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181  Other / Off-topic / Re: Butterfly Labs - Bitforce Single and Rig Box on: March 15, 2012, 04:00:52 PM
Oh, they are probably all busy cutting big holes in the bottom of the enclosures and mounting the 2nd fan.

Actually, they are moving to a heat-pipe design. The second fan will become optional (but the case will not have to be modified to add one) according to the latest I got from them.


CAD drawings they sent me: http://imgur.com/a/CXD8g

Indeed, and they told me that any orders done in March would receive that version.
182  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Wonder who this solominer is? 88.6.216.9 on: March 15, 2012, 03:56:22 PM
oh ffs, any forced TX fee will be top the detriment of BTC. Let the market decide!
Market forces are incredibly strong, you guys are not giving it enoug credit.

Forced fee of 0.01BTC today would be 5$ cents, ok that's not much for MOST of us, but how about africans? Indians? In Africa 36.2% of people live with under 1$ a day! GDP per capita is just 1200$ while in US it is 48147$, so that 0.01BTC works about 40 times higher for africans relative to their income, now would you pay 2$ per transaction? (Adjusted by living standards would probably be more like 5$)
Whoops, you just closed down 922 million people market from BTC by introducing TX fees! :O

TX fees will happen, no matter what, when block rewards go down, and more people see value in BTC. Bitcoin is still very small and niche. How many Bitcoin users are there currently? Not that many!
Market cap for all BTC too is very low still.

People will start paying TX fees overtime, introducing now any rules to stop 0 tx blocks, forced TX fees etc. would hinder bitcoin, maybe even to the point it never becomes widely adopted *oops*

The protocol is not broken, there is nothing to fix, 0 TX blocks are not an exploit or an attack.
Want TX Fees? By all means increase the required TX for Your blocks.

Eventually ppl will start including more TX fees. Last 24hrs was 6730 transactions which is extremely low when thinking globally. Now when we start reaching 100k transactions a day, which is still very low, if 0.1% includes a TX fee of 0.01, that is 1BTC a day - still very small by any standard. When we are close to having all 21million BTC in circulation, and active userbase of 100million, we are talking about something like 50million+ transactions a month. At this time even if just 25% miners adopt a minimum of 0.001BTC fee, people will be incentivized to gve TX fees, say 2% choose to include them at the minimum level that is 1000BTC a month already, still for smaller user base than PP has!

Average PP account has about 40$ on it, so at this point BTC has to be *at least* 19.04$ each (see my post in economics), but as BTC people tend to hoard them as investment etc. and no sane person keeps much money in PP, we can safely quadruple this to 160$, meaning each BTC is atleast 80$ worth -> 80k $ worth of TX fees a month with still very small adoption!
And to be honest, i see more like people having BIG balances as their savings etc. So we could probably increase that still *10 fold*.

If Bitcoin becomes a true success, to which there is currently no objections, we are going to see more like an user base of *2 billion*.
With same ratios of 2 transaction every other day per active user average, with 2% paying TX fees of 0.001BTC, that all of sudden becomes: 20 000BTC or 3 200 000$ a month in TX fees. More than 100k $ a day, more than 4k $ an hour, something like 700$ per block!

And you want to be greedy now, and slow that day from happening? (Greedyness is one of the biggest reasons new and inexperienced companies fail, hell, even i have fallen to that bear trap with a very popular site making hundreds of revenue daily!)

FYI, transaction fees has to be voluntary and arbitrary, so we can allow people a way to transfer cheaply very low quantities also (there is currently some forced fee for very tiny transactions tho, isn't it there?) for micropayments etc. other things which cannot be done with today's money gateways.

Think about a situation where BTC replaces Paypal ... And that is just the beginning!
TX Fees will happen, people will see value in that, especially if the benefits of including TX fees are heavily advertised by miners: Be included faster, support the strength of the cluster etc.

183  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Ordered myself a Raspberry Pi on: March 15, 2012, 08:45:45 AM
You cant, unless there is some sort of crazy usb to pci-e device =)  I'm pretty sure the use for these with mining would be as a host for FPGAs or maybe to run monitoring on a farm.  You could probably also run P2Pool on this if you wanted to.

there might be, i saw some article for external vidcards for laptops once ... Seemed vaporware tho. or maybe 1st of April joke.
Nope, they are real. They use PCMCIA cards or Expresscards and convert to PCI and/or PCIe. Here is one example of such a product: http://www.netstor.com.tw/_03/03_02.php?ODI

Yeah but in question was USB to PCI-E Smiley
notice how that netstor product looks a bit like BFL Rig Box? XD
184  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Wonder who this solominer is? 88.6.216.9 on: March 15, 2012, 08:13:49 AM
That simple can not be true because I want to be the first who finds a flaw in (double) sha256 and make bitcoins that way.

btw, I'm sure there is a way to find collisions or even create a specific hash value, I'm just not sure if it will be found before 2^256 is possible to bruteforce.

ehrm... don't tell this anyone but .... Bitcoin mining is bruteforcing it! *looks shadily around hoping no one heard that*

XD
185  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Ordered myself a Raspberry Pi on: March 15, 2012, 08:07:37 AM
You cant, unless there is some sort of crazy usb to pci-e device =)  I'm pretty sure the use for these with mining would be as a host for FPGAs or maybe to run monitoring on a farm.  You could probably also run P2Pool on this if you wanted to.

there might be, i saw some article for external vidcards for laptops once ... Seemed vaporware tho. or maybe 1st of April joke.
186  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Mining resources hosting/leasing service, worth it? on: March 15, 2012, 07:21:08 AM
I'd totally lease some BFL singles for you for a couple of months to try, but not wanting to take the risk on setup costs and a longer term contract for a new player in the market I'd be wary just now.
I don't like paying annually or semi-annually for hardware leasing anyway - lease my seedboxes and VPS on a month-by-month basis.

Essentially though, what you're offering is mining contracts. Why not just offer in terms of raw Mh/s rather than based on what sort of hardware it is?

Regardless, if you can sort out the issues, I'll be a customer - paying $0.33/KWH equivalent here  Roll Eyes

It's easier to sort with just devices, but yeah, it could be marketed as such.
Those terms are created so that we can still reap the important reward -> upfront ROI on the HW.
Dropping setup fees would mean that we are essentially donating money Sad
In any case, 75€ is not much! Smiley

That is some BAD electrical rate :O
187  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Mining resources hosting/leasing service, worth it? on: March 15, 2012, 06:21:22 AM
I pay around 0.11 USD/kwh after all the taxes and fees and such..

So if I understand, the numbers you give in the first post "7970: 515.4€" for 1 year paid in 6 month segments. At 0.18 USD/kwh it looks like it'll take you roughly 2 years to pay off the cards. Not bad I suppose if you already have the infrastructure and are able to keep those cards occupied by clients 100% of the time. When not rented by clients I suppose they could mine for your own account and you'll just have to hope that the price per bitcoin climbs out of this 5 USD/BTC plateau we seem to be at.

Will be interesting to see how your service turns out. I don't think I'll take advantage of it at this point as I think I have a way to get power at 0.07 to 0.08 USD/kwh which will make HD 5830s incredibly viable for myself.
+75€ if you want to pay monthly.

Exactly, i will keep them mining if there is no takers, so opportunity cost is very low.

I also get the 7970s substantially cheaper than say NewEgg listing price, that helps too Smiley

515.4€ = 670.02$ so it's barely above the GPU price for the 1st year. I fail to see how that is NOT a good deal for someone short in capital?
188  Other / Off-topic / Re: Butterfly Labs - Bitforce Single and Rig Box on: March 15, 2012, 04:50:58 AM
Well, i bited and purchased my first 2 units.
Money reserved for next 5 after these arrive.

and i still got 7 new GPUs to setup too :/
189  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Mining resources hosting/leasing service, worth it? on: March 15, 2012, 04:46:15 AM
In the end it is too expensive for most non-European users. Your very high power cost will require relatively high rates for this service for anyone outside of the EU. In the US by my calculations it costs me about $240 per HD 5830 for the card, the chassis to run it in(split across 5 cards) and then the power to run the card. I currently run out of my garage where I vent the waste heat(in winter months I had the cards in the basement to heat the house). I am looking at a small industrial warehouse with a pair of roof vent fans to run out of as my operation grows. This will drop my power costs as I'll be on an "industrial" plan instead of a residential plan so it further makes your operation cost ineffective to myself.

However! For Europeans who seem to have much higher power costs your service might be quite useful. The other case would be users who don't want to manage their farm as it grows. Unfortunately at this point though mining is mostly a hobby for some people and a serious investment for others. The first group enjoys running their farm, the second group saw this as a way to make money and would be turned off by losing possible profit.

From european individuals i have to charge 23% VAT Sad
How much are you paying for electricity?

I was also thinking for serious miners a faster way to grow, as there is no serious upfront costs, just the operational.
For me the benefit would be from economies of scale and long term prospects.
That way you could get additional 6Ghash/s today instead of just 1Ghash/s for the same money paid today, as an example.

The 7970 1st year costs on this should be less than the GPU + Electricity cost even for most US based miners.

We shall see, a lot of this i have to setup in any case, and when it's all setup there might be interest all of sudden, and definitively would consider mainstreamers would be interested, those without know how or willingness to setup their own GPU farms, and those which just want to support Bitcoin and enjoy some profit at the go.

See if you pay 75€ setup + 43€ for the GPU to be brought online today for ~600Mhash/s, instead of paying ~450€ just to get the GPU, you can purchase full 2Ghash/s from me to have online TODAY. That equals the cost of SINGLE GPU. It leaves me to finance the remainder 3 GPUs + node + supportive/overhead hardware. Platinum cert PSUs are *NOT* cheap.

The difference is: 70$ or 280$ revenue on the first month.

First year 4xGPU Setup: 2060€ fees collected by me.
Cost of 4xGPU + PSU + Mobo + CPU + RAM @ Newegg is roughly: 1963€ excluding PCI-E risers, Fans, power cabling, electricity costs, space costs, CPU heatsink.
At 0.06$/kWh, if that system consumes 750W: 302€ for the year, combining for 2263€ costs for you (Plus what 100€ for the other HW, plus space?), meaning for 1st year you STILL get ahead.

190  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Wonder who this solominer is? 88.6.216.9 on: March 15, 2012, 03:12:14 AM
sub'd

This is indeed rather curious. I guess no ne has more info about the mystery miner ...
Let's just hope if it's some όber powerful ASIC rest of us will gain access to it as well.
191  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Is BFL causing the difficulty increase? on: March 15, 2012, 01:58:39 AM
I've noticed the price seems to be more or less level at the moment, but difficulty is steadily increasing. And this seems to have been the trend since everyone found out the BFL Singles are actually real..

Is this difficulty increase due to so many people ordering BFL Singles?
After reading through https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67887.0, it made me realise just how popular these things are, with some people ordering 10+, which is gonna make difficulty shoot higher surely.

Are GPUs finally becoming obselete in the next couple of months as people get their BFL Singles delivered?

What's your opinions on this?

GPUs still buy more Mhash / $/€/BTC, while having lower efficiency.
I see GPUs being ran side by side with FPGAs, those who have low electricity rates can operate GPUs quite profitably, while those with high priced electricity will opt for FPGAs.

ASICs however is going to be an killer application, a game changer most likely.
192  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: wierd pause on newly mined blocks - no blocks for 56mins? on: March 15, 2012, 01:56:03 AM
heh you missed the day with 1 block in 2hrs just as the current difficulty started Wink

oh X)
Just thought variance would be smaller, but i guess not! Smiley
193  Other / Off-topic / Re: Butterfly Labs - Bitforce Single and Rig Box on: March 15, 2012, 01:54:48 AM
Ahhhh, it all makes sense now!  Annual billing especially.  It's like some sort of weird hedge on future prices.

I was kind of wondering if you might be talking about the effective 30-60 day lag between monthly billings of electricity, but didn't even know annual billing existed.

Sorry, I've just dealt with too many idiots here who didn't understand it.  I assumed you weren't any different.  My bad.  Wink

Same effect happens when you simply can pay off your electricity bills regularly without selling any BTC.
It's nothing special, just a matter of financial effectiveness.
194  Bitcoin / Mining / wierd pause on newly mined blocks - no blocks for 56mins? on: March 15, 2012, 12:52:18 AM
http://blockchain.info/

During the turn from 14th to 15th there was 56minute gap in new blocks.
Only reason i noticed was because i was waiting for some transactions to go through.

Does this happen often, i thought it shouldn't? What are the odds of that just happening by chance ... Probably just chance but i would think odds of 1hr with only 1 block mined has quite low odds.
195  Other / Off-topic / Re: Butterfly Labs - Bitforce Single and Rig Box on: March 15, 2012, 12:39:54 AM
If you mine 25 BTC for $250 of electricity, instead of BUYING 50 BTC for $250, then you are out 25 BTC.

If BTC is worth $1000 in the future, then you'd have $25,000 from mining or $50,000 from buying them directly.

What assumptions/projections are you using that change this?

Who said i don't do both?
On another one of my locations electricity is billed annually ...
So if i don't mine today when rates are at $1, but when electricity bill comes and BTC is worth 10$ ... oops
Assuming i actually need to sell BTC to pay that.

Electricity bill always arrives at least month later, so if i mined at 5$ then stop when it's at $1 and then sell BTC to cover electricity while i were mining at 5$ ... ooops!

Only thing what matters is value at sale time - not anything else, absolute nothing else.
If i stop mining while value is low, it's equivalently more time to put off the ROI, 1:1 relation.
Some of us can afford not to dance at the edge of cash flow right now, in order to maximize gain.

Infact, i've yet to sell a single BTC of my mining profits. I used BTC to purchase some of my rigs last summer tho, when BTC was at all time high.

But, oh please, oh please, DO by all means shutdown your rigs down when value visits a little bit lower Grin
196  Bitcoin / Mining support / Re: BAMT won't OC anymore on: March 15, 2012, 12:08:35 AM
Hi
go to /bamt/status/active  and delete files to enble GPU overclocking.
It work for my!

thanks, but there is no /bamt dir ...

Now this happened to other GPU, no crash involved or anything, all of sudden just overclocks are gone!
noticed because hashing rate dropped a bit on the cluster ...
197  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: FPGA crowdsourced "Data Center" Options and Ideas? on: March 14, 2012, 11:47:17 PM
My best offering I think would be my power costs. Currently at $0.00 KW/h.

I have a very nice lease agreement to be sure. 4 years remaining too :-D
Hahaha, that's a sweet deal! Smiley
Just don't tell me now that floor space is something like 20€/m2 XD
198  Other / Off-topic / Re: Butterfly Labs - Bitforce Single and Rig Box on: March 14, 2012, 11:33:46 PM
whats the reasoning you guys are using to buy these instead of ICARUS fpga's.

just curious.

Rig box should get 20Mh/w and was priced (when I bought them) at $25k each. That's $0.50/Mh which is pretty darn good unless you are really bargain hunting for GPUs and the other items needed to run them.

When the subsidy halves, we will see a lot of GPU miner become unprofitable with 2Mh/w to 5Mh/w unless the price rises substantially. I doubt the price will jump like this in lock step with the halving (I've been wrong before) so we should see the same thing we saw when the price went to $2. Miners will quit.

I'm targeting long term goals, so even if price goes down now to 1$ i will keep my miners operational. I see all of this as a risk investment and my goals are set on not what BTC is today, but what it is 1,3,5,10years from now. If best case scenario happens in 10-15years i can retire off my mining earnings from the 2$ days or whatever the low point is going to be. Hence i mostly invest outside money to my rigs. Right now i'm on 2nd investment period and i've yet to sell single BTC (quite the contrary).
My initial miners were bought with 10€ BTC investment from year earlier, which was worth at peak something like 7500€ .... Looking back now i should've sold 90% of my BTC back then XD
It makes no sense to mine for BTC when you're doing it at a loss.

If you mine 25 BTC for $250 of electricity, but the price per BTC was $5 and you could have bought 50 BTC for $250, then you just lost 25 BTC.

ONLY if you care about today's value - Like i explained, i'm working on assumptions/projections of value after a period of time, not what it is worth today.

EDIT: Actually, at least for me, 7970 is by far the best value. I can get new 7970s for same price as 5970s right now, without the hassle of needing to search and scout, and get out of warranty used cards. No thanks. And i can get them TODAY, means 1½-2months of revenue before BFL Singles would arrive.
199  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: FPGA crowdsourced "Data Center" Options and Ideas? on: March 14, 2012, 11:01:12 PM
Where in the Rockies? I'm out in Boulder myself. The biggest thing I'd be interest in is a place to co-lo my growing HD 5970s farm.. I'm a lowly apartment dweller and don't have the ability to feed any more juice to my farm. However, I might also be interested in a share of a crowdsourced FPGA farm.
Take a look at, which might help you scale more: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68634.0
and give feedback! Smiley

Actually it's somewhat same as on this thread but oversimplified and turn into a traditional hosting service.
(Sorry, not meaning to thread hijack, just saw my idea could be helpful!)
200  Other / Off-topic / Re: Butterfly Labs - Bitforce Single and Rig Box on: March 14, 2012, 10:57:59 PM
whats the reasoning you guys are using to buy these instead of ICARUS fpga's.

just curious.

Rig box should get 20Mh/w and was priced (when I bought them) at $25k each. That's $0.50/Mh which is pretty darn good unless you are really bargain hunting for GPUs and the other items needed to run them.

When the subsidy halves, we will see a lot of GPU miner become unprofitable with 2Mh/w to 5Mh/w unless the price rises substantially. I doubt the price will jump like this in lock step with the halving (I've been wrong before) so we should see the same thing we saw when the price went to $2. Miners will quit.

I'm targeting long term goals, so even if price goes down now to 1$ i will keep my miners operational. I see all of this as a risk investment and my goals are set on not what BTC is today, but what it is 1,3,5,10years from now. If best case scenario happens in 10-15years i can retire off my mining earnings from the 2$ days or whatever the low point is going to be. Hence i mostly invest outside money to my rigs. Right now i'm on 2nd investment period and i've yet to sell single BTC (quite the contrary).
My initial miners were bought with 10€ BTC investment from year earlier, which was worth at peak something like 7500€ .... Looking back now i should've sold 90% of my BTC back then XD
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