you can do all the accounting based on HD wallets and provable addresses. this can be done today automatically. cryptocurrencies changes principles of accounting. you can read my thread to get an idea how this can be done.
I think that it's an excellent idea! I can't see right now how can it be implemented on fiat accounting, but I like the idea.. |
|
|
|
|
Good to see some development.
Don't cheer yet. This problem is only solved after MtGox is closed and the risk of another "MtGox" emerging is minimized.
|
|
|
|
While it's true that there are going to be frauds along the way, it's not proven that regulation would prevent such frauds. The only reason Gox became successful in the first place is because they were one of the earlier exchanges and people didn't have many options. It's inevitable that some people will be quick to take advantage in a new and un-tested environment, or that people will make mistakes in their implementations and things will go wrong, as they've clearly done here. I honestly don't believe a centralised group or any regulators could change what has happened here. Just like regulators can't stop our fiat banks from all their misdeeds and failures. But I do think any form of centralisation in what is designed to be a decentralised system would be a bad move for all involved.
It will take some trial and error, but the more trustworthy exchanges we get (or better yet, the more people that trade peer to peer, rather than relying on a small number of centralised exchanges), the better off we'll all be. Any individuals or exchanges found to be untrustworthy or unreliable will fall by the wayside. As with all services, the better your service is, the more customers you'll get.
Only thing that has to be done at first is constant check-ups IF the exchange has the $ and BTC that their numbers show. That would be enough to build trust and integrity of the market system. But, it's impossible.. it can't be done... it won't fix anything!!! Burying our heads in sand is the correct way.. it fixes all.. !!!Without regulations the situation with central banks would be 100 times worse. There are always possibilities for loopholes, but if you don't even have to find loopholes, you can just take other people money without any consequences, then it's a lot worse. Please don't reply anymore. Reading your replies makes me want to cry... No thanks, I'll keep replying until your suggestions could actually be implemented in some practical form. Please tell me how you suggest to get accurate information from exchanges as to what their balance really is in various currencies? Tell me how you're going to force an exchange to comply with rules set up by a third party "regulator" who by definition would have no real power to do anything. Tell you what, if you want regulation, launch your own regulated coin. You'll then see unequivocal evidence that allowing the market to choose is the best method, because no one is going to choose your coin over Bitcoin. It's unregulated by design and it's going to stay that way. Ok, now we are getting somewhere. This is the plan: Create an organization out of trusted members of the cryptocurrency community. These members shouldn't have any financial connection with any of the existing exchanges and they should be known for publicly speaking in behalf of cryptos or they have made technical contribution to cryptos. For instance the creators of different coins, owners of different websites or support services or just any other public figure that likes to talk about bitcoin or cryptos in general. Now this group starts quarterly audits on different exchanges and will post their findings on how transparent and cooperative were the particular exchange. The exchange has to prove that it is holding the amount of $ in bank accounts and the amount of cryptos in their crypto wallets. Specifics in doing this is a mater of accounting. The exchange has to cooperate voluntarily or the entire correspondence will be made public and they will be flagged as an untrustworthy exchange if they refuse. Now, these findings have be as public as possible. When people type "bitcoin" into google, then this webpage has to be in top5. This can all be done with proper investments, investments that can be sponsored by everyone who wants for bitcoin to succeed. These contributions have to be anonymous and can be made through BTC. With this project there can be certainty to newcomers on what exchange is dubious and which is not. The only way to bring some order into the market system without involving the government. And the only way to create regulations that would work on a global scale. You can't threaten crooks with jail time, but you can hold up a constant threat of being exposed. And that would be enough for now. |
|
|
|
While it's true that there are going to be frauds along the way, it's not proven that regulation would prevent such frauds. The only reason Gox became successful in the first place is because they were one of the earlier exchanges and people didn't have many options. It's inevitable that some people will be quick to take advantage in a new and un-tested environment, or that people will make mistakes in their implementations and things will go wrong, as they've clearly done here. I honestly don't believe a centralised group or any regulators could change what has happened here. Just like regulators can't stop our fiat banks from all their misdeeds and failures. But I do think any form of centralisation in what is designed to be a decentralised system would be a bad move for all involved.
It will take some trial and error, but the more trustworthy exchanges we get (or better yet, the more people that trade peer to peer, rather than relying on a small number of centralised exchanges), the better off we'll all be. Any individuals or exchanges found to be untrustworthy or unreliable will fall by the wayside. As with all services, the better your service is, the more customers you'll get.
Only thing that has to be done at first is constant check-ups IF the exchange has the $ and BTC that their numbers show. That would be enough to build trust and integrity of the market system. But, it's impossible.. it can't be done... it won't fix anything!!! Burying our heads in sand is the correct way.. it fixes all.. !!!Without regulations the situation with central banks would be 100 times worse. There are always possibilities for loopholes, but if you don't even have to find loopholes, you can just take other people money without any consequences, then it's a lot worse. Please don't reply anymore. Reading your replies makes me want to cry... |
|
|
|
Your solution is terrible. Wealthy people buying up Gox so that they can continue the fraud for themselves is not a valid solution. Also, you seem to have missed the fundamental flaw in your plan, which is, you can't force the people who run gox to sell it. Until you can address those fatal flaws, no one is going to pay any attention to you. Accept it. The best solution is to create a mass campaign telling people not to use gox and to let them die.  I agree that they probably won't sell it. If they would be incompetent then they would sell it to throw away their troublems. But they are probably fraudalent, and they will keep their little scam project. But still it would be worth the try.. just maybe we are lucky and they are just incompetent. Luckly you are paying some attention to me, but sadly sand feels too good around your face while it's buried. You are a naive person who things that people will stay honest when there are no consequences of dis-honesty. When I was a child and under the loving protection of my mother, then I used to think like that also. Mass campaigns coming from unknown names mean nothing. People won't be sure if the information is truth or is it just dis-information created by the competitors. Information on this forum about MtGox problems mean absolutely nothing to the wider audience. What needs to be done is that known names, who have been talking behalf of bitcoin through the media have to do it. And they have to offer an solution that will guarantee that these exchange scams won't happen in the future. That is the only way to gain back the trust of the wider audience. But.. as we see, the "community leaders" are just like the regular folks here in this forum.. Too afraid to touch these subjects, keeping their heads safely under warm sand. The bitcoin market system will face the same kind of problem as global finance did... Too much of problem ignoring accumulated and there had to be harsh decisions or face the collapse of the entire system. It currently seems that the ones that run global finance have more balls and brains then this community. |
|
|
|
No, you got some counter-arguments which explained why they're happy to continue on this path and why they didn't agree with you. If you don't accept their arguments, by all means lose respect for them, but it doesn't change the fact that they disagree with you.
Yes, I understood it very well that they are happy with burying their heads in sand. But there were no arguments on how this method is the best way in the survival and development of bitcoin. Also, your suggestion for handing extra powers and controls over to the people who hold the most Bitcoins would be a recipe for disaster. I'm glad everyone disagrees, because that would be a completely biased and corrupt system. If Gox have cocked up their system, it's down to them to fix it and hope that people are stupid enough to trust them with any future investments.
People have been burying their heads in sand with MtGox for too long, for there to be any other solutions then a bail-out. Global finance used bail-outs in the same manner. If there wouldn't have been bail-outs then the system would have collapsed. They also did a lot of burying their heads in sand in the past to ignore the growing problems. Now the bitcoin market system is in the same situation, to issue an bail-out and create a more secure system, so fraudulent exchanges like MtGox won't flourish in the future, or accept the total collapse of the bitcoin market system. With creating a self-regulatory organization, that does auditing on exchanges, you don't need the richest bitcoin holders. This organization should consists of people who have the most trust among others. The size of their wallets don't mean much in that plan. What you're suggesting would basically mirror our fiat "too big to fail" system, where the wealthy collude to maintain the status quo. Gox doesn't deserve any help to carry on failing.
I'm telling you that the MtGox situation has gone too far. It should have been dealt with a long time ago. Now it's so far, that it will hurt the integrity of the entire bitcoin market. When it goes public that MtGox was a scam, then people can't trust any of the exchanges. There just isn't a reason to trust that the exchange that should hold your money, isn't using your money to gamble on the stock market for instance. Gox doesn't deserve any help to carry on failing. If it's too weak and broken to carry on, allow it to die.
When Gox has been skimming their clients for over a year, then I doubt that they are weak. They only want to be shown weak, so that all the emus will continue to keep their heads under sand. Gox will probably last as long as bitcoin, because soon some BTC withdrawals will return, and newcomers will still continue to use MtGox because well-know sites like bitcoin.org are recommending it. But I think more and more every day, that bitcoin is too weak and broken to carry on and I should allow it to die, without trying to do anything. I have a some energy still left in me, but I won't last long when I have to read replies like this. |
|
|
|
The community has to dismiss the bitcoin foundation and the dismissal has to be public and made by known figures among the community. The foundation is corrupt, but most of the newcomers trust it and MtGox with it. AND THEN, there has to be a self-regulatory system, with quarterly audits and check-ups on the exchanges, so that all the $ and BTC are on the bank accounts and in BTC wallets. Without this system, there is no way in trusting if an exchange is honest or not.. Without this system, every exchange is tempted to gamble with their customers money. Most people won't stay honest if there are no consequences. But, let's not do this... because burying our heads in sand is the way! Good job everyone!  |
|
|
|
Nooo, self-regulation is evil because it needs work... let's just hide our heads in sand and wish we can get rich quick by buying low and selling high.. the free market will sort out everything!
Now, with jokes aside, I have been trying to tell everyone that there needs to be self-regulation in the market system, but I have basically gotten zero interest on that idea.
I think that bitcoin is doomed, because most in the community are lazy, uneducated and have a vision of an mole. They are the same people who listen to motivational speakers and buy self-help books, so they can be millionaires. No real work or development is needed for those people, you only have to believe really hard that you are awesome, and red carpets will roll and champagne will fall from the sky!
When most of the community consists of people like that, then it's foolish to hope that anything gets done. Everyone will just wish really hard that bitcoin will cost quad-zillions in the future and they will be the new wealthy l33t.
I know it's tempting to dismiss counter arguments by portraying the people making those arguments as stupid or lazy, but I assure you it's not doing your argument any favours. If you want to change people's minds, you have to come up with something a little more substantial than ridicule. The argument against you is that Bitcoin's current implementation is a pure transaction between two parties. Any attempt to regulate or legislate automatically adds more parties to the mix and therefore breaks the "pure" system we currently enjoy. It's neither lazy nor stupid to argue against the point you're trying to make. It leads in a direction that the vast majority of us do not want to go. It doesn't need regulation of any kind. Regulation will kill the currency. It needs less reliance on shitty, centralised, third-party exchanges like Gox.
which won't happen w/o regulation. stop being a child. Ditto for you. You're not making a case, you're just throwing words around. Well, I tried as you can see from this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=452586.msg5001943#msg5001943But when only "counter-arguments" I got, were "but..but.. government regulations are bad!" or "but.. but... the banks are also bad!"... Then I lost all hope... No one is interesting in creating a self-regulatory system that would build integrity and trust around the bitcoin market system. No one got worried that if MtGox falls, then people will think "how can I trust any of those exchanges?".. All I got were silly excuses on why we should just keep burying our heads in sand and hope that the problems will solve itself. So, you may see the reason on why I'm not showing much respect towards this community. |
|
|
|
I can see that your head is not in sand. Please hide your head in sand and do it quickly, or else the free market can't sort everything out. Good job everyone else, with the lack of replies. It shows that you all are doing really well in hiding your heads in sand. |
|
|
|
|
Nooo, self-regulation is evil because it needs work... let's just hide our heads in sand and wish we can get rich quick by buying low and selling high.. the free market will sort out everything!
Now, with jokes aside, I have been trying to tell everyone that there needs to be self-regulation in the market system, but I have basically gotten zero interest on that idea.
I think that bitcoin is doomed, because most in the community are lazy, uneducated and have a vision of an mole. They are the same people who listen to motivational speakers and buy self-help books, so they can be millionaires. No real work or development is needed for those people, you only have to believe really hard that you are awesome, and red carpets will roll and champagne will fall from the sky!
When most of the community consists of people like that, then it's foolish to hope that anything gets done. Everyone will just wish really hard that bitcoin will cost quad-zillions in the future and they will be the new wealthy l33t.
|
|
|
|
|
Only a complete moron would use bitcoin for storing value.
Bitcoin price is made up by pure speculation. Holding your wealth in bitcoin means that you trust your money to the bitcoin community. Trusting this flock of emus without constant supervision is beyond naive.
If you want to store value, then invest in rare earth metals or any in other resources thats demand is growing but the availability dropping.
|
|
|
|
As we see, MtGox has been the cause of most crashes. They have the ability to throw the market around every direction they want. Only someone with mental retardation can see that these situations have been accidents, and no insider trading is done by MtGox and it's associates. Now, I have to remind you all! Everyone just hide their heads in sand and let the free market sort everything out. I know that the majority of community are already skilled in hiding their head in sand, but this reminder goes to all the new investors out there. In this picture we see a respected bitcoin community leader demonstrating how to hide ones head in sand, while the free market is sorting everything out:  The community should not invest it's time and money in creating information channels that inform everyone about the dangers of MtGox. The community shouldn't come together to offer solutions about how to shun MtGox exchange from the entire market system. The community shouldn't think of new ways how to keep the integrity of the market without government regulations. The best way is to Hide your head in sand!The current popular method of hiding ones head in sand is to hope that MtGox will go out of business anyway, so nothing needs to be done. (except hide your head in sand of course). This method has worked for a long time, and it will probably work for the coming years! All because everyone are doing such a good job in hiding their heads in sand. |
|
|
|
|
MtGox has been the cause of most of the crashes. They are not incompetent but are malignant, otherwise they would of closed their doors. But instead they are making good money with throwing the market at any direction they want.
But the Bitcoin community is a flock of emus, who are not able to organize, to finally root out MtGox from the entire market system. When a proposal is made about doing something to protect the integrity of the market, then all the emus will hide their heads in sand and hope that the free market fixes everything...
Most of the bitcoin enthusiasts are moronic get-rich-quick people, who dream about getting rich while doing nothing...
|
|
|
|
I had 320$ buy order, but on stamp  |
|
|
|
|
Apple has been an greedy money-grubbing corporation for more then a decade. Most of their success comes from marketing techniques, that spread cultish behavior among their customers.
And when Apple doesn't support the cult of bitcoin, only then will the bitcoin cult members realize "Hey! Apple isn't all about freedom!". God damn, how can some people be so thick.
|
|
|
|
|
Stop crying.
China and Russia banned BTC because it's not very hard to see that most of the coins and the market is owned by wall street players.
|
|
|
|
Here's what government regulation of money gets you.
"If you stop sitting on your ass and act, then there can be regulations without government involvement" "But, but... government regulations are bad.." ... This is it, now I've lost all hope. Keep on chanting choo-choo and dream about buying lambos.  |
|
|
|
It's the fair price for lack of regulation, as it creates the maximum possible levels of innovation but also allow the maximum possible levels of risk.
What kind of innovation is brought forward by a market system, where con artists can create new exchanges, steal their customers money and do it without any form of obstacles? Where is the innovation in the market system where the customer doesn't have any security in knowing if a certain exchange is a scam or not? Failures are annoying or painful but like in nature, they are required to assert the survival of the fittest.
Yes, and failure to act will be the end of the bitcoin world. Bitcoin users won't be fit enough to survive, since their idea in fixing problems is just to sit on their ass and wait for problems to fix themselves. The only troubling detail (IMHO) is that players in these unregulated markets apparently often don't see these risks and somehow believe they were entitled to or assume some form of protection - which doesn't exist.
Lack of survival instinct I'd call it, some others may just be unlucky (wrong time wrong place).
That's life. Unregulated, cruel, in some cases deadly.
Not lack of survival instincts but lack of information. The majority of society are not experienced in obtaining information through channels like this forum. Without experience, it's very hard to distinguish disinformation from information. The majority of society will get their information on most known and simple information channels like bitcoin.org, that to this date, recommend MtGox as the nr. 1 exchange that should be used. Elitist snobs of the bitcoin community like to say "If they can't extract information here, then they are stupid and to hell with them". But they are forgetting that this is the same as saying "to hell with bitcoin", because that majority of society would be the future of bitcoin, if bitcoin can survive. Without these people, there is no future for bitcoin and all the elitist snobs have to play their bitcoin game in singleplayer mode. Noteworthy that the BTC world - by design - lacks any form of police or any form of group that could punish criminals/scammers etc. that exploit the system/harm other users.
Outside of verbal support in forums etc. it's everyone for themselves. Lonely individuals in a very hostile world.
IMHO this lession should be a bold, red, flashing Point 1 of every BitCoin education/information material presented to new members of the community.
Arguably not exactly good advertising material - but the tough, cruel truth.
There should be a central review system of different exchanges. An organization that does quarterly audits and check-ups on all the exchanges and then will post the results how cooperative and transparent were a particular exchange. This all could be organized if there would be will to do so.. I myself am losing faith in the bitcoin community more and more every day. It seems like the get-rich-quick mentality is irreversibly dominant and the majority aren't willing to do any work for bigger gains. Most create illusions that all the problems will solve themselves and they can get rich just by buying low and selling high, while not spending a minute on something that would actually develop the bigger picture. It was natural that bitcoin was the financial wild west when it's biggest utility was illegal activity in the tor network. Now when bitcoin wants to reach the threshold in being a serious financial tool, there also has to be some responsibility and order. Considering the current status, it's very unlikely that bitcoin will exceeds this threshold and it will probably be an temporary phenomenon. The little coin that could've been something, but sadly didn't live up to it's potential... |
|
|
|
Feeling like this?  |
|
|
|
|
Show Posts
