There is no seed in the scheme Bitcoin uses, I am not sure how many times you will need to be told this.

Actually, we have a stronger assurance than for SHA-1. The parameters in secp256k1 (which is not a NIST selected curve, contrary to your repeated instance) are fixed entirely by performance considerations, similar to the Ed25519 work which you lauded up-thread. There (far) are fewer degrees of freedom in secp256k1 than in SHA1.

This isn't to say that it might not turn out that there are snazzy new mathematical weaknesses possible, but there appears to be no room to have forced the selection of them. ... and snazzy new mathematical weaknesses are possible for anything. As soon as you've gone down the paranoid path of ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE OMG.  ... Well, anything is possible, and anything else might be insecure for unknown reasons too.

Yes, the signatures are larger. But you were saying

Which is just @#$@#$ nonsense, and I was responding pointing out that public keys would be no larger, and so your invocation of balances is just hysterical jibberish.

You've continually repeated misinformation in this thread (and in other threads, now that I connect your name). I realize that it's due to your ignorance and not due to malice, but it means that interacting with you is a waste of time.  ... and I'm worried that I'm rewarding your poor understanding and poor research by continuing to respond to ridiculous claims.

Do your own work for a bit, instead of making me feel like you're just converting every doubt you have into a FUDdy misstatement of fact in order to make other people do the work in refuting you.

Because that is an emulation of exactly what we have now!  It's fine but it's effectively what we have now. Jesus.

None of these things follow from that premise. You might as well have listed "Peace on earth and goodwill towards men".  We can already deploy merkel signatures, with no incompatibility at all—(many) existing clients can already send coins to them, and would deploy them in weeks if there were ever an indication of our current checksig becoming weak. "Balances" are entirely orthogonal.

HTTPS is more deeply insecure than just the CA infrastructure sucking.

It requires you to keep the signing keys _online_, on a publicly accessable well know webserver, where they're maximally vulnerable to compromise. Practically any website of scale is run out of some colo, most of which have fairly poor plant security. Because of DOS attacks (I'd estimate) 3/4 of large Bitcoin sites have handed their SSL keys over to cloudflare... etc.

Back to the CA infrastructure:  Many CAs will issue a certificate to anyone who can place a file on a URL of the the domain in question of the CA's choosing. They fetch this file over HTTP, so anyone who can MITM a websever can get a certificate issued for the price of a few bucks and a few hours delay. The system is not just weak to state level attackers.

It's stronger than nothing at all, but there is a good argument that its a false sense of security, and as a result I've been torn about if it would be good or not... Though in this case, the services we're using simply don't support it.  (I've advocated it though: Even if user's overall security were ultimately decreased by using it, it shifts the spectrum of compromises to ones where the public will blame the victim (or the CA infrastructure) rather than "bitcoin", which reduces the ecosystem risk...)

There there is a question of what you'd even be authenticating against. AFAIK, Bitcoin.org isn't formally controlled by any of active developers (I believe the domain is under Sirus' control).  I mean, if you're just going to trust _any_ HTTPS site to obtain the data from, I'll drop my pgp key at the bottom of this message, and you can use the fact that you got my key from the forum to verify the keys in question. (Theymos, why doesn't the forum profile stuff have a field for pgp keys?)


-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

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-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

HTTPS is not that secure. Fortunately we have _two_ different signature systems which are better than HTTPS which are in use. GPG signatures by Gavin's signing key, and gitian signatures.

It's just as easy to refute small charges on a credit card (the merchants only recourse is to sue... which isn't worth it— unlike Bitcoin which can become effectively irreversible in the hour timeframe credit cards are reversible for months), shoplift, pass bad bills, or invalid checks. And yet business go on. There are many unfortunate costs of doing business they just get priced in.

(and I'm not sure why you don't think that reading off some ID would be unacceptably burdensome— if it was a transactional norm it could be perform in the same way as a credit card payment: a card swipe)

In any case... In these cases any time the attacker does this, he's running the risk that he gets caught and gets a kept by the shopkeeper and gets a free ride to the police station, like any other shoplifter.

You're confusing Bitcoin the currency and Bitcoin the payment network. Or do you go around telling people that USD is impossible to use on the internet because its little bits of paper and paper can't be sent digitally?   There are way to have secure (or more secure) instant transactions, but they don't just involve pretending that an unadorned unconfirmed Bitcoin transaction is safe.

Your doublespend-qt is already part of blockchain.info, BTW: https://blockchain.info/create-double-spend

Thats what it said, and then there was a quasi-retraction following it which can be read as suggesting there would be a difference between MPP in batch 1 and later. I'm not assuming there will be, but if they are considering that— I was suggesting they consider harder.

Hashfast first batch customers paid 2.5x the current sale prices— part of that was that the MPP made the risk of paying so much on a pre-order somewhat reduced (at least the risk of massive hashrate growth on a product months out was reduced, and that risk is increasingly looking like a reality).

But if later MPP customers get ready-to-plug PCBs it means that raw chips issued to initial batch customers may be worthless, as there might not even be a secondary market to get those chips lit up with. So if you're suggesting that you'd give first batch MPP customers a weaker deal than later ones, I hope you do consider this carefully.  If MPP fires off it may already mean that customers aren't getting their investment back, giving people useless chips and no solid path to make use of them would add insult to injury and might turn a reputation boosting program into a reputation hurting one.

This is Bitcoin-101 basic tech support stuff, so I've removed it from the development discussion subforum.

If Jimmy can find you, he can send one transaction to you while sending a conflicting transaction just to major mining pools. You and your immediate peers (via you) will hear one transaction but a majority of the hashpower will hear another.  So jimmy has pretty good odds of ripping you off. Also, presuming the trade you were making with him was a fair one (one where he wouldn't mind losing the doublespend race) he doesn't have to be 100% successful, he would be happy if he only won the race some of the time.

Miners are restarted sometimes, and some miner may be (or may start to) accept later conflicting transactions if they pay a higher fee. Until a transaction is confirmed you really don't know what miners will mine.  Jimmy may have made the first transaction unattractive to the network for reasons your node doesn't understand, it's also paying so blacklisted address or it's violating some new anti-dos-attack heuristics... sometimes later transactions get confirmed instead of earlier ones.  Jimmy could also be partnering with a miner or paying one off more explicitly.

Indeed, its trivial to announce the transaction concurrently to fractions of the network so one half gets one version and another half gets another. This can give jimmy 50/50 odds even when he doesn't know where you are on the network.

No, it wouldn't currently and not only that— it probably _couldn't_ tell you because nodes will not relay a duplicate transaction, so if you tell your peers about the version you like, none of them will likely pass onto you the version you don't. It's somewhat hard to make alerts possible without opening up a trivial DOS attack on the network.

Your comments ("a transaction from the same address") also suggest a profound misunderstanding about how Bitcoin works under the hood.  Addresses are largely irrelevant, they're a fiction created by wallet front ends (and blockexplorer sites).  A transaction spends specific coins which are identified by their output index and the creating txid.  A conflicting spend is one that spends the same txid:vout, a "from" address doesn't come into it— and in fact transactions have no "from" addresses at all.  Jimmy spending unrelated coins is not risk to you.

There are plenty of cases where doublespending isn't a risk— the customer is standing in your shop, you copied over his photo id, the item being sold is a two bitcent candybar... or he's buying some high value electronics over the net but you won't ship until tomorrow (and can check the transaction).... or he's purchasing a VPS service and you can shut him down if the transaction doesn't go through.  But in all cases a zero confirm transaction is itself a risk, if the entire trade isn't a risk its only because things external to the transaction moot the risk.

FWIW, I hope no one that had to learn this from reading this thread is running a large pool…  

I also don't think that twiddling up your minimum fee levels is likely to increase the fees that most transactions pay… at least not in any way proportional to the confusion and irritation users suffer if they found their transactions taking unexpectedly long to confirm (and the danger to the value of the coins you're mining created by scaring users away with fee policy that feels like terrorism to someone who doesn't understand it).

A first step in driving up transaction fees would be helping to improve network behavior and wallet software so that replacing a transaction with a too low fee is painless and doesn't leave users feeling like they've been assaulted by an invisible force.

Double spends are not always malicious.

In a balance based system:

Alice has 2.1 BTC.
Alice pays Bob 1 BTC.
Alice pays Carol 1 BTC.

The transactions are taking a long time to confirm because Alice did not include a fee. Four hours later Bob is angry and threatening to cancel the deal.

Alice rewrites Bob's transaction, this time including a transaction fee.  Then bob gets paid twice and carol doesn't get paid.  Bitcoin has no such problem, and you can productively use non-malicious double spends to create intentionally mutually exclusive transactions to positive effect... both for replacements, as in this example, and also in more complex protocols (like auctions).

Etc.  You end up having to to obnoxious things like basically emulating a non-balance system with most coins sent to distinct addresses and never accepting a payment from an address that has another outgoing payment... or the likewise to close these holes. The net net is something which is more complicated and has the overhead of maintaining balance indexes as well as still tracking individual coins.  I'm sure they could all be closed, but it's tricky and it doesn't appear that you usefully get anything out of it, except now that privacy takes an even more concerted effort to maintain.

This might functionally result in reaching the same conclusion in this case, but it still sounds like your understanding is incomplete.

In no place does Bitcoin have or maintain a balance. It doesn't even really have any concept of addresses (except in the front end wallet software) transaction outputs just list rules which must be satisfied to consume them.   A transaction selects outputs by txid:vout and satisfies their rules. Nowhere is the prior coin's to 'address' repeated in the spending transaction. Every coin is distinct, identified by its output index and the txid that created it. Every transaction names the coins which it is consuming and the txid:vout is the only specification of what coins are being spent. Every coin is consumed completely.

This would be a somewhat pointless restriction at the network level.  If users want to leak their private keys they are free to do this in many ways and it cannot be prevented.  The interesting case is when someone sends a second payment (perhaps at the same time as a first) to the same scriptPubKey requiring two signatures. Your rule would not prevent this, but a simple merkle signature scheme would remove this bit of brittleness without unduly constraining users or slowing transaction processing by requiring more database queries to check for admissible transactions.

(oh how I'd love to reject sending change to yourself today so that ignorance client authors couldn't crap so easily over the privacy of all Bitcoin users and the fungibility of Bitcoin as a side effect, but alas, this is now politically impossible.  ... but my point here is that it would kinda be a pointless security improvement in anycase. The possibility of payments strongly encourages the use of merkle signatures...)


Bitcoin does NOT use the NIST P-256 curve. Please spend a moment of your time researching before spreading FUD, especially FUD magnified by language like "the gravity of this post". Remember the story of chicken little.

The curve we use has its parameters fixed by performance considerations, similar to the construction of the curve used by Ed25519 (though not quite identical performance considerations) and is not one of the NIST curves.

I was responding specifically to your comment about lamport signature reuse. A single duplicated spend for a lamport key reduces the effective key-size by half on average (and you can reduce this somewhat with modest computation by choosing a pair of messages which have a minimum hamming distance), which is not great, but you're generally only concerned with the exposure between the time you spend and the time your transaction is buried in the chain.

Though you're likely exaggerating the risk in the ECDSA case, "if there exists" is not sufficient. Even ignoring the (probably enormous) overhead of the required error correction, solving a 256 bit discrete log problem on a QC requires a QC with thousands of bits of state to perform billions of operations. To perform any attack at all you must not have a unicorn"QC" but a rather large one and because the exposure time (assuming keys are not being reused) is only however long it takes to get a transaction mined, the window of your attack is somewhat limited.

In any case, Bitcoin was designed to be forward adaptive and new signature cryptosystems could be deployed very rapidly and completely compatibly with existing software.

This is more uninformed confusion. Lamport/merkle signatures can have compact (e.g. 256 bit) public keys just fine, and an implementation of hash based checksig in Bitcoin is under 500 lines of code. Because of the possibility of tree compression to reduce pubkey and signature size public keys for lamport signatures would always be handled this way by anyone that cares at all about bandwidth.

Nothing in the design inhibits the usage of lamport or other post-quantum signature systems in the slightest, except that the system is predicated on a trustless globally visible consensus model, which means that the storage and bandwidth costs of transactions is very important, and thus larger transactions mean a corresponding reduction in capacity.

Balances have basically no bearing on this, and a balance based bitcoin would have far less than the already paper thin privacy of the current system.

It doesn't sound legitimate at all. It sounds like the writing of someone who doesn't even have a basic understanding of the problem space.

It ignores the existence of sybils, assuming that an attacker is confined to appear to be a single peer to the whole network. This is crazy, If not for sybils there would be no need for mining at all you could just have nodes produce blocks round-robbin or just directly sense a majority of nodes for consensus.

Even the false assumption that sybils don't exist isn't enough for this scheme, as it requires (see the last page) a centrally announced "checkpoint" to make the protection reliable as nodes enter and leave the network.  Moreover, it doesn't describe how it's mechanism wouldn't falsely partition the network in the event that some kind of topology disruption resulted in the network having a small min-cut (e.g. fiber cuts between continents), this wasn't adequate explained but many proposals along these lines in the past have resulted in schemes which would never re-converge again after a modest partitioning: from one currency two result, and all coins can be spent twice (one in each side).

This isn't true, it's just how it is today. It's perfectly possible to pool for payment without pooling for consensus.

E.g. Pool gives you a coinbase transaction. You attempt to mine blocks including that coinbase, according to whatever policy you think is correct. You return shares to the pool and are credited according to what you submit.  The pool doesn't strictly need to even check the validity of your solutions, excepting that they include the right coinbase payments, since at worse mining invalid blocks is equal to a withholding attack which cannot be prevented in Bitcoin today... though checking might help guard against misconfiguration.

P2Pool is a somewhat extreme version of this, where the coinbase source is itself a distributed system which uses a kind of genesisless blockchain to track payouts... but coinbase mining would work just fine in the model and payment schemes of today's centralized pools without undermining the security of Bitcoin.  That just isn't what people built, ... for some reason no one thought of it this way three years ago. If they had the world might be a very different place today.

Taking this back on-topic, the idea here would break all forms of pooling, including the consensus-harmless "pool for income". Arguably that solves all the ills resulting from pooling but perhaps its a heavy hammer.  There is an argument that excessive variance also rewards consolation: the variance of mining substantially goes away if you personally own 2% of all the hashpower.

To correct this ignorance please start by reading the Bitcoin whitepaper: http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

and erase from your mind the memory of any block explorer, as they're misleading.

It sounds as though you believe the Bitcoin system tracks balances. This is a common misunderstanding created by the cooked interfaces shown in popular block explorers. The backend system in bitcoin has no concept of a balance and basically no concept of an address even.

Bitcoin tracks atomic coins (transaction outputs). Each coin is unique and can only ever be spent once. A replay of a transaction would just be invalid because the coin it spent has already been consumed.

Systems based on balances have many complicated race conditions far beyond the problem of a simple spend replay.

A merkle signature system can have arbitrary reuse levels with constant size public keys and either linear increases in generation time and log increases in signature size, or log increases in generation time and polylogarithmic increases in signature size.

Besides, lamport signatures don't lose all their security at once, the fact that the blockchain looks like a guy fawkes signature system itself means that short term somewhat fragile signatures are probably pretty harmless.

Allowing multiple outputs is deeply fundamental to the system, a point which is more obvious once you're not under the impression that Bitcoin keeps balances: spending consumes the inputs completely, so multiple outputs are required in order to receive your change.

The use of new addresses for change is important because the privacy of the system is paper thin and rests entirely on the weak pseudo-anonymity of using a unique address for every transaction.  If addresses are reused a party analyzing the highly public transaction log can trivially reach conclusions about who owns what.  Few people would want to use a system where their barresta can see their paycheck and their grandkid crazy nosy in-laws can see them buying contraception.

A lot of pools have been DDOSed lately, including ones like Bitparking which aren't even that big.

Any speculation as to whats funding these attacks?

I've heard that after the panel some of the panelists got clue sticked with "FUNGIBLITY! DO YOU SPEAK IT?" and have since reconsidered their positions somewhat.

LOL. The address has nothing to do with anything. You're allowing yourself to get worked up about minor bugs in software you don't understand. Please try to relax.

Correct.

We have that, thats what gitian is for.

Sort of unfortunate to see it using rpi ... they've been pretty unreliable historically. Then again, the little wrt routers in the avalons haven't been especially robust either.  If the connectivity to the rpi is USB hopefully it'll be possible to replace the rpi with something more reliable.

So do I.  But only 1.5% of the hashpower does, this leaves me pretty comfortable saying that no one cares.