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1  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2013-08-20 SovereignMan: This is the way they'll 'nationalize' gold on: August 21, 2013, 08:41:12 PM
I already have a critical response from a good friend of mine who says:
[i have permission to post his email here]

Quote

4) The only appeal of BitCoin (other than the anonymity for people who want to avoid taxes or buy illegal items) is that it currently has speculative potential in that its absolute value may increase. But guess what? It's increasing against a fiat currency. If fiat currency disappears, so does the appeal of BitCoin.
  
I could go on and on, but here's the bottom line: BitCoin cannot work in the current economy because, among other things, it does not support a credit market (so that people can borrow), and that's a vital part of our economy, and our way of  life. But beyond that, if fiat money fails, the government will make BitCoin it's own currency, and the game will go on.
 
Now how's THAT for a conspiracy theory!

What do you think of this

Your friend should learn more about bitcoin. There are many advantages to Bitcoin compared to fiat. Anonymity for avoiding taxes and buying illegal items aren't even among them, lol. Things like irreversible transactions that clear faster than fiat systems, the ability to send money internationally without outrageous fees, ability to be in total control of your own wealth, etc. And it's a common misconception that Bitcoin can't support a credit market. It already does, you can borrow BTC on Bitfinex, for example. Even if no one was willing to lend Bitcoin, it doesn't mean that it doesn't have a place in the economy. I'm sure you will always be able to borrow fiat since the cost to manufacture it is essentially zero.

greate replies!  THANKS!  [although the last paragraph speculates quite a bit about his abilities... and honestly, he is quite a "master" in his field of Systems Architect... by "systems" I mean, he designs large international accounting systems like that of large international universities, and franchises (LARGE ONES) He can't be that bad, if those companies hire him to be "the brain" behind the redesigns of their systems

Let's see what he says to these! Smiley
2  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2013-08-20 SovereignMan: This is the way they'll 'nationalize' gold on: August 21, 2013, 08:20:57 AM
I already have a critical response from a good friend of mine who says:
[i have permission to post his email here]

Quote
While parts of the article are true, there are a few points that are not correctly leverated or over-stated:
 
1) The ruling last week from the federal judge in the fraud cause was not that Bitcoin is a currency - end of statement. That was only related to the fraud case. That's like stating that a bag of frozen peas is a deadly weapon.... but leaving out the fact that someone used it to what another person in the head and killed them. As I wrote to you last week, that ruling sets neither case law or precedent, and is far from the last word on the subject. So that little fact alone (or rather, its reckless and misleading use) makes me view his writings a little more closely.
 
2) Guess what: we ARE the government. All of the spending of fiat money is for our benefit, like pensions that are unjustifiable and unaffordable. WE are the ones who want everything without paying for it. Want to see at least half of the root of the problem? Go look in the mirror, or look at your neighbors.
 
3) He is correct in saying that if you use BitCoin, there will be alternatives. It's called taxation. Oh My God, what a revelation!!!!!!! So I got paid in Euros last year, and I have to pay taxes to the US government. What's next? They're going to tell me that the world is round?
 
4) The only appeal of BitCoin (other than the anonymity for people who want to avoid taxes or buy illegal items) is that it currently has speculative potential in that its absolute value may increase. But guess what? It's increasing against a fiat currency. If fiat currency disappears, so does the appeal of BitCoin.
 
5) Any currency has the advantage of being a medium of exchance, so that you don't have to find someone who sells bread and wants to buy beer if you want bread and have only beer to sell. In his example, gold is truly being used as an alternative means of exchange (e.g. a currency), but it's being used by people who are side-stepping government taxation in countries where regulations (not just the rule of law, but also things  like land registries) are in very poor condition. That's not the case in the Western world. So the example  doesn't apply here.
 
I could go on and on, but here's the bottom line: BitCoin cannot work in the current economy because, among other things, it does not support a credit market (so that people can borrow), and that's a vital part of our economy, and our way of  life. But beyond that, if fiat money fails, the government will make BitCoin it's own currency, and the game will go on.
 
Now how's THAT for a conspiracy theory!

What do you think of this
3  Bitcoin / Press / 2013-08-20 SovereignMan: This is the way they'll 'nationalize' gold on: August 21, 2013, 08:17:35 AM
This newsletter from Simon Black is very interesting because he is getting more and more indepth about bitcoin to his newsletter subscribers.  (I believe he has a huge following)

http://www.sovereignman.com/trends/this-is-the-way-theyll-nationalize-gold-12618/

Quote
Nationalizing Gold
August 20, 2013
Rome, Italy

It was just last week in the Land of the Free that a Federal judge declared Bitcoin to be a currency.

And almost immediately after, the SEC announced ‘investigations’ into the digital currency.

(You remember the SEC, the guys who are tasked with protecting the public from dodgy investments… yet they routinely give their blessing to the likes of Madoff, Enron, toxic mortgage bonds, etc.)

This seems to have started a chain reaction.

Yesterday the German government took formal steps to recognize Bitcoin as form of ‘private money’, and subsequently rolled out steps to tax it.

TRUTH: These moves have nothing to do with consumer protection. Or raising tax revenue, for that matter.

What they’re really trying to do is send a clear message– if you use Bitcoin, there will be consequences.

This isn’t even really about Bitcoin. The big picture issue is that governments are scared to death of currency alternatives catching fire.

With so much debt and monetary stress in the global economy, it’s becoming increasingly clear by the day that the current fiat experiment is in serious trouble.

The only reason it still works is because (a) people continue to have confidence in the system, and (b) there really is no mainstream alternative to holding paper currency.

This last fact is paramount. If a viable currency alternative were introduced that became mainstream and popular, governments would no longer be able to perpetrate the fraudulent monetary system. The game would be up.

Consequently, they have a huge incentive to stomp out any currency alternative at the first sign of going mainstream.

Bitcoin is one such currency alternative that has started to creep into the mainstream press. As such, Western governments are now working diligently to eliminate its appeal as quickly as possible....

The article then goes on to talk about Gold more and less about Bitcoin...

Still very interesting!
4  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Ripple Giveaway! on: March 04, 2013, 01:29:50 PM
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5  Economy / Services / Bitcoin REWARD! ($1000 worth, that's about 71 btc at today's rate!) on: January 11, 2013, 12:45:46 AM
I just found this site!!! -- okay, not exactly Smiley   I was talking to Halden about life, the world, and everything that is awesome in it, and he mentioned that he is flipping the world of job hunting upside down, and letting employers find him (with the help of a "finder's fee")!

I convinced him to offer his reward in Bitcoin, and thus forced him to read, learn, and inquire about them.  The result:

If anyone helps him to be "discovered" by his next employer... you will get 71 BTC @ $14/btc (basically $1000 US in BTC)

http://sparkandmojo.com/

I know I am not a "senior" or "hero" member here, but I have been around, and I will vouch the legitimacy of this reward.

GOOD LUCK, and I hope someone here helps make the connection!

If you have any questions, you can contact Halden directly (see his site please), or ask here, and I will try and help.  


6  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin's are totally useless once you have a state of WAR! on: October 29, 2012, 05:50:37 PM
I am only trying to see how a patient, and open discussion can lead to informing someone who is VERY INTIMATELY connected to the current system and how he can be converted to see the light of Bitcoin as we all do!

Maybe it can't. Your friend doesn't need to change, he can go extinct.

As for the Bitcoin is useless during a state of war premise I'd say there was a time around 10-15 years ago when I'd maybe agree with that but today I just can see major economies allowing the destruction of something like 15-20% of their GDP by gangs of people known as governments through nationalizing all ISPs in the area they rule through violence and cutting off all the other areas so I don't think I'd accept the premise that Bitcoin automatically becomes useless in the state war. For example the land area knows as the US is at war right now in several countries and yet Bitcoin is perfectly useful to almost everyone.

I've been away a bit... sorry (I did ask for a 'patient' discussion Wink )

I don't think  that your view of having my friend "go extinct" is a good idea.  He is EXACTLY the kind of INFLUENTIAL person who can help to SEVERELY DISRUPT the current system NOW! If that was what we wanted to do... I DO! Smiley

That is why I went into this discussion.

Thanks for the rest of your comment, it is well appreciated! Smiley
7  Economy / Economics / Re: Doubt about Bitcoin's growth potential on: September 17, 2012, 06:02:26 AM
I truly hope Bitcoin's insurgence will be one time when Gresham is proven wrong! Smiley

Gresham's law only applies to exchange rates as dictated by law. Bitcoin is a whole new beast as it's rates are beyond what the law can decree, so Gresham's law doesn't apply in this case.

After we see what happens with Bitcoin, perhaps we can formulate Satoshi's Law.  Smiley


GO SATOSHI's LAW!!!
8  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin's are totally useless once you have a state of WAR! on: September 17, 2012, 05:51:08 AM
What do you think? Where is he right/wrong?

I think your friend is mentally retarded and you should get a new friend unless you just like working with 'challenged' kids.



I agree.  What exactly is his point!  Why is it useless?  Unless the internet/ networking ceases to exist!

I think his point is that it is "useless" in comparison with the current DOMINANT system which is exactly that: DOMINANT!

The current system is creating, financing, keeping a state of war the world over. 

btw. I am still waiting for more clarification on my friend's view, but it does seem to make some sense that bitcoin would have to (in theory anyway) be able to finance an army of "defenders" if push came to shove and the bitcoin system came face-to-face with the current financial, warmongering system.
9  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin's are totally useless once you have a state of WAR! on: September 17, 2012, 05:47:26 AM
What do you think? Where is he right/wrong?

I think your friend is mentally retarded and you should get a new friend unless you just like working with 'challenged' kids.



I do love a challenge! Smiley

No. Sorry, not so easy to dismiss, he is not mentally retarded, quite to opposite.
10  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin's are totally useless once you have a state of WAR! on: September 17, 2012, 05:45:42 AM
Bitcoin is perhaps the most effective way to hire cyber-warriors. Smiley

Conventional war... probably not. Massive government spending is required to fund war and bitcoin couldn't facilitate that.

I think it could facilitate it as some other's have mentioned that gold has been used for that in the past... the question is:

Would Bitcoin be a better (winning) facilitator when compared to Fiat or Gold for that matter (?)
11  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin's are totally useless once you have a state of WAR! on: September 17, 2012, 05:44:02 AM
@ChupacabraHunter: does your friend spend time in war zones?  I suspect no. Does he use Bitcoin? I suspect no. Sounds to me like he's a typical modern pundit, a loud-talking know-it-all. I wouldn't be surprised if this is exactly how he made his money - by talking with authority about things he knows shit about. So 21st century...


Right about the first few: No wars.  No bitcoins.  Very modern.
Wrong about: Pundit. Loud-talking. Know-it-all.

Actually, the whole point of my post is to have the community here help me have a nice intelligent conversation with someone who's intelligence I value, and who lives in the normal "economy" with his family etc.

He sees the current system for what it is, and he sees it from the inside as he is a very skilled mathematician and statistician.  He uses these skills to work and make money for a huge company, and he is taking the time to talk to me and to help me understand why he thinks Bitcoin is not a good idea. 

He is open to discussion.  He is listening at the moment.  I am trying to see if I can "convert" him, or if he can convince me that I am infact wrong.

Some people's posts here miss the point. I am only trying to see how a patient, and open discussion can lead to informing someone who is VERY INTIMATELY connected to the current system and how he can be converted to see the light of Bitcoin as we all do!

One idea at a time.

That's all. 

Thanks for you help, and input.
12  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Tapatalk App on: September 15, 2012, 04:05:14 PM
+1

+2

+3

+ Grin

13  Other / Meta / Re: Install Tapatalk To Give Easier Access to Mobile Users? on: September 15, 2012, 03:51:52 PM
Yes!!

please, somebody let me know how I can better browse/reply here using my tiny mini android Smiley
14  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin's are totally useless once you have a state of WAR! on: September 15, 2012, 04:02:49 AM
@ChupacabraHunter: 25 replies, and no word from you. That's not nice. I was hoping for a discussion, or at least an update.

Yes, you are right... I finally (after about 30  minutes of trying got my internet connection going!)  I am on the road... kinda "Simon Black"-like Smiley

Most times I check things on a small device, but responding from there is a pain.  I have GREAT discussions with people all over the world, and wish to get those ideas here to have them go "deeper" with you guys, the "hero" members et al. but I guess this is just not working since I don't have constant, reliable internet connection. I wish there was a cool Android App for messaging and discussing things on this forum... any suggestions?

anyhow, I am responding as best I can, it is just too sporadic, I am really on the move now, but soon I will settled somewhere!

Thanks for the great input and call for a nice discussion, that is also what I want.
15  Economy / Economics / Re: Doubt about Bitcoin's growth potential on: September 06, 2012, 06:57:20 PM
Throughout the course of history, humans have always moved to better forms of currency.

Beads -> Sea shells -> Wampum -> Metal Coins -> Gold -> Paper money fiat -> Electronic money (paypal, credit cards) -> Return to gold? Bitcoin?

This is me talking (C.H.)... and I have to point you to Gresham's Law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham's_law

"When a government compulsorily overvalues one type of money and undervalues another, the undervalued money will leave the country or disappear from circulation into hoards, while the overvalued money will flood into circulation."

so, if Bitcoin's are "good money" there maybe a totally opposite effect to the "expected" ... humans are just so puny and inferior to their "own" Government's! Sad 

I truly hope Bitcoin's insurgence will be one time when Gresham is proven wrong! Smiley
16  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Bitcoin's are totally useless once you have a state of WAR! on: September 06, 2012, 06:38:30 PM
...continued from my previous post from heated/fun debate about Bitcoin with a friend who is well and good in the current economic system...

The point my friend is making (and quite convincingly if I do say so myself) is that the current system cannot be taken/viewed from an extremist's point of view and simply written off as "evil".  Our current system is here, and it is working.  The main fault with it, in his view, is that it can be used to create wars to eliminate unwanted and unfriendly (non)participants of the current system.  Once that takes place, you have only participating players left, making the current system... well... "The current system!" Smiley

In order for Bitcoin to succeed, it has to topple, beat, replace, compete with the current system which is really good for WARS!  And, my friend suggests, Bitcoin will not succeed because:

Bitcoin's are totally useless once you have a state of WAR!

What do you think? Where is he right/wrong?
17  Economy / Economics / Re: Doubt about Bitcoin's growth potential on: September 06, 2012, 06:11:41 PM
Just like the gold standard, a paper money system was created with gold as backing, and as gold backing was made redundant at a point.  It's equally plausible to create a paper system with 25 million bitcoins and get rid of Bitcoin backing at some point.
As the "paper system" would not decrease transaction costs, it would not be accepted by market participants as a substitute for native Bitcoin. Acceptance is a prerequisite for both credit expansion, and a removal of backing ("fiatisation" of commodities). This is a critical difference between gold and Bitcoin.

An ePaper system can be created, which would decrease transaction costs as well.  

Even in the current day economy the instrument that most investment banks create don't have more than 2 parties entering the transaction as long as the two parties are comfortable taking on the credit risk.  However the two parties being large financial institutions, they allow the credit risk to cascade further into the economy.  Bitcoin is not immune to this effect.  
18  Economy / Economics / Re: Doubt about Bitcoin's growth potential on: September 06, 2012, 06:00:01 PM
For Bitcoins to be successful, it has to be able to replace the existing debt!

Whos debt? This reveals a thinking stuck in old system.

Should it replace, US debt? The Zimbabwe debt? whole worlds debt?
All money in the world, including chinese Yen or just the dollar?

Short answer is of course: No.

If the existing debt is not replaced, it must be written-off. This act will set a precedent to the creation of more debt.

Quote
There is really allready countries which has dual currency systems which works absolutely perfect.
In fact a dual currency system often works better.

Bernard Lietaer: Money diversity
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9EI2PrDpmw&feature=related

It does not have to replace anything to be useful.
A glass can exist and be useful without having to replace all the old glasses.

I can get BTC10 that was not created out of debt, by selling something for them, doing some work, mining them, trading them
for debt based money.

I can trade a sock for 0.1Btc if I want. Without caring how many dollars a Bitcoin is worth.

When I have those. No need to use debt based money anymore.
(Except to pay taxes.)

Its not hard.

And Bitcoin does not belong to a single country.
Its independent.

In case of dual currency systems both currencies are still taxed, and they are within the control of a single gov't.  Given that Bitcoin is a "perfect" way to evade taxes, it's growth is likely to be curbed by unwilling governments.  In his opinion it makes it very difficult to co-exist as a major currency.
19  Economy / Economics / Re: Doubt about Bitcoin's growth potential on: September 06, 2012, 05:42:21 PM
Bitcoin highlights a lack of faith in unbacked Fractional Reserve banking. Sure, Bitcoin could be used as backing for someone elses fiat credit system, but it's not Bitcoin's problem if they decide to pull a Mugabe and "Quantitatively Ease" to oblivion. That's their own stupid fault.

This is pretty much the case in point, it is what my friend is trying to say!
20  Economy / Economics / Re: Doubt about Bitcoin's growth potential on: September 06, 2012, 05:41:01 PM
Please help me understand/explain to an economist friend of mine...

He argues that Bitcoins have no chance in global success because a this system be used to create credit.

Bitcoins cannot be used to leverage. --> You cannot use Bitcoins to create credit.  ---> It can't replace existing credit already created by the current system.

For Bitcoins to be successful, it has to be able to replace the existing debt!


Please help me:

Where is he right/wrong?
He's wrong because I can owe you 100 bitcoins without having 100 bitcoins. Heck, I can owe you 25 million bitcoins even though 25 million bitcoins will never be in existence at the same time.

Unfortunately, no.  Just like the gold standard, a paper money system was created with gold as backing, and as gold backing was made redundant at a point.  It's equally plausible to create a paper system with 25 million bitcoins and get rid of Bitcoin backing at some point.  But the question here is whether Bitcoin can get to that stage. (?) 

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