But really, I just want to see someone TRY to track another person's activity to see how feasible it is.
It's not an issue of feasibility, tracking an address's trades are certainly feasible. The question is resources. An entity with unlimited human resources could track down the payments of a person, but there isn't a way to do this without human intervention. The data just doesn't exist to automaticly tie an address to a human being, although that might be made easier using data mining techniques. For example, in a normal transaction a human being would be able to look at the transaction and guess that the smaller of the two outputs is the change, but a computer program doing the same thing is going to be unreliable. The idea that all of the addresses in bitcoin can be traced back to an individual real identity is rediculous because that would literally require limitless human resources, primarily in the form of trained detectives doing classical detective work. That's simply impossible, and that is why bitcoin is as anonymous as the user is willing|able to be. Anonimity is inconvient, and most people don't need that much of it. Bitcoin doesn't really promise anominity, it just makes it possible. I think it would be absurd to make the assumption that the smaller of the two is change. For instance: - I used to mine with deepbit, and when I did, I took payouts of 10BTC or more. - I have payed other people 10 payments of 0.25 BTC, and 12-15 payments of 0.10 BTC or less. - In each of those instances, my change would have been far greater than the sum sent out. How else would it be feasible to figure out which address is change and which address is not? Your entire argument that all transactions for a person are traceable seems to hinge on the fact that you can figure out what is change and what is not, but as it stands, I just don't see how that is possible. You could use a bunch of guesswork, and perhaps get lucky if the person sent to another publicized address (i.e., I donated to a given cause, then they would know which address was change), but other than that, I just don't see how tracing a person's transactions is really possible. Maybe I did not clearly express myself. I'm trying to say that the keys in your wallet are made up of lots of transactions which sometimes combines keys that you would like to hide with keys that you would like to keep secret - effectively linking the two keys and if, as stated before: "given enough of your key transfers and some (even the slightest) transparency into the real/traceable online world from you or any of your wallet's key transfer's counter parties" the above quoted phrase might reveal your identity. |
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Sure, you can see all the trade history.
For example, you can say he received 20BTC from account 1MwEJr2F2d3bfuvn4Pdx5PpsgkZZ3eyXRK.
However, if you don't know who's using this account, what can you do with this info?
But why should they (illegal activities overlords) use bitcoin instead of normal money/banks? I just can't see why they should use it instead of normal money. Although normal money also usually money laundering. EDIT: Now that I think about it, maybe a good thing is that if they have money in their bitcoin accounts, no one can stop them from using it. Maybe the CIA designed bitcoin and tricked them into believing that it is actually anonymous? And now they can trace them through the blockchain because the user were technically trustworthy/ignorant to check out the software before using it for their illegitimate activities.  |
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But really, I just want to see someone TRY to track another person's activity to see how feasible it is.
It's not an issue of feasibility, tracking an address's trades are certainly feasible. The question is resources. An entity with unlimited human resources could track down the payments of a person, but there isn't a way to do this without human intervention. The data just doesn't exist to automaticly tie an address to a human being, although that might be made easier using data mining techniques. For example, in a normal transaction a human being would be able to look at the transaction and guess that the smaller of the two outputs is the change, but a computer program doing the same thing is going to be unreliable. The idea that all of the addresses in bitcoin can be traced back to an individual real identity is rediculous because that would literally require limitless human resources, primarily in the form of trained detectives doing classical detective work. That's simply impossible, and that is why bitcoin is as anonymous as the user is willing|able to be. Anonimity is inconvient, and most people don't need that much of it. Bitcoin doesn't really promise anominity, it just makes it possible. |
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So you could potentially link two addresses together because they were included in the same transaction, but without knowing which of the addresses is the "change" address, how would you know how much I actually sent out and how much I kept for myself?
Checkout http://blockexplorer.com/ type in some of your recent destination addresses and click on the keys in the table to explore. |
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Oxford dictionary's definition of currency is http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/currency?view=uk . noun (plural currencies) * 1 a system of money in general use in a particular country:the dollar was a strong currency[mass noun] :travellers cheques in foreign currency * 2 [mass noun] the fact or quality of being generally accepted or in use:the term gained wider currency after the turn of the century * the time during which something is in use or operation:no claim had been made during the currency of the policy Its not correct to call a global digital accounting system a currency. Just like gold is physical proof of atom ownership, Bitcoin is a right to digital proof of ownership of a solution to a complex mathematical problem. Bitcoin is not anonymous as well, there's a publicly available blockchain recording every transfer. So yes, bitcoin.org need to change its description of bitcoin. Isn't it more like digital rights to cryptographic key certificates which can be transfered, bartered, bought or sold? But then would the general public have a knowledgable buzz word for that? So would it be technically not a currency, but more like a very unique, secure, valuable baseball card? Wiktionary: 1. Money or other item used to facilitate transactions. 2. Paper money 3. A countable unit which symbolizes real value 4. Acceptance or use (e.g. "The jargon's currency") 5. The state of being current bitcoins qualify under #1, arguably as an extension of #2, and probably under #3 (depending on what "real value" means)... the other two definitions aren't really relevant to monetary issues. 1. In which currency do you measure your money? 2. In which currency do you hold your paper money? 3. In which currency are you counting your value? 4. Which currency are you accepting? 5. In which currency are you current? I would rather go with: A SYSTEM of money in GENERAL use in a PARTICULAR COUNTRY Otherwise all goods/services that can be bartered in any economy becomes currency as well. The Roman empire used to give salt to their subjects as salary (salt -> salary). Are you worth your salt, or are you worth your weight in gold?  Salt used to be traded equally in their weight for gold in Timbaktu as it was scarce and vital to the preservation of food. The Romans however still had their currency coins with Caesar's head on it. |
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What happens during the night/winter?
And why couldn't the Fed just block IP/DNS to the server? They're trying to enact a law to make it legal to do so, and if they do, then all the major ISPs would be forced to block any sites the government asks them to. They could probably do it right now anyway under some "threat to the US" act.
Is Bitcoin worrying you or are you busy with some illegal stuff? Are you buying rights of ownership to DIGITAL CRYPTOGRAPHIC KEY CERTIFICATES on a very secure network employing a very capital intensive group of machines to keep it that secure? A network effectively rendering a very efficient, fluid, secure book keeping system. It is not as anonymous as some people think. Their is a block chain recording each and every transaction. Cash laundering and bitcoin laundering is illegal. Laundering is not a standard feature of the bitcoin network. You would easily be able to prove where you got your bitcoins from by utilising the blockchain. And remember to pay your taxes this year if you profit from any barter transactions in bitcoin. If bitcoins are so publicly traceable, I dare you to try to find my current wallet balance. Or at least, take your best educated guess at it. I do have a couple of publicly-available bitcoin addresses, so what else can you tell about my bitcoining activity from information you can find? With enough time (which I do not want to spend on your dare) and effort (which I would put in something more positive) and resources (which law enforcement agencies do not have a shortage of), your challenge will be met - given enough of your key transfers and some (even the slightest) transparency into the real/traceable online world from you or any of your wallet's key transfer's counter parties. Sometimes your keys combine to make up for a larger amount and the difference from the intended value to transfer gets issued to a new key that you just maybe spent to someone transparent, and voilla! questions asked to this transparent person of how some known illegal money spent on btc transfered to you and then to the transparent person renders your identity from the interrogation maybe. Good luck, it seems like you would have a lot of tracks to cover - is it worth the effort for the average joe who will just prove his innocence by utilising the blockchain. Even if its not a requirement in your jurisdiction to prove your own innocence, your reluctance to do so might be a dead give away warranting investigation. |
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Oxford dictionary's definition of currency is http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/currency?view=uk . noun (plural currencies) * 1 a system of money in general use in a particular country:the dollar was a strong currency[mass noun] :travellers cheques in foreign currency * 2 [mass noun] the fact or quality of being generally accepted or in use:the term gained wider currency after the turn of the century * the time during which something is in use or operation:no claim had been made during the currency of the policy Its not correct to call a global digital accounting system a currency. Just like gold is physical proof of atom ownership, Bitcoin is a right to digital proof of ownership of a solution to a complex mathematical problem. Bitcoin is not anonymous as well, there's a publicly available blockchain recording every transfer. So yes, bitcoin.org need to change its description of bitcoin. Isn't it more like digital rights to cryptographic key certificates which can be transfered, bartered, bought or sold? But then would the general public have a knowledgable buzz word for that? So would it be technically not a currency, but more like a very unique, secure, valuable baseball card? |
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The argument that 'every transaction is in a public log' therefore criminals can be tracked is ridiculous. Anyone with enough sense to use bitcoin who wants to cover their tracks can easily use mtgox/mybitcoin other ewallet providers as mixing agents and end up with 'clean' coins (assuming they received 'dirty' ones from a Justice department sting operation trying to trace them or something).
Check mybitcoin.com 's terms of use. They keep extensive records and will be sharing it with whomever if legally ordered. Yes, if legally ordered by a court in New Zealand. How responsive NZ's legal system to the want's and needs of other nations remains to be seen. Well then the legalized framework is in place for that aspect through international treaties. |
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The argument that 'every transaction is in a public log' therefore criminals can be tracked is ridiculous. Anyone with enough sense to use bitcoin who wants to cover their tracks can easily use mtgox/mybitcoin other ewallet providers as mixing agents and end up with 'clean' coins (assuming they received 'dirty' ones from a Justice department sting operation trying to trace them or something).
Check mybitcoin.com 's terms of use. They keep extensive records and will be sharing it with whomever if legally ordered. Laundering bitcoin is not an inherent feature of bitcoin. It is a willful act. Laundering bitcoin or cash is illegal. You will however easily be able to proof where you got your bitcoins from through the publicly available transparent blockchain. Buying digital goods and services is not always illegal. Depends on what it is. May Bitcoin DIGITAL RIGHTS TO CRYPTOGRAPHIC KEY CERTIFICATES (backed by a capital intensive network of machines securing this) be transferred, bartered, bought or sold? Is there some law forbidding this? |
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What happens during the night/winter?
And why couldn't the Fed just block IP/DNS to the server? They're trying to enact a law to make it legal to do so, and if they do, then all the major ISPs would be forced to block any sites the government asks them to. They could probably do it right now anyway under some "threat to the US" act.
Is Bitcoin worrying you or are you busy with some illegal stuff? Are you buying rights of ownership to DIGITAL CRYPTOGRAPHIC KEY CERTIFICATES on a very secure network employing a very capital intensive group of machines to keep it that secure? A network effectively rendering a very efficient, fluid, secure book keeping system. It is not as anonymous as some people think. Their is a block chain recording each and every transaction. Cash laundering and bitcoin laundering is illegal. Laundering is not a standard feature of the bitcoin network. You would easily be able to prove where you got your bitcoins from by utilising the blockchain. And remember to pay your taxes this year if you profit from any barter transactions in bitcoin. |
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Sitting with the capital investment anyway - with running electricity costs only a small fraction of the total hardware costs - I would say that it would be best to stay mining with an outlook of a better future price. And also buying at the lower cost with easier profits due to probable lower difficulty and lower network hash due to other miners dropping out, but not letting the capital go idle.
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This would be nice if people can use it in this way:
Typical joe/jane: I can't wait for a facebook application that allows me to transfer to my friend with my blackberry with btc's to make up for my share of the bill at the restaurant. The app writer, as well as the person who referred me to this convenient method to transfer btc's to my friend can take a small fee on the transaction - as well. I'm not interested in running a client - because i don't even mine on my blackberry. I just want to give to my friends sometimes, easily on facebook with no complicated addresses - just want to click on their facebook names please and add number of bitcoins!!!
Joe now likes Jane
Joe sent Jane 0.3 bitcoins
Jane poke Joe
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Why would the Fed shut down an account? Bitcoins are traceable through the blockchain. Unless you are laundering that is, bitcoins or cash. Laundering is illegal, be that bitcoins or cash. You should be able to proof easy enough from the blockchain where you got your bitcoins from.
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Typical joe/jane: I can't wait for a facebook application that allows me to transfer to my friend with my blackberry with btc's to make up for my share of the bill at the restaurant. The app writer, as well as the person who referred me to this convenient method to transfer btc's to my friend can take a small fee on the transaction - as well. I'm not interested in running a client - because i don't even mine on my blackberry. I just want to give to my friends sometimes, easily on facebook with no complicated addresses - just want to click on their facebook names please and add number of bitcoins!!!
Joe now likes Jane
Joe sent Jane 0.3 bitcoins
Jane poke Joe
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thanks for fixing magicaltux
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Can some moderator moderate this please. Remove will be nice - these people are getting a platform right on top of the forum topics.
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Does mybitcoin.com have a standalone application not requiring web addresses to be entered/browse? I know you can associate an address with a name on mybitcoin.com easily. Accessing it through a browser is a bit of a hurdle for the lazy folks out there - but I suppose you can create a shortcut link to there website address - but then most non-technical people don't bother with that either. I like the idea of integrating into facebook. Most ordinary people know how to access facebook and its app plug-ins. facebook can be accessed from most devices. The bitcoin app plug-in for facebook however does not seem to exist?
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That's for the technically inclined - the average iphone user will just want to click on their friends name (like dialing him to phone him), choose or type a quick amount and press send. No addresses, mining, etc. etc. Just balance, transfer thats it. |
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I would rather get the facebook users in another way rather than go through facebook.
How would you propose going about if they are an audience to the facebook platform? |
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