SegWit miners to start signaling BU 
34  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BTC Hard fork is a good thing. ETH did very well. on: March 19, 2017, 01:52:42 AM
no no no - not a good thing - vitalik needs to stop talking
35  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Defensive Nuclear Weapon - Armageddon Avoidance - Proof-of-Coinbase -poison pill on: March 19, 2017, 01:48:31 AM
https://docs.google.com/document/d/13j-TcKdZ5dM5QYQDHFEyM5F65Bat-EaA4AM-_vCWaG8/edit?usp=sharing

Bitcoins Nuclear Option - A Defensive Weapon for Armageddon Avoidance   
Proof-of-Coinbase (POC) -  Poison Pill   

Quote
BTC refers to the post-fork bitcoin-core / SegWit fork of bitcoin
BTU refers to the post-fork bitcoins unlimited fork of bitcoin

Bitcoin Nuclear Option (BNO) is a Bitcoin Unlimited (BU) repellent system. It is a built-in nuclear weapon that will act as the last line of defense during a post contentious hard fork in the face of a BU 51% attack against BTC, when BTU has at least 85% hash-power. It is a poison pill, that when made known to the “tl;dr” BU supporters and miners, it will act as a deterrent and we will avoid the fork in the first place.

Assumptions
BU is technically incompetent as a whole
BU is actively attacking a $18 billion dollar asset owned by all humanity
BU will attack with intent to destroy BTC and rename itself from BTU to BTC
Bitcoin will die if above is true

Summary
BNO is a bitcoin fork that activates with the same protocol as BU hardfork. The post fork BTC will not be POW for even a moment. Once the fork occurs there are two coins BTU, with sha256 POW and BTC with POC. NBO activation in core code will be based on 95% signaling, and since its post-fork, BU signaling blocks will not count. All BTC forks by core would essentially be non-contentious.

Objective: To stop bitcoin from forking.
Mechanism: A poison pill that activates with BTU fork.
What:  A change from POW to POC on BU activation
Result: Existence alone should compel miners to avoid BU signaling.
How: POC gives all the money to non BU signaling miners, making it unprofitable to signa BU   

If successful, BU will never be activated, similar to the success of Nuclear Weapons as a defensive deterrent.
BNO is an offensive weapon meant to prevent an attack the same way nuclear weapons are used as defensive deterrent mechanism.



Playbook
BNO takes the playbook for the Chinese Central Bank.
 
Chinese Central Bank “manipulates” it currency by setting caps and floors. However the yuan trades in many free open markets, so how does it actually defend against the cap?

Instead of fighting the market head-on, it uses a strategy where the market itself never tries to test them. It makes it known to the public, that it went short trillions of dollars of call options at the cap price.  Market assumes that China will defend it position, so trying to buy above that price is all risk no reward.

They avoid a costly battle against the open market by pre-emptivley putting a “poison pill” at their cap price, that they would have no choice but to defend with everything they have.

BNO is a poison pill, where its existence alone should avoid it ever getting signaled!

BNO Strategy
In the context of a bitcoin armageddon. ie; a post fork and imminent 51% percent attack of BTC from BU leaders
Implementing BNO in core and describing its effects, should deter BU activation.
  • Threat itself disincentives miners from signaling BU
  • POC rewards miners for signed blocks without a BU signal
  • Best case - BU never signals, the status quo - cold-car
  • Worst case - BU and BNO gets activated, and BTC instead of getting killed by a BU 51% attack, is now POC and immune from BTU hash-power attack


Activation
-- BNO get activated on BU activation
-- The first post fork block is no longer POW, but POC.

Each pre-fork mined block with BU signal, gives that miner one less opportunity to “mine” post-fork blocks in BTC.

Assuming majority of bitcoin economic activity remains with BTC, BU miners just lost most of their infrastructure investment and are limited in the number of block-rewards they will ever receive in BTC. On the other hand, miners whose blocks did not signal BU will get their full share of  the remaining block-rewards and TX fees for the foreseeable future.

Effects
Before describing POC and debating its merits, it is important to understand that by giving away large amounts of future bitcoins to non BU signaling block miners, many miners will stop signaling BU. This itself should ensure BU and BNO never get activated.

To be clear: BNO activation is not in anyone's best interest, and would only get activated as the final and last line of defense, when BTU forks off BTC with 85% hash power and initiates a 51% attack on the economic chain of $15 billion.


Proof-of-Coinbase
POC is a Proof-of-Stake like system, but it is immune to the issues with POS, like “nothing at stake”  and “stake grinding” or “long-range attacks” .

Virtual Perpetual Mining Rig
The idea, described by others before, is to use POW from previous blocks to build a virtual mining rig.
  • Miners who solved POW would secure the private-keys that controls the outputs from the coinbase transaction in each block
  • The set of all public-keys from coinbase outputs is used as the “Stake” in POS
  • Even when the coinbase coins are transferred, the “Stake” keys do not change

POS is a controversial and highly debated topic, but with some specific properties it can be as secure as POW (and alot faster).

Again, to reiterate, the point here is not to debate if and how it will work, but to point out what will happen if it does in fact work. Which should stop it from being signaled in the first place.

Theorem 1:
Distributed Decentralized Consensus (DDC) can reached via “proof-of-stake” if the following conditions are met:
1) Stake is static and is immutably tied to a specific public-key
2) Block signer selection algorithm is independent of the contents of any block data.
3) The set of public-keys in the selection algorithm was created from a Distributed Decentralized Consensus (DDC) protocol.  
 
*see proof


Using a static set of public-keys from historical POW as the “Stake”, and not using contents of the block to determine block-signer, removes “long-range” or “stake-grinding” attack vectors, and enables “byzantine consensus” via proof-of-stake.


POC Algorithm
  • Coinbase in Proof-of-Coinbase is defined as the  set of public-keys from coinbase outputs of non BU signaled blocks since block n
  • Coinbase set is static and immutable, and is used in lace of Stake in POS consensus algorithm
  • NXT POS (forging) algorithm is used to determine the next block signer from the Coinbase set.   
    Note: no TX or Block data is used in determining right to sign next block. See: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/38730

POC is a pure POS system where public-keys from coinbase tx from non BU signaled blocks are the stake, which give miners block signing rights.

NXT forging algorithm is used to decide who gets to sign the next block. This algorithm DOES NOT use the contents of the current or previous blocks to determine next signer, so “long-range” attacks are eliminated.  Slasher is used to solve “nothing-at-stake”.

All other theoretical issues, and centralization concerns are debatable. However these risks are acceptable in the context of a poison pill used as a defensive mechanism to a 51% attack 

In practice, most private-keys from old coinbases are probably not secure, so we should have a start point from where to start using coinbase keys as “stake” so miners can start securing those private-keys, even after coins are transferred way.
 
Conclusion
Proof-of-Coinbase turns the mining hardware of non BU signaling miners into  “virtual perpetual mining rigs”, and they will earn block-rewards indefinitely. While miners with all BU signed blocks will not earn a single BTC block reward.
 
This poison pill, makes BU signaling less attractive as BU gets closer to activation, which will bring BU hash power down. 
 
A (Nash)  equilibrium should emerge below the BU activation threshold, and BU should never be signaled. which was the objective of Bitcoin Nuclear Option.
 
 
 
 

Code:
Pseudo Proof - attempted 
=======================================================================

*Theorem 1 Proof:  Must show one case of DDC reached via POS algorithm
 
Lemma1: POW is a DDC protocol
Lemma2: POW produces a set of public-keys tied to the coinbase.
condition #3 met

Lemma3: a random sampling from a set of keys in Lemma2 is a DDC protocol.
Corollary: assuming no collusion, a deterministic sampling is a DDC protocol.
Corollary: sampling Lemma2 set, in block order, in an infinite loop is a DDC protocol
         condition #2 met

Lemma5: we define “stake” as the Lemma2 public-keys which is static and immutable
         condition #1 met
 
Theorem proved by defining “Stake” as the public-keys of all coinbase TXs from discrete set of historical POW blocks, and defining the Block Signer Selection protocol as ordered by “block number”  and looping at highest block in set.

========================================================================

 

36  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [PRE ANN][ƑɃ] Fantasybit - Fantasy Football - Proof-of-Skill - Protoblock Apps on: March 01, 2017, 02:17:44 AM
Github Activity

37  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Steemit.com: Blogging is the new Mining on: February 18, 2017, 09:37:09 PM
I have just created my first ever Steemit post here. Would really appreciate some tips and advice from the professionals.

https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@vintagebazaar/successfully-invest-bitcoin-with-augmentors-game-ico

Now i have been trying to understand how the "system works" I read something about if you own Steem tokens, the mroe you have the more voting pwoer you have, is this true?

Also if this is the case, how do you prove the Steem tokens you have?

Thank you.  Smiley

can you write one for us? @protoblock?
38  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Steemit.com: Blogging is the new Mining on: February 18, 2017, 09:35:35 PM
If anyone can borrow me 200,000 Steem for say 90 days... i'll return it with 25% extra

you mean. if anyone can "lend you"? or am i just old? is "borrow me" the new "practically"?
39  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Steemit.com: Blogging is the new Mining on: February 18, 2017, 09:34:09 PM
So far I have not heard a single fundamental bull case for steem. Why buy? Whats the speculative upside? Utility?

having said that... I'm looking to buy steempowerd accounts. are they transferable?
40  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [PRE ANN][ƑɃ] Fantasybit - Fantasy Football - Proof-of-Skill - Protoblock Apps on: February 18, 2017, 08:41:45 PM
Stackoverflow.com jaybny Undecided Kiss
  Undecided Kiss



Pages: « 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 »
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!