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3841  Economy / Economics / Re: Deflation and Bitcoin, the last word on this forum on: September 06, 2011, 02:25:39 PM
I'll buy everything you have for twice that right now.
3842  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: bitcoin vs solidcoin on: September 05, 2011, 03:57:47 AM
vlad, your talking about open source software.... the same goes for all other open source software, its down to peer review..... or is linux/gnu also evil then?

Well, we're half talking about open source software.

SolidCoin isn't open source any more. CoinHunter decided to throw a hissy fit and blame Bitcoin for something ArtForz did, and SolidCoin's _new_ license says you need his permission to modify the source, and it also expressly prohibits the Bitcoin team from using any "fixes" that CoinHunter makes.

So we're talking about an open-source cryptocurrency, and a closed-source cryptocurrency that is a mostly direct copy of the open-source one. Except for a few "improvements" that turned out to be easily exploitable security screwups.

Considering that he took the source code straight from bitcoin, and has admitted such, he literally is in direct violation of the license that he agreed to by taking bitcoin's source code.  If anyone is getting sued, it's him.
3843  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Forum moderation policy on: September 04, 2011, 03:34:31 AM
Being free and libertarian is good and all but allowing a platform to trolls who frequently make callous, vicious, and mean spirited attacks between members is ridiculous.  The forum should accept that there is a big difference between being heavy handed and the middle way response of promoting mature, rational, and responsible behavior on the board.  To not do that, in my opinion, is irresponsible and harms bitcoin.

Thanks for your input.  And note, if you will, that "callous, vicious, and mean spirited" is entirely subjective.  Subjectively, "in my opinion, is irresponsible and harms bitcoin" in reference to the style of moderation that the establishment has chosen to promote, could be interpreted exactly the same way.  Just because your not cursing, doesn't change this perspective.  And yet, you will not find a single mod here that would censor yourself over this opinion about us.  Manners would be a grand thing to have, but some members don't, and we simply couldn't force manners even if we had the time.  If you feel strongly about this, I recommend that you start another forum, with rules of your own liking, and invite a few of the early adopters to participate.
3844  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: bitcoin vs solidcoin on: September 03, 2011, 04:16:44 AM
Which ones?  You, incorrectly, assume that economists agree that the deflationary model is universally bad.  That is not the case, and only Keynesians agree with one another on this point, and Monetarist depending upon conditions.  Austrians, almost never. 

Can you point me to Mises, Hayek, Rothbard or any other respected Austrian saying that deflation is superior to inflation? I'm pretty sure they advocated for price stability rather than deflation.
I didn't say superior.  Try to check your assumptions.
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The gold standard was, due to rising population rates, generally deflationary over long stretches of time, and only inflationary for short stretches and in regions with close economic ties to the new found sources of gold.

Actually the gold standard was mostly inflationary. Between 1880 and 1914 the average annual inflation rate was 0.1%, and from 1914 to 1932 it was 1.43%.

A gentle, predictable deflation is at least as economicly benign as a gentle, predictable inflationary currency. 

Can you expand on this? I believe deflation discourages spending, investing, lending and borrowing, making the economy contract. I can't see it as being benign in any way, no matter how gentle and predictable.
I can't speak to your beliefs, but there is no evidence that a predictable deflationary environment is worse or better than a predictable inflationary environment.  Yet, savings of capital must precede economic growth.  Liquidity, alone, does not substitute for real capital.  If it did, stimulus would work.
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The high (but declining) inflation is somewhat contradicted by it's predictability, which helps to assure early adopters and speculators (same thing, mostly) that the currency will have value in the distant future, once the inflation rate levels off.

The predictability of the supply does nothing to assure the future value of the currency. Value is subjective, so it is tied to human psychology, not to a technical feature. Currently the value of Bitcoin is being held by speculators believing that it will become a mainstream currency. If it starts looking like it won't achieve this objective then people will start cashing out and the price will go down.

It's irrelevant, in this context, that value is subjective.  The predictablilty of the monetary base removes one, significant, future variable.  Namely the ability of a third party to affect the monetary base, such as a central bank.  The declining nature of the inflation also provides a growing variable of stability into the forseeable future.  These features do, indeed, something to assure the future value of the currency.  They help to assure that it's not zero, for a number of reasons.
3845  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: bitcoin vs solidcoin on: September 03, 2011, 02:21:26 AM

What is your current opinion on demurrage?

No gold storage vault would ever charge the user so much for storage that the balance was gone after a year or two.
I wasn't suggesting that extreme of a rate... Freicoin is going to be 1% a year.

First, how?  And second, demurrage based upon value of the transactions isn't really demurrage.  It doesn't have the same incentives as a fee relative to the age of the transaction.  But both have negative effects.
3846  Other / Off-topic / Re: The story of Bold Funding. on: September 03, 2011, 01:24:29 AM

Your not-so-fun facts need checking.

Seriously.  Without even going into the accuracy of the source, or how the wikipedia article author came up with those numbers, the amount of foreign currency reserves that it claims for China is expressed in US dollar values.  The Central Bank of China doesn't actually keep it's currency reserves in US Federal Reserve Notes.  Much of those reserves are Euros, and many other currencies besides, not limited to Brazil, Argentina and Australia; China's most important non-domestic commodities source nations.
Yeah, way ahead of you Tongue

Got a correct estimate of USD held by China?

And what difference does it make if they keep physical notes?  Is it that the Federal Reserve can just freeze their account in the event of funny business?

The idea that the Fed would consider freezing the accounts of China for any reason short of an overt act of war is laughable.  Such a thing would literally destroy the US economy and the currency.
3847  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: bitcoin vs solidcoin on: September 03, 2011, 01:21:06 AM

What is your current opinion on demurrage?


I've discussed this topic in the past, and since Bitcoin is intended to model gold's resource extraction curve (and the secure storage of gold is demurrage) I don't have issues with the concept.  However, in the past I couldn't imagine (and neither could anyone else IMHO) a ruleset that could be added to Bitcoin (or to an alt currency) that would introduce a mild, market based demurrage without significant risks of unintended consequences.  I had argued that demurrage would not really encourage spending so much as 'churn', but that would also be a good thing for bitcoin because a demurrage based upon the age of a transaction (not it's value) would encourage users who didn't need anominity to consolodate holdings into fewer & newer transactions; thus not only maintaing the profitability of miners (and thus helping to pay for security on savings as well as transactions, increasing the security level in general) and 'rotting' lost coins back into the pool, but also serving to incentive the consolidation of the blockchain itself.  Allowing pruning to be more effective, but efforts towards anonimity less effective or more costly.  The problem was how do you do it?  The system is a set of simple rules that interact.  How do we impliment demurrage such as this?  Solidcoin actually forces this issue, by permitting the old blocks to actually die, however the time period is much too short, and can't be relative to the age of the transaction, as it's either good and free or just gone.  The demurrage model for bitcoin, to be effective without becoming a damaging factor, would have to occur over decades.  No gold storage vault would ever charge the user so much for storage that the balance was gone after a year or two.
3848  Other / Off-topic / Re: The story of Bold Funding. on: September 03, 2011, 01:05:30 AM

Your not-so-fun facts need checking.

Seriously.  Without even going into the accuracy of the source, or how the wikipedia article author came up with those numbers, the amount of foreign currency reserves that it claims for China is expressed in US dollar values.  The Central Bank of China doesn't actually keep it's currency reserves in US Federal Reserve Notes.  Much of those reserves are Euros, and many other currencies besides, not limited to Brazil, Argentina and Australia; China's most important non-domestic commodities source nations.
3849  Economy / Marketplace / Re: MyBitcoin was probably a scam - and if it was, here's who's responsible on: September 03, 2011, 12:57:52 AM
I didn't move this thread, nor have I deleted or moved any threads on this topic.  I locked the pot thread because permitting such things to continue invites legal liability to the ownership of this forum.  This is one reason that this forum is no longer part of bitcoin.org.

I was told Marketplace was the most suitable place for this thread but I've always said it should be in Bitcoin Discussion, so if you moved it back I'd be very pleased.

Done.
3850  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: bitcoin vs solidcoin on: September 03, 2011, 12:52:59 AM
Indeed you are. Well.. go ahead than and do this deflation thing if you want.

This economic model will never work, because we will never get enough people to adopt to it.

Trust me I LOVE Bitcoin technology, but we need to start taking some of the economists that come around here a bit more serious...

Which ones?  You, incorrectly, assume that economists agree that the deflationary model is universally bad.  That is not the case, and only Keynesians agree with one another on this point, and Monetarist depending upon conditions.  Austrians, almost never.  The gold standard was, due to rising population rates, generally deflationary over long stretches of time, and only inflationary for short stretches and in regions with close economic ties to the new found sources of gold.  A gentle, predictable deflation is at least as economicly benign as a gentle, predictable inflationary currency.  Currently, Bitcoin is neither, as it's highly inflationary (of it's monetary base) whilst also being incrediblely predictable.  Bitcoin's value has increased over the past year, as much as it has, only because the size of the bitcoin user base (and thus it's aggregate demand) has increased by several orders of magnitude since I discovered it in April of 2010.  The high (but declining) inflation is somewhat contradicted by it's predictability, which helps to assure early adopters and speculators (same thing, mostly) that the currency will have value in the distant future, once the inflation rate levels off.

That said, Solidcoin is not a better choice here either, using a much steeper inflationary model followed by a sudden stop.  Solidcoin might prove to have it's place in the market, but not as a direct competitor to Bitcoin.  Namecoin has a nitche.  A localized version of bitcoin might as well.  Solidcoin doesn't seem to have a nitche as far as I can tell.  The sudden stop nature of solidcoin could also prove it's undoing, as the geometric halving of Bitcoin's block reward (potentially) serves the function of weaning a growing market economy off of a subsidy.  If Solidcoin has any success at all at 2022, the sudden stop in block rewards is as likely as not to be a major disruption in the system.  If the market is weak, such a disruption would likely kill it off, even with it's own high degree of predictability.  The reward system in Bitcoin, as well as it's interval, are certainly arbitrary; but they are well considered.
3851  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: bitcoin vs solidcoin on: September 02, 2011, 08:37:07 PM
What does "overspill" mean in this context?

And before it happens, no BitcoinPorn, I don't need a visual image.
3852  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Where will stop, the size of the database bitcoin. 1GB+ on: September 02, 2011, 07:58:24 PM
The hash of a pruned block will not match the hash in the header, and thus a pruned block cannot be verified. 

It doesn't need to be verified.  The client downloads the entire block, verifies it, and then proceeds to prune it to it's own liking.  That is what the merkle tree block structure is for.

Right, but that means that the full block must exist somewhere so the node can download it and verify it.  So while any node can prune, not every node can prune.

And that is why it is reasonable to assume that there will always be at least one person willing to run a full node that does not prune.  It's also why I said that most full clients won't prune anything recent.  As already noted, light clients don't need the full chain anyway, and can start their chain when they create their first address.  Most full clients won't really need a full chain either, and can prune quite extensively and/or start from the most recent trusted checkpoint hash.  All clients do full chains currently, in part, because the network is still very small compared to the expectations, and the many-copies-keep-data-safe method is employed.  The concept of placing a full "quiet" node in orbit, on Earth protected in a safe zone, and eventually on the Moon, as archival devices have been discussed already.  For now, there is neither the need nor the resources to do any such things, but if Bitcoin is as successful as some of us predict, those nodes will be cheap insurance; largely inaccessable to most forms of destruction.  (one or another, but not all, depending on the kind of destruction being considered)
3853  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: bitcoin vs solidcoin on: September 02, 2011, 07:48:01 PM
So many ignorant comments in here... All I have to say is please you guys atleast do your research... you will be shooting yourself in 6 months when SC isn't dead and the price as quatrippled...


As noted, I've done my research.  Some of it, at least.  What I found isn't promising.  I'm willing to stake a bet between us.  What is the currency exchange rate?  Based on the rate today, in six months you buy me $50 worth of Bitcoins (on today's exchange rate) and I'll buy you $50 worth of Solidcoins (also in today's exchange rate).  You can buy those coins at any point along those six months, if you don't aleady have them. 
3854  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Where will stop, the size of the database bitcoin. 1GB+ on: September 02, 2011, 05:38:27 PM
There isn't any real need for a large number of nodes that keep a full copy of the blockchain.  There probably isn't any real need for any node to keep a full copy of the blockchain unpruned at all.  Pruning of transaction data that 1) is older than a certain period of time, say three months or15K blocks or so and 2) has been referenced (spent) and the referencing transaction has been referenced (i.e. the transaction is at least two transactions long spent) will eventually result in a fairly stable blockchain size that mostly varies by transaction volumes over those three months.  Some clients won't keep spent transactions unpruned at all, and will thus have a much smaller data footprint, growing only by the size of the block headers; which amounts to about 4 megs per year.

That said, some nodes will keep full copies of the blockchain, if only for archival reasons.  It's not neccessary that these nodes have high bandwidth or super powerful machines either.  I have a VPS that can keep up with the blockchain just fine, that I direct my other client(s) to bootstrap and update from, since I don't keep clients running either on my home machine nor my android phone and I don't want either to announce to the network or to the bootstrapping IRC channel that they exist.

The hash of a pruned block will not match the hash in the header, and thus a pruned block cannot be verified. 

It doesn't need to be verified.  The client downloads the entire block, verifies it, and then proceeds to prune it to it's own liking.  That is what the merkle tree block structure is for.
3855  Economy / Marketplace / Re: MyBitcoin was probably a scam - and if it was, here's who's responsible on: September 02, 2011, 05:35:03 PM
I am inclined to give BW the benefit of the doubt based upon the plausibility of his explaination on the events.

MoonShadow, I can appreciate the tack you take here, both in common-sense terms and because I'm a balls-out anarchist. No, neither the judge or prosecutor's words ought to be taken at face value. No, having state permission isn't necessarily the mark of a fair dealer.

I believe, though, that if you look at the documentation uncovered, there are really only a small number of possibilities:

1: The Bold Funding allegations were completely true;
2: The Bold Funding allegations were partly true and partly untrue; or
3: The Bold Funding allegations were completely untrue.

This, I believe, leads to:

A: Bruce did a lot of fraud; or
B: Bruce (believed he) was being railroaded by the system.


Yeah, I'm starting to see it more your way.  Off-book land contracts tend to be shady deals anyway, and those who set up such things are either family of the homeowner or a criminal looking to launder some cash.  People who are willing to deal with such people tend to be criminal in their own right.
3856  Economy / Marketplace / Re: MyBitcoin was probably a scam - and if it was, here's who's responsible on: September 02, 2011, 05:32:37 PM
That moderator scares me on so many levels.

I think he's hilarious. The other day a marijuana dealer came in here and I was starting to string him along inquiring about terracotta pots, when that moderator popped in actually believing I was trying to score some weed. 

No, I knew what you were doing.  I said that you were stupid.  The other guys for trying to deal in contraband on a public forum, and you for getting your identity involved at all.
3857  Economy / Marketplace / Re: MyBitcoin was probably a scam - and if it was, here's who's responsible on: September 02, 2011, 05:31:16 PM
I didn't move this thread, nor have I deleted or moved any threads on this topic.  I locked the pot thread because permitting such things to continue invites legal liability to the ownership of this forum.  This is one reason that this forum is no longer part of bitcoin.org.
3858  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: bitcoin vs solidcoin on: September 02, 2011, 05:40:57 AM
pruned coins will be added as a reward, so 500m will always exist


How do you detect if a coin has been pruned?

I think that they mean that if a coin hasn't been spent or moved by the time it hits the 100K block, it's probably a lost coin and is given to the miner of the next block as that one is destroyed. 
3859  Economy / Marketplace / Re: MyBitcoin was probably a scam - and if it was, here's who's responsible on: September 02, 2011, 05:37:53 AM
Ok, well, if Bruce didn't do anything wrong, he can show us his license, right? He was, after all, required by the law to have a license. Without the license he couldn't have executed those investment contracts, so if he really was helping people, he has a license and can prove to us he has the license.

That's a false logic.  A license is required to perform real estate contracts, legal contractors are presumed to honest, thus any contract that lacks the written permission of the state must be dishonest.  Sorry, but a license doesn't mean your honest and the lack of one doesn't mean your dishonest.  In this case, it means your stupid, but malice still isn't the most likely cause of this breakdown.

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Of course, without the license he actually can't legally do what he claimed to be able to do for homeowners.


Actually, he could.  That's the 'loophole' in a land contract, performed properly.  Still a good idea to use a licensed real estate lawyer to handle the details, but land contracts are legal for anyone in any state.  As I noted before, a land contract is simply a rent to own lease agreement wherein the object being rented is one's own house bought in a short sale prior to forclosure, instead of a tv or a computer from Renta-center.  It is, essentially, a long term lease agreement.  Real estate lawyers can't really make such contracts illegal.  BW's failure was accepting a deposit from potential clients.  If cash wasn't involved, the dogs wouldn't have had anything to hit him with.  If he had shelled out the fees that licensed agents expect, they would have left him alone.

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So what it boils down to is you can claim all you want that we can't trust a judge,


I'm saying you can't trust anyone.  Saying that some judge is trustworthy, because he is a judge, is an appeal to authority, a logical fallacy. 

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and we have to assume that Bruce's lawyer wouldn't appeal if the judge was wrong,


Bruce was broke, remember?  What would he have paid his lawyer with?  They don't work for free, justice belongs to the highest bidder, sometimes. 

Quote
and that Bruce just somehow "accidentally" took money and more money and more money from more and more incoming clients, until he was "overloaded"... I mean, seriously, this isn't like typing in a few numbers. This isn't something that "creeps up on you." Unless maybe you get hit by a car and are in the hospital, but that's not what Bruce claimed.


I'll admit, that part does sound a bit fishy, coming from Bruce himself. 

Quote
So, if he's on the up-and-up, have him produce his license or proof that he had one.

Again, a license doesn't imply honesty.
3860  Economy / Marketplace / Re: MyBitcoin was probably a scam - and if it was, here's who's responsible on: September 02, 2011, 05:13:01 AM
The judge is a lawyer.  You presume that the judge was correct and impartial.  I'm trying to point out that isn't something that should be assumed.  The judge is, more likely, acting under the color of law.  Real estate lawyers don't like it when new guys muscle into their turf, particularly when they find some way to do it without jumping through the legal hoops (i.e. licensing) that they have erected to prevent it.  Lawyers stick together, and don't like it when their brothers are upset.  I've seen this crap in action personally, and I am inclined to give BW the benefit of the doubt based upon the plausibility of his explaination on the events.  Sure, he couldn't produce a single person who had been aided, most likely because his contract with any investors required confidentiality.  Something that the lawyers filing suit would have well known, considering that many (most?) of such land contract investors are persons with an excess of cash reserves who need discrete investment vehicles.  Said more plainly, particularly considering the locale, any investors that BW had would most likely had shady forms of income, and needed a means of washing the dirt of that cash.  Land contracts are infamous for such things, because the mortgage company being paid off does not have any incentive to report suspicious events, the homeowner gets another chance at the American Dream (tm) and even if the investor ends up in prison, no prosecutor is going to go after the house, because they want to keep their jobs. (if they aren't elected, they work for someone who is, and evicting law abiding citizens from their home because they rent from a scumbag is bad press).  And most of the time, civil forfiture laws can't realisticly even take the land contract, because they probably belong to some out of state corporation and not the scumbag in question; funtionally making the seizure of the asset (the contract, not the home) an out of state legal action.  Something that prosecutors aren't likely to do, because they don't like to work hard for small odds of success any more than anyone else does.

And if you had a confidentiality agreement like that with someone like that, would you risk breaking it by actually inviting a homeowner to testify on your behalf?  It's not like the homeowner agreed to keep quiet, and the lawyers are certain to ask the homeowner about the investor.
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