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"So for this to be bad we need to enforce laws that prevent equal access to knowledge and resources."
You dont have to invent anything . It is called private property and it is essence of free market. ( dont confuse with personal property )
People owning more stuff then they need thus inherently blocking others from accessing it.
So with option nr 1. Yes its a solution to starve the poor but remember when you get ideological XIX century capitalism you will also get historically opposite ideologies , so your solution may actually backfire on you.
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Who knows, may be yes... Official stats are heavily rigged, don't trust them at all! For example, about 1 million U.S. long term unemployed will lose benefits in January and probably will be deducted from the unemployment rate. Also don't forget about underployment (i.e. people work only 3-4 hours a day with appropriate wage reduction) which is rampant now. Better look at Shadow Stats alternate unemployment rate which looks much more trustworthy! And dont forget government jobs ( which are on record high worldwide ) Those are not free-market jobs those are politics sponsored jobs. Government all around the world could employ half a population to sit a the desk and do nothing Rassak would still claim technological unemployment does not exists because unemployment is low. This iron free-market logic ... |
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See, that is exactly what I'm talking about. People like Bill Gates, Sergey Brin, Steve Jobs, and others like them didn't have jobs, or capital to live off of, yet they live pretty damn well. Capitalism is not finding an employer and hoping he will give you a job
I just love this kind of arguments ... ( love to laugh at it ) This is a one in a million exception not a rule. And yet those twisted free-market minds somehow treat it like a revelation. |
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Same thing that happened in every other country where a revolution resulted in public confiscation of private land and private means of production (it was never good).
The very first thing Russian revolutionists did was .... gave away land to peasants into private ownership ..... they just redistributed it from wealthy aristocracy. Thats why revolution was so popular there and that why i meant it is bound to happen again , history just love to repeat it-self.. And only later when Stalin was in power things went bad and Russia was transformed into state capitalism And if you think soviet russia was marketless ... think again oh and also learn history because your knowledge sucks. World did not and does not work like you are being though on free-market websites ...
In the post above I have foreseen that countries may split into .....free market
This is impossible such a thing never existed , doest not exists and will not exists due to nature of the market it-self. |
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What did i say about delusion of free-marketer  ?
Well, it's a good thing we know how this anger always ends. They will just end up with another Cuba, Venezuela, and Soviet Union. Hopefully I will be able to see it far enough ahead to get myself, and all my money, out of their country before that happens.
* Good ( as in person defending invisible hand ) always wins. * Absolutely nothing can go wrong in an age of weapons of mass destruction. Invisible hand will protects the believers.
Someone says "Down with the bourgeoisie!" and you all tear down the machines. Now you have no food, no clothing, no tools, and nothing to entertain yourselves with.
Good job, you poor starving morons!
Enemies of the invisible hand are : * Are mindless zombies th iat will just run into the bullet * Can't organize How about "Down with the bourgeoisie!" and you all tear down the bourgeoisies and take the machines ?? Cant comprehed such a scenario ?? Oh i forgot , belivers in invisible hand will be protected !!! |
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Whom are they going to be pissed at? "The Economy?" Down with the economy, and technical innovation, and robots, and cell phones, and the whole internets!
Yeah, I don't think so.
You and the like. Market fanatics ... The anger will be channeled somewhere depending on the political situation. My bet is on you. Just few years before WW2 no one ever expected next things in history to happen the way they did. Today is peace tomorrow blood is flowing in the streets. |
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Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.
This is known as "bad luck."
Nice BS anecdote will absolutely no cognitive value. Not to mention pathetic attempt to make people submit to your values because of the "invisible all powerful force" .... |
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Nope! They will prefer to die from the bullet with AK-47 in hands rather than from hunger!  It is funny delusion within free-marketers. People that will be opposing invisible hand. * Are mindless zombies th iat will just run into the bullet * Can't organize * Does not have access to weapons themselves. * Good ( as in person defending invisible hand ) always wins. * Absolutely nothing can go wrong in an age of weapons of mass destruction. Invisible hand will protects the believers. |
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Yes, and they will starve and die. Or become desperate enough to survive to figure out how to survive. So what?
And you believe those mases of people will just stand and watch how invisible hand of the free market dictate who lives and who dies ?? Talking about religion and fanaticism .... Well you are only asking for another communist revolution because genetic reincarnation of Lenin will be just a matter of time .... mark my words. |
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You can't replace creativity (not yet).
And also you can't will it unlike manual , algorithmic labor. So if you depend on creativity as your source of life necessities , you are pretty much at the mercy of outside circumstances. ( it is called being f****d ) Thats the whole point. Free market can't operate like that. Period. |
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We had computers since the 30's (before even), and software since the 60's.
Which very pretty much statistically insignificant. We also had factory automation since at least the middle of the last century,
You are mistaking mechanization with automation. We also had factory automation since at least the middle of the last century,
Just because process was mechanized it doesn't mean it was autonomous. Learn to read and read first post again. It is when technology becomes autonomous value added by worker drop You are basically claiming that a tractor or a machine replacing 25 farmers or factory workers with 1 is not a problem, but a computer replacing 25 tractor drivers with 1 computer operator is. I don't buy it.
It is really that difficult to comprehend that this time those 24 have absolutely nowhere to go. As i said your approach is faith based that magically new jobs will come out of the woodwork in enough quantity. I dont care if there will be jobs for 10 people. Free market can't operate like that sorry. Beside if you actually study history machine replacing 25 farmers or factory workers with 1 was actually a problem for those being replaced. Luckily for the system change was done slowly within decades people had time to adapt. Today drastic changes are within a years Today you may go for 5 year education + few years of practice only to find out your occupation is done by robots/software |
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That was my point, that the jobs disappearing and not coming back is a recent phenomenon, while technological progress is not. This suggests that something other than the increase in technological development is causing this drop.
Like computer and software progress which is new. Nice way of ignoring everything i and OP said and keeping your head in free-market wonderland. Read first post in this thread. It is only after technology becomes autonomous ( thanks to computers and software ) the problem arrives not just because of the technology. Free market is dead no matter what you do , how do you feel being ideological bankrupt |
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Don't be so naive - production of replicator-level 3D printers will be monopolized by large corporations like anything else. Energy also won't be free, look how EU banned cheap Chinese photovoltaic panels to reduce competition for preferred corporations.
Welcome to capitalism ?? And in before argument : it is not capitalism , capitalism is about free market crap. No , capitalism is about winning period. Money flowing into your industry,pocket = win. Money not flowing , you die. This is simple as that. No one gives a s**t about fantasy world in libertarians heads. |
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Murwa correctly answered on your question. There are really no viable 3+ option, in fact only single variant is possible because implementing unconditional income will instantly fail as capital will flight from this country.
There is a third way. Open source economy based on principle of production on demand. We just need a cheap 3D printers available for general population not only in labs such as NASA. And right now printers can print in almost anything , there is no technology that we lack. |
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Why is there no 'false dilemma' poll option? I think what the 2nd or 3rd poster said is right - all automation does is make manufacturing cheaper, which only means the product gets cheaper for those who get their jobs displaced.
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Basic reading fail detected. I never said people would go jobless, obviously that is an entirely different thing.
So displaced people got jobs |
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Why is there no 'false dilemma' poll option? I think what the 2nd or 3rd poster said is right - all automation does is make manufacturing cheaper, which only means the product gets cheaper for those who get their jobs displaced.
Basic math fail detected. I guess you are just another free-marketer. It doesn't matter how things are cheap when your income is zero. Zero divided by any number no matter how small still gives zero. |
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Unfortunately a planned economy can't work. If you plan the entire thing and the smallest detail doesn't line up with "the plan" then how does the rest of the plan adjust? This was tried a lot in the USSR (5-year plans) but always failed. Additionally, I'm not sure how you plan an economy without everyone being on welfare (i.e. provided for by the government). Wouldn't their wages, or alternatively their means of subsistence, need to be part of the plan?
Planned economy is not the future. Production on demand is. Just like with a 3d printer , you dont central-plan what comes out of it, but instead you have a direct access to the means of production. |
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Hmm, don't know where you got your statistics from, but these say otherwise. It's a chart of total global labor force, employment, and unemployment from 1948 to present
First. Learn to read : I wrote All global statistics support my point of view. Since last 30 years or so ( depending on the country ). Not since 1948. Second your statistic is not representative since it is in abolute numbers. Global population 1980 : 4,435 billion Global population 2013 : >7 billion 57% increase. workforce 1980 : 100 000 workforce 2013 : 140 000 40% increase Beside your data has no source attached and it seems it is not what you suggested it is. There is nowhere word global written on itAnother thing it looks like your data sucks. How the hell labor force is constant since the last 8 years ( even dropping ) , Global population increased like 500 millions or so. You dont even understand what this data represents , no wonder you have no clue.
Note that technology has been booming, jobs have been getting replaced, population has been increasing, and yet unemployment has remained fairly constant. So, jobs replaced by technology were apparently being replaced by new jobs.
Nope , you don't understand the data you presented. And some of the jobs were replaced perhaps not all. And the only thing you need to have a problem is when jobs disparaging faster then they are created ( which is now ) |
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If one can get away with working only 1-2 hours/day, and relax the rest of the day, why would he riot? If capitalism and the free market are allowed to work their magic unadulterated by government ineptitude, this would be the end result -- an incredibly high Standard of Living:Work ratio.
Oh another free-market delusion. Sorry capitalism require to work longer hours !!! If there is much more supply of labor then demand ( due to highly advanced technology , no need for unskilled workers etc. )there is always someone that will be willing to work longer hours for the same pay because he is forced to via reality of the system ( no wage = starvation ) And thus the wage collapse happens ( which is exactly what is going for like 30 years or so in developed countries ). More supply of labour then demand due to globalisation and women enetring workforce = lower real wages , longer hours , more unemployment etc and stupid economy aka capitalism collapse This is how market actually work. It is a cruel world because it is competition based , not some fluffy wonderland |
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This is your claim. I don't have to have faith in, or believe, in anything, since it's on you to prove that new jobs will not come out, despite them doing so for centuries to date.
Nope, you are living in delusion. All global statistics support my point of view. Since last 30 years or so ( depending on the country ). Global Real wages down Labor participation rate down Labor income share in GDP down. ( This was an iron division between labor share and capital share that was stable for centuries until computers arrived ) Amount of people working in private businesses down ( trend of last 10 years ). Many people hired in administration ( hidden unemployment ) More people working part time , less people working full time. ( scewing statistics of true unemployment , in many countries someone working 8 hours a week is not counted as unemployed ) Record low investments into new employees , record high investments into equipment. All within a world of record productivity. Sorry , the trends don't lie , they just are. Free market is a fanatical religion , nothing more , and it makes its followers resistant to knowledge. There is absolutely no hint that current trends will change and new jobs will come out of woodwork especially when there is a prospect of computerization almost half the occupations in the next 20 years. This is just impossible. |
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