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You blame us because you lost some of your life savings due to a bad investment that you made?
You need to be comfortable with completely losing any money you "invest" in bitcoin. If you are not you're doing it wrong.
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statistically speaking your first statement is correct. However in the short run, it is possible for people to end up with more money then they started with. Actually I just realized I told a lie earlier. I have played a ponzi game before. A long time ago I put in 4.5BTC (when it was a lot less) into a ponzi game for fun and withdrew it a few days later at a 10% profit. A few months back I also invested 0.01BTC into a ponzi to see how their custom multi-cryptocurrency payment system worked as it looked cool and I also ended up making some money from it. In both cases I made a profit in the short run. The house edge is also known prior to a gambler playing (at least it is advertised) What is the negative expected value of poker? it varies and the casino is not actively trying to cheat/deceive the gambler (as you described how a ponzi player would be a "good" ponzi player)
I didn't actually mean it like that, but rather a good ponzi player would be trying to outplay other ponzi players, the owner "could" be another ponzi player. |
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I am not saying any of that. My argument is that I feel that any ponzi "game" operator are going to scam. I personally think anyone who invests in a ponzi is a sucker who will eventually be parted with their money several times over.
I think that anyone who is actively promoting ponzis (that I think will eventually scam) are enabling the scam that will eventually happen
I think that anyone who plays a dice site is a sucker and will be parted with their money several times over due to the house edge. I think that anyone promoting dice sites are enabling others to lose money. |
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I find it quite funny how many people here supports for free market trade, against regulation etc but once something like an honest ponzi comes around suddenly they are like "THIS WEBSITE IS ILLEGAL OMG GOVERNMENT SAVE ME AND SHUT DOWN THIS ILLEGAL WEBSITE. EVERYONE WHO SUPPORTS THEM SHOULD BE ARRESTED NSA USE 0DAYZ TO PWN THE OWNERS AND JAIL THEM". The ponzi doesn't lie, it does exactly what it says it will do, if people want to play ponzi's knowing the risks then let them.
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It is likely that the ponzi site is going to steal all investor money in one swoop, not over any period of time. The first sign of trouble is that no one received their payout even though some people should. The ponzi "game" would obviously be abandoned and the operator would create a new account to repeat the process. The skill is to try and determine when the site will stop paying. This may start with obvious signs like late or missed payments, but it may also be when the owner decides the ponzi has gotten to a certain size. So estimating the size of the ponzi funds and the rate it is growing at is is another way to tell. A really skilled player may even decide to invest more funds when they think the owner is going to close up in order to try and prolong the ponzi. The ponzi operator will have an unlimited amount of time to launder/mix bitcoin to make it appear that they are not playing against their players. The players on the other hand will have a much shorter time frame to check this. From what I have seen, many people "reinvest" their money back into the ponzi after receiving payouts so seeing money go from the ponzi back into the ponzi would be expected
Well if the owner is using mixers then a skilled player will find out which ones he is using and ignore payments that are tainted by those mixers. And of course they reinvest, you should reinvest if you think it is still likely to pay out. Point is, not all ponzi's are scams, don't paint them all with the same brush. |
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Well Michael, this is the 2nd time you have used your position on the default trust list to try to censor my actions. I don't see it as censoring your actions at all. He made a valid point. They can also get screwed if the operator of the game decides he has enough money to make it worth his while to run away with investor money Thats the case with pretty much any Bitcoin business. Remember mybitcoin.com? A ponzi is a ponzi. The game is based on building up trust. It works like this, the ponzi operator first either buys up or creates a bunch of newbie accounts to act as their shills. Then then use a mixing service to spread out their own money into various addresses to make it look like each address is coming from a different person. When they start the ponzi game few other people will "invest" however the shills will push the ponzi game and will vouch when they end up winning. This makes it appear that they are trustworthy. The next round a few more people will play along with the shills. The shills will obviously all win and the "real" people will sometimes win but at a lower then expected rate. Their trust is now built up a little more. The process continues until the ponzi "game" operator is trusted by various "players" enough so that they control a very large amount of bitcoin at one time. And you have proof that every single ponzi website on BitcoinTalk goes through this same procedure? Because it seems you are leaving negative trust on EVERY ponzi website. Of course ponzi's have risks and some may be untrustworthy, but I don't think you have investigated all of those websites that you negged enough to know if they are untrustworthy. You were just blindly giving out negs to every ponzi site. |
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aren't ponzi schemes illegal anyway?
So are gambling websites that don't have the proper gambling licenses, so are Bitcoin exchanges that do not have the proper money transmitter licenses or AML procedures and so are lenders that don't abide by payday loan laws. |
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In an honest game of chance the odds should estimatable by the player, yes. A ponzi isn't a game of chance, it is more skill based like poker. You need to know which ponzi to "invest" in, get in early and get out at the first sign of trouble and know how to spot signs of trouble too. How could anyone figure out if the operator or his alts was in the queue?
If the operator promised.............lol Thats like saying how can you figure out your opponents hand in a game of poker. A good ponzi player will use things like blockchain analysis and his experience to try and figure that out, similar to how a poker player uses 'tells' to try and figure out his opponents hand. |
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Until it can be proved that the operator of the scheme or his alts are not in the queue for payment, a queue that they can both anticipate and manipulate, then players in the "game" cannot possibly know that the returns that are promised are achievable.
In an honest ponzi, the returns should not be guaranteed. It is up to the players to figure out if the operator is in the queue. Being able to detect such schemes is a skill a good ponzi player should have. If the operator promised he wasn't in the payment queue and later on it was found that he was, then he would be untrustworthy, but if no such promise was made then thats a risk the players take when playing the ponzi. |
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I don't understand why people hate the honest ponzi games so much. It's gambling and not a scam as the owners are being truthful about what it is.
Why are people upset about them so much? yes they need their own section, preferably a subsection in gambling, but how can a website be "untrustworthy" when they are being upfront and truthful about everything? and if people want to risk their money playing them knowing what they are, why do you care?
I don't play the ponzi games, but I don't care if others want to.
Exactly, so do you consider it "just" or "right" for them to give negative trust to these Honest games? Absolutely not. Say I made the following post: Send BTC to 16EJ8oEeFpGU6TcQKHMBedZTbVGRwHCWaZ and you will get nothing back Does that make me untrustworthy? No, because I'd be fulfilling the "contract". The same applies with the ponzi's, at least the "honest" ones that let the gamblers know it is actually a ponzi, the "this-is-totally-not-a-ponzi" ponzi's is a different story, those could warrant negative trust if the owner was lying and saying it wasn't a ponzi. I don't see how you can call it scamming when the other person fulfills his/her side of the deal. |
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I don't understand why people hate the honest ponzi games so much. It's gambling and not a scam as the owners are being truthful about what it is. Why are people upset about them so much? yes they need their own section, preferrably a subsection in gambling, but how can a website be "untrustworthy" when they are being upfront and truthful about everything? and if people want to risk their money playing them knowing what they are, why do you care? I don't play the ponzi games, but I don't care if others want to. Argument #1: Ponzi sites are illegalSo are gambling websites that don't have the proper gambling licenses. So are Bitcoin exchanges that do not have the proper money transmitter licenses or AML procedures. So are lenders that don't abide by payday loan laws. So are public performances of the song "Happy birthday to you" which is copyrighted by Warner/Chappell Music. Argument #2: All ponzi sites are a scamIf the ponzi site fulfills their side of the deal and does exactly what they promise and both parties are willingly trading, where did the scam occur? Argument #3: Ponzi's should be banned because they make Bitcoin look "bad"Instead of banning ponzi's, why don't we make things a bit better and form a mining cartel, make a blacklist of bitcoin addresses known to be used by ponzi sites and never confirm any ponzi site payments?  The general ethos of Bitcoin is for free market trade and against regulation. How can you actually believe that and at the same time be trying to ban people from using Bitcoin because it makes Bitcoin look bad? Argument #4: Most ponzi sites aren't provably fair so they are scamsThere is probably a way to make ponzi sites provably fair using tx scripts. But if ponzi sites are a scam due to the lack of provably fair, then so are all gambling sites that don't have provably fair, such as poker sites and sportsbook websites. Argument #5: Ponzi's arent entertainmentPeople have different opinions on what entertainment is. It may not be entertaining for you, but I'm sure its entertaining for others. Argument #6: Ponzi's are scams because people will lose moneyThere will always be people who lose money on any gambling website. Otherwise the website would be losing money. Thats all the arguments I can think of right now. |
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He's enjoying his hookers and coke
I think he's a little young for that kind of stuff. |
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Cool! where did you get the keys from?
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well, i hope blockchain wallet not going hacked  is blockchain ever hacked once ? You mean blockchain.info/wallet? yes they've had their fair amount of screw ups, recently with an RNG bug that actually worked similar to the attack mentioned above, but they have covered almost all losses so far. I would recommend NOT using that service. |
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Mark is not only DPR, Satoshi, but also Jesus, Mohammad, Buddha and the Lizard King all rolled in one!!!
Whoa! screencapping this. Now we all know the truth and I have the proof right here. Is he Santa Claus too? |
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Yeah I heard that too. I heard he's moot too and is in Lizard Squad and he hacked Sony for Kim Jung Un, it all adds up when you think about it.
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Old news. This attack (bugged ECDSA implementation) has been known about for a long long time, before Bitcoin even existed. The attacker must first create a compromised version of ECDSA. This is achieved with a kleptographic 'SETUP', or 'Secretly Embedded Trapdoor with Embedded Protection', which was first described in a 1997 paper by Adam Young and Moti Yung. One of the weaknesses of cold storage is if your cold storage machine is compromised, you're fucked and there is almost nothing you can do to prevent that. There are many many ways an attacker can exfiltrate the private keys from a compromised cold storage machine, including as used in this case a bugged ECDSA implementation. |
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At the very least you should sign a message with the 1111F8t address to prove it's yours.
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How many times have you said this already? Just as I thought, you're gonna keep lingering around under new alts and not actually leave.
Nobody ever leaves this forum. They always come back. |
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