 Show Posts
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 »
|
Looks very nice. Are silver coins always this expensive (~ $300, where the actual silver is worth ~ $40)? Do we have any guarantees that they didn't save the private key somewhere?
These are not expensive coins when you consider... They are very small editions...only 600 coins minted. They have high artistic value... there's nothing else out there that comes close to these. |
|
|
|
The premium is quite high for silver coins and they are not encrypted keys or multi-signature keys. How long have these been for sale?
I have five of the Adam Smith coins. There look very secure to me. The private key is engraved on the edge, and cannot be viewed without breaking the case open. I'm looking forward to getting some Joan of Arc coins. These are by far the finest physical bitcoins available, in my opinion. |
|
|
|
|
A part of me feels sorry for Mark Karpeles. However, his level of incompetence is criminal. How someone could be controlling that amount of money and not have adequate safeguards defies belief. I think of the many trusting individuals who lost fortunes, and it really saddens me. The fundamental problem with Mt. gox was, IMO, that they didn't deserve to be the exchange that they were. Bitcoin fell in their lap, and they rested on their laurels while they made millions of dollars.
|
|
|
|
|
I am very relieved that Mt Gox is out of the picture. I have been smelling corruption since around May of 2013. I'm sure glad I moved all 500 of my bitcoins out of there months ago. I feel really sorry for all those who have lost because of this tragedy.
Without Mt. Gox to further muddy the water, I think bitcoin will surge in the next few weeks.
|
|
|
|
Hi,
I'm wondering if the OP or someone from Alitin Mint can help me. I am failing to see how this is much of an improvement from tamper proof holograms. I am not trying to cause drama, I simply am wondering if I am thinking about it wrong. I know since I also make physical cryptocoins this will likely look like an attack of some sort, but I am genuinely worried about the security of your product and the claims you are making of how they are more secure than original physical Bitcoins with tamper proof holograms. I have spent many hours lately doing different experiments on how to improve security on the original design of physical Bitcoins, but I don't see this as a very good solution.
I think you guys protected the coin from the obvious... radiation techniques due to the engraved private key, but it seems to me the only line of defense against retrieving the private keys of these coins is the hologram on the coin case. Which as we know can likely be removed showing no to little signs using acetone, just like the older coins that you claim are inferior to yours. That defeats the whole sales pitch here.. minus the very attractive coin artwork. The process a bad actor could take is:
1. Have a replica of the plastic coin case made in China for $1-5 each
2. Remove the coin from the packaging and retrieve the private key from the edges of the coin.
3. Remove the hologram from the original coin case using acetone showing no to little signs of intrusion.
4. Print new labels, QR code, whatever is inside the coin case and put them in the new replica case.
5. Place the coin back in the replica coin case you had made and seal it.
6. Place the hologram on the coin case back where it should be like nothing happened.
I know Alitin says "you can send a picture by email and find out if it is counterfeit or not". However, I have a hard time believing that they do not do this by checking a certain security feature they added to their hologram. This is something that can be easily implemented in the old design of physical cryptocoins.. just a coin and a hologram.
I am just failing to see how this is any better. It would require a little more work to tamper with than a normal physical cryptocoin, but it is still doable IMO. Even at today's prices there is likely enough incentive (cost versus reward) to do this... imagine when Bitcoin really goes to the moon. Please prove me wrong, the reason for my post here today is purely academic and I wish Alitin Mint all the best. I hope I can make it to the Texas Bitcoin Conference to talk about this with you guys face to face and in depth. I only live a couple hours away so I think I can come.. I just have to see if I can get off work.
Thanks
I spoke with the CEO of Alitin Mint today. He explained that their biggest concern has been the ability for someone to open the case, steal the private key, and reseal the case. The case is virtually impossible to open without breaking, because the "braided seal" is stronger than the surrounding acrylic case. The second consideration is the possibility of a thief breaking the case open, stealing the private key, and replacing it with a new case. He said that in their attempts to break into the cases without destroying them, they almost always ended up marring either the insert, hologram or signature. The creation of a new case, at least in the US would cost at least $4,000 - $5,000 for the mold. I have some personal experience with plastic injection molding, and it not cheap. The case has the Alitin logo on it, and anyone making a copy would have to go to considerable effort to get it exact. I know it would be substantially cheaper in China, but a lot of their discounts are for large quantities of product. Either way, it would require considerable effort and expense to get a duplicate case. Even with a duplicate case, a thief would need to figure out how to duplicate that seal, which is unlike any I have seen. They said that it was a system they developed within their company, and they are not publishing how it is done. Finally, they have a proprietary cipher system that is three layers deep. They would not say what it is, because they think that if they divulged that information it would weaken their system. They just reassured me that they could definitely determine if a case was theirs vs a counterfeit. Maybe if you speak with them in Austin they will give you more info. The other question is whether or not the coins themselves could be counterfeited. That would be a big challenge. There are not very mints in the US that could make such a coin. If you took a coin like this to a mint and wanted to duplicate it, I doubt that any mint would for fear that they would be an accomplice to counterfeiting. They have strict protocols If you wanted to do it yourself, it would require substantial skill and many thousands of dollars of equipment to do so. I'm sure it's possible, but I doubt that any thief would go to such extraordinary measures. These coins are struck with dies and are not cast out of liquid silver. If someone tried to cast one, it would look a lot different than a struck coin. If you contrast this to the security of physical bitcoins with holograms, I think there is no comparison. It has been clearly demonstrated that solvents can lift off the hologram, and that it can be replaced with minimal effort and very minimal damage. Also, the coins themselves are generally much less complex in design and would, I suspect, be less challenging to counterfeit. I feel really good about the security of these coins...particularly by the cipher system that they have in place which they claim is practically bullet-proof. |
|
|
|
Has anyone cracked open a random one to see if it has the private key?
I'm sure some of these coins will be redeemed. If the private key isn't there, it will become public news pretty quick. Why does everyone trust Casascius coins? Since so many have redeemed, it is logical to assume that Mike Caldwell did defraud anyone. I bought an Adam Smith coin. I can tell you that this would be difficult to counterfeit, so the chain of custody is far less critical for resale than other physical bitcoins. Furthermore, making a custom made case such as they have would cost literally thousands of dollars for a mold...not to mention they have a very unique method of sealing the case that they haven't disclosed. Also, they have a proprietary cipher system for each case. This means than you can take a photo of the case and coin, email it to the company... And they can determine if its legitimate vs counterfeit. I seriously believe that if bitcoin reaches a value of $100,000, these coins would still be fairly safe from counterfeiting. |
|
|
|
Does any one do these any more as Mike has now stopped creating physical Bitcoin and where can I get them?
I recently purchase several Adam Smith coins from Alitin Mint. They are very high quality... The finest I've seen. I would highly recommend them to anyone interested in collecting physical bitcoins. Their website is alitinmint.com |
|
|
|
Hmm, this does look and sound like well designed products. I do have a few issues/questions that I have misgivings about though. *I'd like to hear some more info and opinions on the security of the engraved privkey, and also the results of attempts to read privkey off the coin rim without breaking the seal. Couple simple tests i can think of: Bouncing various ultrasonic/electromagnetic/light frequencies off the coin edge at various angles (and temperatures) to see if can get a readable image through the shielding material. Reading magnetism/diamagnetism around the coin edge (would a hdd head pickup anything for example?) Physically deforming the plastic or shielding itself to read past it. * The provided info here and on the website is lacking a lot of important information such as; any real technical details, any external references or info to backup the claims of compliance with regulations and licensing (as a money transmitter). So all were given to go on is their word. Being a highly skilled professional gynecologist myself, I'm often telling clients that they can trust me when i say I'm qualified. * Nowhere have a found mention of what country they are located-in/shipping-from, nor a single mention of international shipping info. I'm able to deduce that they are located in USA by using my advanced knowledge of international geographic locations to recognize some of the names given at ( https://www.alitinmint.com/alitinmint/Home/About ) [rant] And also by the fact that they don't seem to comprehend the Internet is worldwide (sorry), so advertising a product on the internet without providing this important country/shipping infomation is incompetent a best. Even slightly insulting that they did not even consider how seriously annoying it is for anyone (except own countrymen i guess), wasting a lot of my time. That said, USA is not the only culprit of failing to consider anyone past thier own patriotic ignorance, failing to provide required details on website (though by far the worst offender i'd say). I have seen sites from my home country and other international companies websites fail to clearly show locations and shipping info, though rarely have I been abl to find the locations country at all and any international shipping information at all. [/rant] So while the coin looks great astheticly, and the security could be acceptable if done correctly, theres no actual technical details provided to even speculate on security of physical coin, theres no references to prove any trust in the company and its claims at all, and whilst i dont care for reculatons complience and liscencing so much, i do care about the security of the key at manufacture, do they have a database with all the private keys on the coins whcih they will steal when it suits them? Wll the lackingl details and narrowminded incompetencies of the website don't seem very preffesional, and that says a lot more than a pretty coin and plastic case does to me. The coin/case does look very well designed and thoughtout though, i'd prolly still pickup one myself, just to test myself which would likely end in breaking it open and transfering coins out for sience (or for security if needed). With all due respect, I'm surprised that a "professional gynecologist" would be actually think that any ultrasonic or electromagnetic detection device would be capable of deciphering a private key engraved on the edge of a coin. Given the fact that you can't even determine the gender of a fetus before 17 weeks, what makes you think that ultrasound could read an engraving only 2 or 3 thousandths on an inch deep on a curved metallic surface? As far as the location of Alitin Mint... They are headquartered in Springfield, Missouri...it's on the website. I didn't see anything about international shipping, though. Maybe they should document of their website that they have a money transmitter license...I know that Richard Forsyth did say on this thread that they are fully licensed. If you google "Alitin Mint", I think you can see that they are licensed. That should be a comfort to those who are skeptical of an unknown company, because they must have invested significant resources to obtain licensure. |
|
|
|
|
That is a very impressive coin...by far the highest quality I've seen.
|
|
|
|
|
These are the only physical bitcoins I've ever purchased. (should receive them any day) I love the fact that they've got quality art as well as collectible value. ...and the case really does look tamper proof.
|
|
|
|
Not sure if I would ever claim that something is "Tamper-proof" as nothing is tamper-proof if attackers are given enough time and resources to find ways around security mechanisms. Other than that this is an interesting concept/project.  There are certainly levels of tamper-resistance, and I think these coins appear far more tamper resistant than any other physical bitcoins out there. First, if the cases cannot be entered without breaking them, then the crook must somehow manufacture his own identical cases... That is, to say the least, an expensive proposition. Second, if entering the case destroys the hologram and the signature and the hologram, then two additional barriers are introduced. Third, the coins themselves are of moderately complex design...and would be far more difficult to counterfeit than most physical bitcoins. Finally, even if a thief successfully counterfeited a case, Alitin Mint claims to have a proprietary cipher system in place where they can verify if a case is legitimate. The only other physical bitcoin out there that appears this secure seems to be titan bitcoin. The only drawback is that [it is my understanding] you have to concede actual ownership of the bitcoins to a third party until they are redeemed. Keep in mind that there are other methods of "gaining access" to something without actually opening the container. Ever heard of ultrasound as one simple example? Your second point I am not sure I follow. You say "if" but I'm not sure I read that that is what happens when opening the case. Your third point is concerning counterfeit coins. Tampering and counterfeiting coins are two separate topics. Your last point are just claims. I'm not saying any of the claims aren't true, but until it has been proven to be true as in the claim about the case being "tamper-proof" and the comment the radiologist made concerning current technology, are simply just that, claims without proof publicly given. Hopefully someone can give these coins a test to different tampering mechanisms to prove or disprove said claims. As I've said, talk is cheap. My second point... You are correct... I'm supposing that you can't enter the case without destroying the hologram and signature. I think it's up to a skeptic to prove that something is out there that can image an etched engraving on metal. I can tell you that I am almost certain that no conventional medical imaging equipment could obtain an engraved private key off of a silver coin. In the first place, metal interferes with CT and MRI imaging. Secondly, the engraving is on a curved surface, so any imaging would require thousands of slices. Thirdly, no medical imaging devices are even close to that precise as far as resolution is concerned. If you are aware of any device that could achieve such resolution, I would be interested to know what it is and how expensive it would be. |
|
|
|
Not sure if I would ever claim that something is "Tamper-proof" as nothing is tamper-proof if attackers are given enough time and resources to find ways around security mechanisms. Other than that this is an interesting concept/project. There are certainly levels of tamper-resistance, and I think these coins appear far more tamper resistant than any other physical bitcoins out there. First, if the cases cannot be entered without breaking them, then the crook must somehow manufacture his own identical cases... That is, to say the least, an expensive proposition. Second, if entering the case destroys the hologram and the signature and the hologram, then two additional barriers are introduced. Third, the coins themselves are of moderately complex design...and would be far more difficult to counterfeit than most physical bitcoins. Finally, even if a thief successfully counterfeited a case, Alitin Mint claims to have a proprietary cipher system in place where they can verify if a case is legitimate. The only other physical bitcoin out there that appears this secure seems to be titan bitcoin. The only drawback is that [it is my understanding] you have to concede actual ownership of the bitcoins to a third party until they are redeemed. |
|
|
|
|
Do you know how many of those were minted?
|
|
|
|
LOL, a 10 btc coin and your asking 30BTC..
anyone who buys these any pays your prices are insane or not thinking about the future..
when bitcoin is worth 100K each, and your holding this 10 btc coin worth a cool million it will feel good i assume.... BUT how in the world are you going to get $2 million premium when you want to sell it..
Its never going to happen!
Good luck though!
someone offered me 20btc a couple post up. does that mean he offered me $1m premium? in your eyes i guess so.. as far as i can tell this coin has rarely been sold for cheaper than what i'm offering 28.9 and negotiable. use the search forum feature. (the recent ones in the 15btc range were scams and are not counted) Although I wouldn't personally pay the premium, I think you should be able to get around 25K or more for the coin. |
|
|
|
How does one actually verify that the coins are indeed silver? Without access to the coin itself given the case needs to remain closed how does one confirm this? Not sure if I would ever claim that something is "Tamper-proof" as nothing is tamper-proof if attackers are given enough time and resources to find ways around security mechanisms. Other than that this is an interesting concept/project. Just out of curiosity... How would you verify that they are silver if you had them out of the cases? How can anyone "verify" that something is solid silver vs silver-plated? There are acid tests, but you could also measure the coin's weight in troy oz. Using the normal volume of silver per mass this could be established. Of course I am no expert in this area but not having access to the coin at any point prior to redeeming removes any verification of the coin being actually silver. I'm sure there are other way to determine this. Does the "acid test" of which you speak do anything to deface the silver? Does it determine whether it's solid silver or silver plated? I think your point would be more valid if these were bullion coins. Given the value of the attached two bitcoins, it seems unlikely that someone would be attempting to defraud on the silver content of the coin. |
|
|
|
LOL, a 10 btc coin and your asking 30BTC..
anyone who buys these any pays your prices are insane or not thinking about the future..
when bitcoin is worth 100K each, and your holding this 10 btc coin worth a cool million it will feel good i assume.... BUT how in the world are you going to get $2 million premium when you want to sell it..
Its never going to happen!
Good luck though!
So what you're saying is that when bitcoin is worth 100K, your 10 btc token would need to be worth three million dollars for this to be a good investment now... I see your point. |
|
|
|
How does one actually verify that the coins are indeed silver? Without access to the coin itself given the case needs to remain closed how does one confirm this? Not sure if I would ever claim that something is "Tamper-proof" as nothing is tamper-proof if attackers are given enough time and resources to find ways around security mechanisms. Other than that this is an interesting concept/project. Just out of curiosity... How would you verify that they are silver if you had them out of the cases? How can anyone "verify" that something is solid silver vs silver-plated? |
|
|
|
|
A 100 bitcoin bar would have a face value of ~$95,000. Given that much money at stake, I would require proof that the hologram sticker hadn't been tampered with... I don't understand why anyone would have that level of confidence in such flimsey security. It has been demonstrated that Casascius holograms, while tamper-resistent, are not tamper-proof. $95,000 is a pretty big incentive for a lot of thieves.
|
|
|
|
Are they asking 10 or 100 times what some think it's worth? I'm sure some here would love to get it if it was super cheap, but then again it's supply and demand. All silver ones sound good since plated things often regarded as cheap I think.
IMO, 10 BTC is a hugely inflated price for an empty bar. However, that is approximately what a 1,000 BTC empty bar sold on ebay.... so I guess that's the going rate. Yes, this guy is trying to say that an empty, gold plated bar is worth 100 times that. It's common for collectors to over-value their goods. |
|
|
|
Thanks. I will update the photos ASAP.
I think your coins might be worth more than you're asking...perhaps BTC1.5 each. Don't settle for anything less than your price. |
|
|
|
|
