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1461  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Bribery: The Double Double Spend on: November 08, 2012, 06:39:29 PM
If you want to reduce the difficulty, but still keep a functioning system, what are your options?
Already explained on my previous post. You kill competition among miners through subsidized ASIC and you have what you want.

Bitcoin community is too much focuced on open source software but open source hardware is equally important for the bitcoin network. What about donating to a bitcoin specific ASIC project on OpenCores.org?

Not explained at all, merely stated.  Adding subsidized ASICs to the mix will increase difficulty, at least until the point that everyone stops using the system entirely, at which point the only person left mining is the subsidizer, and he can set the difficulty to whatever low value he wants, but, and this part is critical, but no one cares because no one else is using it.

As for opencores, go for it.  I'm totally in favor of more designs and cheaper chips.  Considering that we are (probably, heh) going to go from zero publicly available ASIC designs to at least three in the next 12 months, I wouldn't say that open hardware is critical here, but it is always desired and appreciated.
1462  Economy / Economics / Re: A Resource Based Economy on: November 08, 2012, 06:33:07 PM
Now I'm confused.  You posted a link to a state that existed from 930 to 1262 as evidence of the viability of a system invented by a guy born in 1819.  Did Gustave invent anarcho-capitalism, or the time machine?
I'd expect better respect for freedom from someone with "Amagi" as their user pic... You said that running defense and justice on the free market had never been tested. I showed you when it had. Worked for even longer than the republics that have been tested so far. Gustave de Molinari simply put that together with ideas from his contemporaries, and came to the quite reasonable conclusion that if a monopoly is bad in one sector of the economy, it's bad in every sector. Market competition ensures fairness in the pricing and dispensation of produce, and it will (and has) ensured fairness in the pricing and dispensation of protection and justice.

Meh.  50,000 (very homogenous) people on an island is hardly a test.  Proof of concept, maybe.  Also, see here.

And most of his detractors don't take his assumptions on faith.  Justice and defense aren't necessarily "sectors of the economy".

Just one example, in the USA the justice system is creaky and inefficient by design because a group of people were horrified by the efficient systems they had seen elsewhere in the world.  It is a price that they (and we) were willing to pay.  It may be possible for a market to produce the same or better outcome for less cost, but it is not at all obvious.
1463  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Bribery: The Double Double Spend on: November 08, 2012, 06:12:53 PM
What mechanism would they use to lower the network speed?  It is very easy to add mining incentives, but impossible to reduce them. 

Firstly, it is not that easy to ad mining incentives if you pay in BTC. And secondly, it is not that difficult to reduce network speed if you have unlimited access to USD or EUR. You raise the network difficulty through cheap subsidized ASICS and when independent miners gave up the entire network is yours. After all ASICS manufacturers are paying dollars to produce them.

Yawn.  If you want to destroy bitcoin, it would be cheaper to round up all of the miners and shoot them.  If you want to reduce the difficulty, but still keep a functioning system, what are your options?

My apologies, I had taken the total destruction option to be an assumed, but uninteresting, path.
1464  Economy / Economics / Re: A Resource Based Economy on: November 08, 2012, 04:34:12 PM

Now I'm confused.  You posted a link to a state that existed from 930 to 1262 as evidence of the viability of a system invented by a guy born in 1819.  Did Gustave invent anarcho-capitalism, or the time machine?

At any rate, Iceland as a whole has never had more population than a small city, so it is hard to draw conclusions that would scale up to the size of the Roman, Venetian or American republics.
1465  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Bribery: The Double Double Spend on: November 08, 2012, 04:20:17 PM
I don't think you understood what he is proposing.  He is saying that if the current network speed is acceptable to most people, but a few people would like it higher for their own reasons (whatever those reasons are), they have a mechanism to pay for that extra speed without changing the system.
I don't think this makes much sense. It is just the opposite what OP is about. It is the same as - if the current network speed is acceptable to most people, but a few people would like it lower for their own reasons (whatever those reasons are), they have a mechanism to pay for that extra low speed without changing the system - and then launch an attack!

So I suggest first group will pay / bribe in BTC while the second one will pay / bribe in USD or EUR?

What mechanism would they use to lower the network speed?  It is very easy to add mining incentives, but impossible to reduce them.  There are no anti-fees that you can put in a transaction to lower the reward for mining.

The OP proposes a scheme that he thinks will break the system, but he hasn't ever done a proper accounting of the costs, risk and rewards for all of the parties at each step along the way.  His conclusion is based on shitty bookkeeping, and a desire to find a way, any way, for his prejudgment about proof-of-work to be right.
1466  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Lowest block hash? on: November 08, 2012, 04:14:46 PM

Is it possible to know what produced the lowest hash? i.e. f(x) --> lowest hash. What is f(x)?

f(x) is SHA256(SHA256(x)) and x is the block header.
1467  Economy / Economics / Re: A Resource Based Economy on: November 08, 2012, 04:09:46 PM
They still thought it was the best option...

And about 70-odd years later, Gustave de Molinari came up with a better one.

Meh.  Untested conjecture.

I'm not opposed to the idea of anarcho-capitalism, and if it worked, I'd probably even prefer it.

But I do know that a Republic works, for as long as the people value it, generally at least a few hundred years, and it has a track record of not failing in the direction of apocalypse.
1468  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Bribery: The Double Double Spend on: November 08, 2012, 03:25:14 PM

A group of people or companies want network speeds to be higher. However, none wants to be the sucker who pays for all the others.

They broadcast an assurance contract on a separate p2p network with a pledge from themselves.
This is not a wise approach. What you generally suggest is a second network to support bitcoin network, a network of insurers. This would be bitcoin level 2 network. And who will insure the insurers? May be a group of people or companies on a third p2p network, a bitcoin level 3 network?

I don't think you understood what he is proposing.  He is saying that if the current network speed is acceptable to most people, but a few people would like it higher for their own reasons (whatever those reasons are), they have a mechanism to pay for that extra speed without changing the system.
1469  Economy / Economics / Re: A Resource Based Economy on: November 08, 2012, 03:20:26 PM

Adding "techno-" to a failed system does not magically make it work.


Isn't this sort of what Washington and those colonial fruits did with the democracy of the ancient greeks/romans?  But I'll give this to you:  If that's the case, it sure is NOT very reassuring.

This was not a techno-republic.  (Side note, you said democracy, which is wrong, the founder rejected that system intentionally.)

The founders were keenly aware that they were making a temporary thing.  They were all serious students of history, and they knew damn well how and why Republics died.  From Athens and Sparta through Rome to Vienna, they knew that every Republic eventually commits suicide.  The collapse of the Venetian Republic was an ongoing event while they were drafting the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, and it was well known to the founders.

They still thought it was the best option, and plenty of us still agree today.  Some of us even stick around watching the suicide in progress, saying "Not today!".
1470  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Lowest block hash? on: November 08, 2012, 12:24:51 PM
00000000000000000ae2dba9951e28a3e6308ac7e9e8536104c503aa772c848f

Found 2 days ago, and would have beaten a difficulty of 100999279974...
I thought that hash consisting from more than half of zeroes would be accidentally found by now.

2128 is an absurdly large number.  I did the math a couple of months ago, and at that time I think I had figured out that the bitcoin project has managed to do about 268 hashes in 4 years.  That is actually pretty consistent with this lowest hash.
1471  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Thought experiment on security design of bitcoin protocol on: November 08, 2012, 12:18:11 PM
I think the existence of forged SSL certs that exploit MD5 collisions means that the possibility of two different valid transactions that hash to the same value isn't impossible. We already know what happens in that case - the code gets confused and can be exploited (we saw it with the coinbase duplication issue).

Quote from: Bob Jueneman, IETF-PKIX
There is nothing in any of these standards that would prevent me from including 1 gigabit
 MPEG movie of me playing with my cat as one of the RDN components of the DN in my certificate

SSL cert signing requests have no consistent structure beyond some very loose guidelines that vary a bit from CA to CA.  If you were trying to design a data format that was intentionally vulnerable to hash collision attacks, I doubt you could do a better job.
1472  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: bitcoind hang on 'move' command (solved) on: November 07, 2012, 08:38:36 PM
Heh.  I had the exact same problem with 0.7.0 and it hasn't happened to me since I moved up to 0.7.1.
1473  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Get the address sent from on: November 07, 2012, 08:36:47 PM
How do I send back coins like satosh dice?

You were already given the answer both in general terms and with the exact RPC call?  I mean kjj gave you exactly the answer you were asking for (even though it is advised not to use it)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=122220.msg1322012#msg1322012


Bitcoin .NET C# doesn't contain these functions.

Ahh, I think you might need to do some reading on what the RPC API is, and how to use it.  I suggest starting with the link I posted earlier.

Are you wondering how to use the RPC service from .net?
1474  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Bitcoin 0.7.x won't synchronise past block 206457 on: November 07, 2012, 02:05:14 PM
If you suspect that the database index is corrupt (blkindex.dat in the bitcoin data directory), it can be deleted, the blockchain files blk0001.dat and blk0002.dat moved out of the data directory (like to the root of C: drive) and then the blocks can be re-imported from these original blockchain files:

bitcoin-qt -loadblock=c:\blk0001.dat -loadblock=c:\blk0002.dat

Highlighted for emphasis.  If you don't do this step, you'll end up with with a bit of a mess.
1475  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Get the address sent from on: November 07, 2012, 02:03:18 PM
The answers are in this thread already.  What are you having problems with?

Are you wondering how to use the RPC service from .net?

Yes, I am wondering what calls to make.

The Raw Transactions API will give you this info.

Filter the results of listunspent for the output address to learn the transaction ids.  Then get each transaction and pull the first input for each.

use:
getrawtransaction
then for the output of that,
decoderawtransaction

 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Raw_Transactions
1476  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Get the address sent from on: November 07, 2012, 12:18:34 PM
The answers are in this thread already.  What are you having problems with?

Are you wondering how to use the RPC service from .net?
1477  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Whats the command to ping my Bitcoin node to send me X amount of blocks? on: November 06, 2012, 09:32:47 PM
To use the p2p protocol to spew blocks, you'll have to implement a fair chunk of the protocol; enough to convince your node that it is talking to another node.

If you just want to see the blocks, parsing the block files is super easy.  The only catch is that you'll need to build your own index as you go.  The satoshi client keeps an index, but it is in the BDB system, and interfacing with that is probably much more work than doing it yourself.
1478  Economy / Goods / Re: NEFT Vodka and Bitcoin on: November 06, 2012, 05:41:56 AM
As far as I can tell, mailing booze is bad, but causing booze to be sent to you from overseas isn't a big deal.

As in, you are liable for the import duty, which is under $1.00/litre, and (worse) if they notice that it is booze, they'll halt it wherever it is and give you the option of abandonment or having another (non-USPS) carrier pick it up and finish delivery.  $$$
1479  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Hashes : Solved blocks ratio on: November 05, 2012, 11:49:03 PM
Since you don't want to talk about anything that might be of broad interest, like cryptography or statistics, I guess I'll just point you to the btcguild thread so that you can talk to eleuthria about his stats.
1480  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: ECB paper on Bitcoin and virtual currencies on: November 05, 2012, 08:25:42 PM
kjj, I think it's this part:

Quote
A commodity has full or partial fungibility; that is, the market treats its instances as equivalent or nearly so with no regard to who produced them.

Buy a fancy printer and try making your own "Federal Reserve Notes" and see how the market (and the cops) treat them.

You've never heard of a loan, have you?  When you take out a loan, your bank produces dollars that did not exist previously.  No one cares which bank produced the dollars in your checking account, and no one even knows.

It is only physical paper dollars that have monopolized production, and those are a tiny, tiny niche in the dollar economy.
Actually, I have heard of loans. Smiley The monetary base (Federal Reserve Notes and deposits) can only be created by the central bank. It's true that other banks can create checkbook money as debt and we call those IOUs "dollars," but note that you still have to be a member of "the club" to do so. ANYONE can make bitcoins and the coins they make aren't IOUs for the "real" money; they ARE the real money.

EDIT: And banks' ability to create checkbook money is (in theory) constrained by the size of the monetary base as a result of reserve requirements.

Meh.  Turn the world 90 degrees and paper dollars become bearer certificates (IOUs) for checkbook (real) money.  It is really hard to come up with an argument for one being more "real" than the other than wouldn't apply equally well from the other side.

And in reality, banks make loans first, and then seek reserves second.  The real limit to the money supply is the product of the creditworthiness of borrowers times their desire for loans.  The reserve requirements are impotent in terms of the money supply, that is they don't actually prevent any loans from happening, but they do sometimes reveal weaknesses in specific banks.

And yes, you do have to be a member of the club to "invent" money for loans, but it is a damn big club.  Technically, that distinguishes from "anyone".  I haven't checked, but I suspect that becoming an orange grower or pork belly farmer (or a producer of COMEX-able gold bars) is a harder club to join than banker.  (Cletus isn't parked outside the Chicago Mercantile Exchange building with a truck full of pigs waiting for his short to go to delivery, he operates through a co-op and a broker and inspectors and regulators and... )
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