Technological unemployment is (almost) here

[Rassah]

Yes, and they will starve and die. Or become desperate enough to survive to figure out how to survive. So what?

And you believe those mases of people will just stand and watch how invisible hand of the free market dictate who lives and who dies ?? Talking about religion and fanaticism ....

Whom are they going to be pissed at? "The Economy?" Down with the economy, and technical innovation, and robots, and cell phones, and the whole internets!

Yeah, I don't think so.

[giantdragon]

Whom are they going to be pissed at? "The Economy?" Down with the economy, and technical innovation, and robots, and cell phones, and the whole internets!

Most likely the anger will be targeted on capital owners, but in some technophobic conservative communities may be also on programmers!

[kjj]

Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.
This is known as "bad luck."

[Murwa]

Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.
This is known as "bad luck."

Nice  BS anecdote will absolutely no cognitive value.

Not to mention pathetic attempt to make people submit to your values because of the "invisible all powerful force" ....

[Murwa]

Whom are they going to be pissed at? "The Economy?" Down with the economy, and technical innovation, and robots, and cell phones, and the whole internets!

Yeah, I don't think so.

You and the like. Market fanatics ... The anger will be channeled somewhere depending on the political situation. My bet is on you.

Just few years before WW2 no one ever expected next things in history to happen the way they did.
Today is peace tomorrow blood is flowing in the streets.

[ltc_foundry]

20-30 years from now, with automation having rendered entire classes of workers obsolete, with the resultant gains having been gobbled by the same actors who have dominated global commerce these last 80+ years - I think we'll find then what the end game really looks like.

There are no free markets - and never will be. The idea that market forces will prevent revolution is so naïve I have trouble that anyone actually believes it, and yet... here we are.

Either automation frees us from labor, or the labor will tear down the machines. It's as simple as that.

[Rassah]

Whom are they going to be pissed at? "The Economy?" Down with the economy, and technical innovation, and robots, and cell phones, and the whole internets!

Yeah, I don't think so.

You and the like. Market fanatics ... The anger will be channeled somewhere depending on the political situation. My bet is on you.

Well, it's a good thing we know how this anger always ends. They will just end up with another Cuba, Venezuela, and Soviet Union. Hopefully I will be able to see it far enough ahead to get myself, and all my money, out of their country before that happens.

Actually, thanks to bitcoin, even an angry revolution won't help them. At least when the russians raided the royal palace and the homes of all the wealthy, they could coonfistake tons od gold, money, and other valuables. Now they will just kill people without any access to their bitcoin passwords   

[Rassah]

Either automation frees us from labor, or the labor will tear down the machines. It's as simple as that.

You are a poor worker. You are your buddies are forced to toil at machines that manufacture basics like food, clothing, and transportation appliances, and more discretionary things, like electoronics, communication equipment,  and various other tools.

Someone says "Down with the bourgeoisie!" and you all tear down the machines. Now you have no food, no clothing, no tools, and nothing to entertain yourselves with.
Good job, you poor starving morons!

[giantdragon]

Hopefully I will be able to see it far enough ahead to get myself, and all my money, out of their country before that happens.

Actually, thanks to bitcoin, even an angry revolution won't help them. At least when the russians raided the royal palace and the homes of all the wealthy, they could coonfistake tons od gold, money, and other valuables. Now they will just kill people without any access to their bitcoin passwords  

If you own means of production, real estate or any other physical capital in this country it can be expropriated, as well as rights on virtual capital (patents and copyrights) simply voided.
Bitcoin won't save your property in case of revolution!

Someone says "Down with the bourgeoisie!" and you all tear down the machines. Now you have no food, no clothing, no tools, and nothing to entertain yourselves with.
Good job, you poor starving morons!

Socialist ≠ Luddite! The problem is "technological inequality" caused by automation and unfair redistribution of the product they create in favor of capital owners instead of workers, not the machines itself!

[Rassah]

If you own means of production, real estate or any other physical capital in this country it can be expropriated, as well as rights on virtual capital (patents and copyrights) simply voided.
Bitcoin won't save your property in case of revolution!

I don't support patents and copyrights, either, but that's true about the rest. And we all know the outcome. Same thing that happened in every other country where a revolution resulted in public confiscation of private land and private means of production (it was never good).

The problem is "technological inequality" caused by automation and unfair redistribution of the product they create in favor of capital owners instead of workers, not the machines itself!

Why is it unfair? Should workers get more product, even if they don't contribute as much to its production? I would argue that it's unfair for workers to get ANY product, because without the capital owners, no product would be created in the first place (and my argument would also be ridiculous).
Who is it that decides what is fair, what is not, who contributed, and who did not?

[giantdragon]

Same thing that happened in every other country where a revolution resulted in public confiscation of private land and private means of production (it was never good).

You can find millions of people who think it was good! Just try to read opinions on anti-"laissez faire" sites.

I would argue that it's unfair for workers to get ANY product, because without the capital owners, no product would be created in the first place (and my argument would also be ridiculous).

Your argument is stupid! As capital owner can be the state, workers' union, community etc who will manage production and fairly redistribute profit among workers, not pay dividends to private shareholders.

Who is it that decides what is fair, what is not, who contributed, and who did not?

It probably will be workers' unions.

[Rassah]

Same thing that happened in every other country where a revolution resulted in public confiscation of private land and private means of production (it was never good).

You can find millions of people who think it was good! Just try to read opinions on anti-"laissez faire" sites.

Or I can read opinions of people who lived in USSR, or now live in Cuba, Venezuela, China, Iran, and North Korea. Well, maybe not North Korea.

As capital owner can be the state, workers' union, community etc who will manage production and fairly redistribute profit among workers, not pay dividends to private shareholders.

But the private shareholders were the ones who put the money together to get the company those workers are working in started in the first place. And the only reason they gave the money to form the company, and thus give those workers jobs, was because they were promised returns or dividends from that company.
Does fair distribution mean much higher amounts go to the people at the top who are running the system, and much smaller to the lowest workers who are just watching the machines, or cleaning the floors, or pressing a button all day?

Who is it that decides what is fair, what is not, who contributed, and who did not?

It probably will be workers' unions.

How do the workers in the union know what level of skill is required to run the company and how much that person should earn? And what if their "fair" wages end up with them not being able to hire anyone to manage the company?

[giantdragon]

@Rassah, it is an endless dispute! History shows that both parties will never agree which point of view is correct and what is fair.
In the post above I have foreseen that countries may split into socialist, free market and technophobic blocks (even whole countries can fall apart - Catalonia, Quebec and Scotland are signs of the coming trend). This is inevitable if no action taken to address technological unemployment problem!

[Murwa]

What did i say about delusion of free-marketer ?

Well, it's a good thing we know how this anger always ends. They will just end up with another Cuba, Venezuela, and Soviet Union. Hopefully I will be able to see it far enough ahead to get myself, and all my money, out of their country before that happens.

* Good ( as in person defending invisible hand ) always wins.
* Absolutely nothing can go wrong in an age of weapons of mass destruction. Invisible hand will protects the believers.

Someone says "Down with the bourgeoisie!" and you all tear down the machines. Now you have no food, no clothing, no tools, and nothing to entertain yourselves with.
Good job, you poor starving morons!

Enemies of the invisible hand are :
* Are mindless zombies th iat will just run into the bullet
* Can't organize

How about "Down with the bourgeoisie!" and you all tear down the bourgeoisies and take the machines ??

Cant comprehed such a scenario ?? Oh i forgot , belivers in invisible hand will be protected !!!

[Murwa]

Same thing that happened in every other country where a revolution resulted in public confiscation of private land and private means of production (it was never good).

The very first thing Russian revolutionists did was .... gave away land to peasants into private ownership ..... they just redistributed it from wealthy aristocracy. Thats why revolution was so popular there and that why i meant it is bound to happen again , history just love to repeat it-self.. And only later when Stalin was in power things went bad and Russia was transformed into state capitalism

And if you think soviet russia was marketless ... think again oh and also learn history because your knowledge sucks. World did not and does not work like you are being though on free-market websites ...

In the post above I have foreseen that countries may split into .....free market

This is impossible such a thing never existed , doest not exists and will not exists due to nature of the market it-self.

[giantdragon]

In the post above I have foreseen that countries may split into .....free market

This is impossible such a thing never existed , doest not exists and will not exists due to nature of the market it-self.

I mean laizess faire capitalism which is so actively advocated by libertarians. They won't easily give up and likely to move to the enclaves or even floating cities when socialist pressure will grow.

[Rassah]

Someone says "Down with the bourgeoisie!" and you all tear down the machines. Now you have no food, no clothing, no tools, and nothing to entertain yourselves with.
Good job, you poor starving morons!

Enemies of the invisible hand are :
* Are mindless zombies th iat will just run into the bullet
* Can't organize

No one said they can't organize, or be smart and scheming. It's just that...

How about "Down with the bourgeoisie!" and you all tear down the bourgeoisies and take the machines ??

... if they take the machines, including the "machines" of business structures and supply chains, they won't know how to run them, and those machines will be useless to them. And if they do know how to run them, they will simply become the new bourgeoisie, being all arrogant in thinking they "know how to run things" or that the machines and the business "won't run without them," or even having the audacity to ask for higher pay, just because they think their jobs are "more important" or "more difficult." And this cycle will continue, until there are no more bourgeoisie left, and no one knows how to run the machines and businesses equally.

[Rassah]

The very first thing Russian revolutionists did was .... gave away land to peasants into private ownership ..... they just redistributed it from wealthy aristocracy. Thats why revolution was so popular there and that why i meant it is bound to happen again , history just love to repeat it-self.. And only later when Stalin was in power things went bad and Russia was transformed into state capitalism

And if you think soviet russia was marketless ... think again oh and also learn history because your knowledge sucks. World did not and does not work like you are being though on free-market websites ...

Sure, they took out all the aristocracy (my great-grandparents were among them), confiscated all land and houses (my great-grandmother's mansion became a kindergarten), and raided all the wealthy merchants and businesses. And then they didn't know much what to do with it, other than grow food. Yay for basic agricultural economy.
And no, the transformation started before Stalin. Lenin was possibly even more evil and ruthless than Stalin, but we just didn't get a chance to see how much more. Stalin was just carrying forward Lenin's ideas.

Yes, Soviet Russia was marketless. We had three guys in our neighborhood, who owned a bakery, manage to get a higher allowance of flour, which, instead of using to make basic pasta like the their bakery was required to, they used to make extremely good pierogis using their own cooking skills and recipes. There was still pasta, but we all loved their pierogies, and paid them extra for it. When the government found out they were trying to make a profit selling their own stuff, all three were disappeared into a labor camp, and we never heard of them again.
I know my history, because my family and I live it. And I don't go to free-market web sites, or know of any. I just read a lot about global business and economics in various countries.

[giantdragon]

And if they do know how to run them, they will simply become the new bourgeoisie, being all arrogant in thinking they "know how to run things" or that the machines and the business "won't run without them," or even having the audacity to ask for higher pay, just because they think their jobs are "more important" or "more difficult."

This can happen if elite don't have pressure from the population and expect to stay in the power forever. Late USSR is good example.
However, planned economy with democracy and elections won't let above problem to happen.

[mgburks77]

Besides market distribution and central planning there is one other distribution philosophy, participatory planning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_planning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_economics
http://www.zcommunications.org/

This distribution philosophy implemented with a decentralized system of participatory democracy will go a long way toward resolving many of the fundamental weaknesses of our current social pattern.

At least something to consider along the way.