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This place absolutely never fails to defend major scammers just before they steal everything and split. I mean never; it happened with pirate, Patrick, Nefario, Zhou, the list just goes on.
It boggles the mind how you can get scammed so many times and not learn a goddamned thing.
This is an interesting response to a post that links to an argument for giving BFL representatives a scammer tag, while calling them dishonest and naive. I think you would do well to try to understand a post before commenting on it. I did. He talked about giving them a scammer tag, and I reminded him that bitcointalk has a long and proud tradition of defending their scammers. |
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Your defense of them seems to be that they're dishonest, naive idiots, but not scammers. Have I summed that up about right?
This isn't an attempt at a defense for BFL, it's an accurate accounting of what is going on so that people can use good information to make their business decisions. The problem with a lot of the comments in this topic, is that there is no temperament to reality. It's "BFL are scammorz, har har" which doesn't help anyone. I think that the two key words in the quoted section are dishonest and naive. BFL has shown themselves to be dishonest through ommission about their delivery dates, allowing customers to continue to believe that chips would be arriving in late November when they knew that they were making clock buffer adjustments that would delay at least until mid-December. Because of the competitive environment for ASICs, it is understandable why they would do this, but it's important to know that they did this when deciding whether or not you can trust them regarding future statements. Essentially, if BFL says on January 8th that the chips will arrive soon, this aspect of dishonesty justifies a person to ignore the information until there is provable evidence that the chips are in BFLs hands. I would even go so far as to say the chips need to be integrated into a working prototype, and yochdog and the other guy go there and see it and report positively. Only does it makes sense to plan around a promised BFL shipping date. The other word is naive and it does seem that they have some experience to gain with respect to business relationships. This is pretty normal for a new company though, and as such I think it is overboard to label anyone there as an "idiot". From what I've seen, the people at BFL are pretty smart. As far as being a "scammer", I still feel it is highly doubtful that the intention here was to collect preorder money and then run with it with no product. However, I still feel a scammer tag is warranted and I've laid out the case for that here. It has previously been established that one of BFLs managers is convicted for running a scam defrauding little old ladies for 20 million USD.
I read those documents and I think you may have misunderstood what they said. Sonny was just part of an illegal lottery. People were still paid out. It seems that some people focus on the idea that they didn't buy tickets, but that was a strong feature of their lottery. If they bought tickets from the government, then the highest payout they could expect is half of what they put in. This is because government lotteries are not used as wealth redistribution, but for funding government programs (typically schools). So, instead, they offered tickets with a higher payout that would be validated by the government lottery. The people got paid as according to their voluntary agreements, and they actually got paid much better than if they participated in the government sanctioned lottery. However, the government HATES it when you muscle in on their turf. The business model is essentially the equivalent of selling book orders in Bugsy Segal's backyard. The fact that they were giving people a more fair game while cutting out funds that should have gone to the public treasury was pretty much infuriating to the AG. That's why the hammer fell. The fraud argument from the government is that Sonny's company was supposedly representing themselves as a sanctioned government lottery. Maybe they were, I don't really know because the document lacked evidence, and the government's motivation is suspect. But this has nothing to do with defrauding little old ladies. very informative and well worth reiterating. This place absolutely never fails to defend major scammers just before they steal everything and split. I mean never; it happened with pirate, Patrick, Nefario, Zhou, the list just goes on. It boggles the mind how you can get scammed so many times and not learn a goddamned thing. |
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...or are unwilling to point it out, all BFL threads regarding ASIC were dumped in the german off-topic forum.
I don't expect much discussion on this, since no one of bitcointalk is willing to discuss obvious admin collusion on any number of scams, but I figured someone should bring it up. You all talk a big game about overthrowing world governments, but you can't even stand up to corrupt admins on an internet message board, and as usual, it falls on goons to keep an eye on your scammers.
Anyway, I'm sure you'll dream up plenty of good reasons for an unannounced concealment of a controversial topic, you always do. Remember, the harder you believe it, the more true anything you say becomes.
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I've got a crazy question... Why are these posts in the German -> off topic forum ?
Take a wild guess. |
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And now every single BFL thread has been dumped into the german off topic forum. Wonder which admin got paid off for it, and how much it cost.
Here's the part where you all struggle to defend the obvious scam even more.
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Honestly this is your own problem and I can't believe you have the balls to come here begging after you screwed up so badly. Why should anyone give you their hard earned money when you couldn't even be bothered to use a calculator and do some rough figures before putting yourself into 10k worth of debt.... I am pretty gob smacked right now. I'm sorry but you are stupid and I can't see you getting any sympathy around here.  Sadly, this. Libertarians do not value sympathy or basic human rights, only property and money. |
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You people haven't even seen a prototype, have seen constant delays with unrealistic timelines, no proof at all that there even is an order at a foundry, and you still fall for these obvious scams every single time.
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If you're nervous break up the $500 into smaller amounts to reduce the loss if scammed. So send $100 and after a couple days after they sent the coins, send the next hundred.
Or if you really want to speed up the process, send $100 to 5 different exchangers all at once.
Or, you know, don't send straight cash in the mail to anyone at all. You guys are getting way too conditioned to getting scammed if this plan is at all acceptable. |
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I honestly don't know what exactly is possible and what isn't. We'll be working with Aqoba, our lawyers and their lawyers to figure out exactly what is possible and what isn't.
Seems like you probably should have done more research before opening this thing up. Of course, this kind of fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants unprofessionalism is pretty typical of bitcoin by now. |
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Integrate, integrate, integrate, and Bitcoin will succeed, because it is superior.
If I wanted to go out to dinner, or needed to go to the store for some groceries, where can I go that will accept this superior currencies debit card? Anywhere debit cards are accepted. But way to come out swinging before you understand what is being discussed. But I'm still ultimately paying in cash. The bitcoins are just converted into real money by this bank. I've added this bitcoin middleman because... It's a better store of value than fiat. Is that why it is effectively backed by fiat? Or why the only community to really embrace it is absolutely plagued by scams and baffling incompetence? Back to the initial point, isn't part of the entire mythos of bitcoin getting away from federal regulation and banks? If you are just going to have your bitcoins processed through a bank that then converts them to fiat money, you are just taking a worthless middle step. You're still paying in fiat money, this is not a win for bitcoin, just a confirmation that for anyone to take it seriously, you have to back it with the very fiat money you are trying to overthrow. |
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Integrate, integrate, integrate, and Bitcoin will succeed, because it is superior.
If I wanted to go out to dinner, or needed to go to the store for some groceries, where can I go that will accept this superior currencies debit card? Anywhere debit cards are accepted. But way to come out swinging before you understand what is being discussed. But I'm still ultimately paying in cash. The bitcoins are just converted into real money by this bank. I've added this bitcoin middleman because... This only really proves that bitcoin depends on the financial sector of a fiat currency to have any relevance at all. Unless you want to buy drugs and child porn semi-anonymously. |
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Integrate, integrate, integrate, and Bitcoin will succeed, because it is superior.
If I wanted to go out to dinner, or needed to go to the store for some groceries, where can I go that will accept this superior currencies debit card? |
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Now wait, I thought one of the main points of Bitcoin was to get away from big centralized banks and federal regulation. Of course, you guys have never been shy to call in the Feds to solve your problems, so I guess this latest display of hypocrisy should come as no surprise.
But hey, congratulations for discovering why all modern currencies use banks and government backed insurance. And at what fine establishments can I use this bitcoin debit card?
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Good question. I live on what's commonly known as Massachusetts. I'm hesitant to say I live within the United States because I'm unsure which of the multiple definitions for "United States" applies. For example, Title 26 §3121 defines it: (e) State, United States, and citizen
For purposes of this chapter—
(1) State
The term “State” includes the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, Guam, and American Samoa.
(2) United States
The term “United States” when used in a geographical sense includes the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, Guam, and American Samoa. That's not me. This forum. |
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If Nasser is telling the truth, wouldn't it mean that either a) the chips haven't even been produced yet or b) the bullet run for the chips happened but they're going to scrap all the chips from that run and another bullet run (which will happen fuck knows when) will be needed to produce the chips with the new design?
According to Josh back on the 3rd, they had issues caused by refraction and that's why the chips were delayed with estimated delivery on the 23rd. I can't imagine how they wouldn't know that redesigning the clock buffers would cause a delay back when Josh posted this if it wasn't a new issue. As for why the delay, if the November issue of Bitcoin Magazine would come out it would make a lot more sense. Bottom line is, our chips are the most advanced chips by a wide, wide, margin compared to any other offering. Because of that, the design has taken longer than expected. Our process node also blows away any of the toy offerings from the other vendors and we had to deal with some unexpected refraction issues that needed to be addressed. So, since we are left with differing statements from BFL I'll read between the lines. The first run/prototypes underperformed. Makes sense if the official word is that "there was no flaw," but there was a revision. I'll make this simple. Notice how you have seen absolutely no evidence of a product at all. What is the simplest explanation here? Hell, how many times have you seen this situation here before? How many times are you people going to fall for this scam before you finally wise up? |
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Called it. Thanks for finally giving us the reason behind the delay Josh. 100,000 chips is 7.5*100,000 = 750TH/s. Unless there's a significant price increase (let's all hope), then that takes just about all incentive out of buying ASICs once those chips are eaten up. Payback would be around a year at that point... fairly risky in the world of Bitcoin. You guys do this exact same dance with every single scammer, and you never see it coming somehow. Here's a hint, they all give you these bullshit excuses. Over and over again, and you all throw your money at them and thank them, then act completely stunned when they bolt with it. Here's a test of BFL's legitimacy. That ASIC you're blowing money on, have you even seen a prototype? Any evidence that it would even work if it did ship? Any evidence that the design behind it is sound? Anything at all? It is very obvious they are actually working on the project. They aren't outright scammers. They gave optimistic estimates for when they could ship, with the stipulation that that ship date may be pushed back in the event that something goes wrong. Something went wrong. It isn't any more complicated than that. If they were going to take everyone's money and run, it would have been done a long time ago. They are very likely losing money by having to give out refunds vs the number of new orders they might be taking in. I see we're still in the "defend the scammers" phase of this particular scam. I have no dog in this fight at all, just sort of watching it all go down from afar. That being said, why can't BFL be more open with everything they are doing here?
The same reason as always, they're running a scam, and they can't let too much out at one time, or people here (might) wise up to it. I doubt that level of caution is necessary. People are already giving them money and they don't even have a prototype yet. People are talking about weeks until shipment, when the chips haven't even been tested. They haven't even been made. If you see any ASICs from this company, it'll be years from now. Called it. Thanks for finally giving us the reason behind the delay Josh. 100,000 chips is 7.5*100,000 = 750TH/s. Unless there's a significant price increase (let's all hope), then that takes just about all incentive out of buying ASICs once those chips are eaten up. Payback would be around a year at that point... fairly risky in the world of Bitcoin. You guys do this exact same dance with every single scammer, and you never see it coming somehow. Here's a hint, they all give you these bullshit excuses. Over and over again, and you all throw your money at them and thank them, then act completely stunned when they bolt with it. Here's a test of BFL's legitimacy. That ASIC you're blowing money on, have you even seen a prototype? Any evidence that it would even work if it did ship? Any evidence that the design behind it is sound? Anything at all? BFL's legitimacy is dead simple to assert: they managed to be greatly successful and profitable inventing, making, and selling thousands of FPGA Singles. I have many of them in my very own hands. And if you have a profitable business, the natural human reaction, even for greedy people (the type who may want to defraud), is to simply expand the business, not to do something riskier by defrauding your customers. Pirate paid out for awhile, too. Not that it really matters. Even if they are for real, it just means that they are displaying the professionalism and competence I've come to expect from Bitcoin Businessmen. This whole debacle has been an amateurish joke. They shouldn't have even sold pre-orders if they didn't even have a successful test that guaranteed that they'd actually have a product to sell. Even their PR has been a joke with Josh doing some Jekyll/Hyde shit to insult his own wronged customers. |
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Come on dude, all your ASICS do is SHA-256. That's not rocket science.
According to your definition of "complex" we'd still be using Intel-8080 8-bit microprocessors - because everything else is just toooooo complex.
Frizz, please do make your own ASIC to squash these over-complicating buffoons. I can hardly stand these people that make it sound like manufacturing a custom integrated circuit to calculate billions of crypto-hashes a second with embedded logic on the nano-scale is the slightest bit complex! Plenty of companies manage to do it on a global scale every day. Before they even sell anything, they also do things like produce working prototypes to make sure what they are selling is actually going to work. Oh, wow, bitcoin based business failing to deliver and not refunding customers? Huge shock. If only there were a well-established pattern of this happening time and time again, then people could learn to stop trusting anyone from this community. |
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Called it. Thanks for finally giving us the reason behind the delay Josh. 100,000 chips is 7.5*100,000 = 750TH/s. Unless there's a significant price increase (let's all hope), then that takes just about all incentive out of buying ASICs once those chips are eaten up. Payback would be around a year at that point... fairly risky in the world of Bitcoin. You guys do this exact same dance with every single scammer, and you never see it coming somehow. Here's a hint, they all give you these bullshit excuses. Over and over again, and you all throw your money at them and thank them, then act completely stunned when they bolt with it. Here's a test of BFL's legitimacy. That ASIC you're blowing money on, have you even seen a prototype? Any evidence that it would even work if it did ship? Any evidence that the design behind it is sound? Anything at all? |
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Not to mention losing all of your dollars is obviously a LOL reason to stop accepting dollars. In fact, if someone gave that reason you would know there was a lot more to it than they admit or that it was just false.
Dollars are also accepted everywhere, and if they are hacked from your bank account, they are insured and will be returned. Nothing in Bitcoin offers that. |
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I'm sure it'd be pretty painless for them if they used bitpay... Maybe it's time to make them reconsider?
Looks like they'd rather just take money. If that gets stolen, it is insured and they can actually get it back. |
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