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Question: Should MultiPool Mine Extremely low diff/hashrate Coins?
Yes
No

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Author Topic: Should MultiPool Mine Extremely low diff/hashrate Coins? LKY, ARG, PXC?  (Read 2963 times)
skyhigh2004
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July 17, 2013, 03:31:11 AM
 #21

the point of the matter is it was doing well enough as it was without multipool, had miners and a diff at an acceptable level. but the 10 mins that multipool visits ALL alts kills the diff

You do you all coins started at a low difficulty right?  Its supposed to go up.  LTC suffered from this a few months back but since it drew in miners it weathered the storm.  This is natural growth of this economy we have here.  Ways to make things the most profitable.  Its not anything new.  I for one love multipool, saves me the time of finding several prop pools and setting them all up.  

If anything things like coin choose and coinwarz are to blame for people difficulty jumping way more than the first pool that switches coins for you.  That is what is actually killing alts not multipool or anything else.  If you tell every miner where they can make the most money at any given time they will usually take that path.  Its not our fault a certain coin isn't always profitable.

CoinChoose and CoinWarz aren't to blame. People would just calculate it manually if they didn't exist.

Also, the OP is telling people to vote a certain way on the trollbox on mcxNOW.

Definitely agree.  They are not to blame they just make it easier.  Just like its easier to blame mp instead of the fact a certain coin can't get any miners on merrit just the fact that its profitable at the time.  Isn't that enough to show people the coin will fail on its own?

BTC:157BZV5z5dEdEoE5KSr5D7CQGXamLpsZ7n  LTC:LYCf5PnQpXCCmpR4ka3mR8DFDe5hKhTdfc
MEC:MAgTT8QdhVCkgHTkUoKvs4w1TQvv3NU99v  DGC:D8Ubh9oYTpSe1HEBptY8wf6ZrPpj7bhkV5
FTC:6hb1VsGzkej4kSsssGA4FMnkCoVp7PLi8D  PXC:PqQwQKJoYxGSVrKtVfDa5aaJVL9Yevhb2b
erk
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July 17, 2013, 03:34:35 AM
 #22

I am not sure that people voting understand the problem.

Here is a copy of a post I made in the ARG thread the other day that perhaps sheds a bit of light on it:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=231524.msg2738376#msg2738376

Quote
So it's been almost 38hours since multipool.in forced ARG into high diff. In that time just 230 blocks have been mined, where it should have been around 4,275 blocks. So that's over 4,000 blocks that everyone, including the users of multipool.in didn't get a share of. The greedy rush for a quick 250 blocks wastes 4,000 blocks. It's relatively simple arithmetic to work out how many minutes in an hour a pool with around 400MH/s could mine a coin ARG for maximum sustainable profitability, instead of rushing like a bull at a gate and ruining it for all.

The end result of course, is that multipool.in users are forced to mine high diff, energy expensive, coins with a high hash rate like LTC, FTC or even DGC  for hours on end, where the can't achieve the majority of the hash rate, instead of the far more profitable low diff alt coins.
Synthetic_Darkness
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July 17, 2013, 04:02:29 AM
 #23

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone here, as there is some HECTIC tension.

But Multipool has raised awareness of the coin, no matter what. This post is raising awareness, I personally believe all of this is in the coin's favour.
markm
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July 17, 2013, 04:14:49 AM
 #24

The exchange rate is part of the profitability formula, who is paying high rates to attract chain hoppers to mess up the coin, and how do they profit by doing that or why do they find it worth paying high prices to accomplish that?

Maybe the best approach for the small miners is to try to convince exchanges that coins vulnerable to chain hopping are also probably vulnerable to attacks and thus should be delisted until some future time when the small miners have racked up enough of the coins that getting back on the exchanges for a moment will allow them to buy enough mining gear to no longer be small miners but, rather, a dedicated 24/7 mining operation securing that particular chain... or something?

Certainly getting a coin that small miners can nicely mine onto exchanges seems to be the end of the small miner period for a coin, the small miners should maybe plan on not encouraging it to get onto an exchange until they have stockpiled a nice nest-egg, knowing that once it does get on an exchange the bigger miners will come get all the coins from then on.

Basically as a small miner plan on mining low difficulty things that are not on exchanges. Then like the miners who CPU mined BBQcoin for a year once the coin you are mining gets onto an exchange decide whether it is time to invest in mining gear to become a larger miner or just move on to other coins that are not on exchanges while waiting for your nest-egg (or collection of nest-eggs after some time of doing this) add up to enough to make it seem like time to move up to being a big miner (who will then get to either go chain hopping or be part of the massive 24/7 defense force of rigs securing some particular chain or merge of chains...)

How many GPU-less miners who mined BBQcoin last year still only have CPUs I wonder, and how many are spending or have spent their BBQ earnings on GPUs or even ASIC pre-orders (or even USB ASICs)?

-MarkM-

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Chronikka
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July 17, 2013, 04:22:03 AM
 #25

I don't think the multiport should mine coins with low network hash. Its risky and nobody wants to be stuck holding worthless coins when they could have been mining something else. We should be more selective about what is available on the multiport to ensure the coins we are mining have a higher chance of increasing in value.

"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination"  -Albert Einstein
Shtankeh
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July 17, 2013, 04:22:34 AM
 #26

Had Multipool not added ARG I wouldn't even know what the hell it is. So there you go. By it being on MP you have at least increased awareness by +1.


BTC: 1NcCSNF4yTAWGhYr8SdZBhntuKs8TRSBN8
forsetifox
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July 17, 2013, 04:44:48 AM
 #27

How about 3 difference choices.

1: current most profitable coin
2: lowest difficulty coin
3: lowest difficulty coin that has good growth within a certain time period
tlr
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July 17, 2013, 05:08:45 AM
 #28

How about letting individual users decide, either by letting them select individual coins, or by having a couple different endpoints for different classes of coins (kind of like "large cap" and "small cap" mutual funds)?
Torn
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July 17, 2013, 05:12:13 AM
 #29

I don't think the multiport should mine coins with low network hash. Its risky and nobody wants to be stuck holding worthless coins when they could have been mining something else. We should be more selective about what is available on the multiport to ensure the coins we are mining have a higher chance of increasing in value.

That's the point of Multiport. The coins "we" mine are going to increase in value by the mere fact we are mining them.

Besides.. Multipool is not a joint venture open to public pleasure. It is a private venture (as far as I know) owned and operated by Flound. He can do as he want's and if someone doesn't like it.. they do not have to use it. No vote is going to change the profitability mining continuing.


How about letting individual users decide, either by letting them select individual coins, or by having a couple different endpoints for different classes of coins (kind of like "large cap" and "small cap" mutual funds)?

The miners want to mine "The most profitable coin" possible. Regardless of so called classes or whatever you want. As long as someone is buying, we will sell.
We love you long time for 5xARG/LTC/PXC/MNC/DGX/NVC/TRC/FTC/LKY/WDC!
We work hard for our money.. so hard for you honey...


May many happy times be ahead.
T.

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tlr
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July 17, 2013, 05:42:54 AM
 #30


How about letting individual users decide, either by letting them select individual coins, or by having a couple different endpoints for different classes of coins (kind of like "large cap" and "small cap" mutual funds)?

The miners want to mine "The most profitable coin" possible. Regardless of so called classes or whatever you want. As long as someone is buying, we will sell.
We love you long time for 5xARG/LTC/PXC/MNC/DGX/NVC/TRC/FTC/LKY/WDC!
We work hard for our money.. so hard for you honey...


May many happy times be ahead.
T.

Some miners might not want to risk mining shitty pump-and-dump coins that will lose 90% of their value before they're able to cash out (not saying that's what LKY/ARG/PXC are, I know nothing about them, but you have to draw the line somewhere)
drummerjdb666
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July 17, 2013, 09:48:36 AM
 #31

i hold 0 ARG i hold more ltc and btc. but my opinion is based on the fact that its killing the coin, MultiPool is okay on coin's which its not going to kill. But ARG it is on the verge of killing which makes everyone except the people on Multipool loose out

So you want the Multipool miners to mine less profitable coins and reduce their earnings? Why would they willingly do this? If the supporters of ARG really cared about the coin and believed in it, they would put their money where their mouth is and pay Multipool the amount of BTC they would miss out on to not mine ARG. If they don't want to do this, they could always buy ARG on the exchanges to increase the price so that more miners will switch to ARG and the effect of Multipool would be decreased. However, not enough people actually believe in ARG so there aren't enough people willing to pay the costs of securing a blockchain. People have already decided to abandon ARG.

+1, it's a garbage coin, let it die.

Spoken like a bagholder of some other coin. How about we let your coins you support die? At least the ARG dev is actually in the process of developing some decent services some of which are unique and give the coin a real chance at helping it succeed. Thats better than alot of other coins which have virtually no services and exist only for pumping and dumping. Coins like that are not going to last and are just polluting the market.

I hope ARG is ok and support it going forward along with dgc. I'm even happy seeing other decent coins with solid development thrive too, it all helps the crypto community to become more widespread and a chance to be adopted by more mainstream folk.

Hopefully someone will come up with a way very soon to bring some of these coin raping pools like multipools.in into line. Sooner rather than later.

Actually, I'm not a bagholder of anything. The coins I support are strong enough to survive the flash miners, how about yours?

Lies!   Tongue Roll Eyes
ISAWHIM
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July 17, 2013, 02:19:39 PM
 #32

I think users should have a profile of "which coins they wish to mine", per user.

If the pool is moving to another coin, one that you don't want to participate in... it simply moves you to the coin you do want, from your list, which has the highest value. (Port forwarding by user.)

That helps two-fold. One, it helps stop us from collecting coins we don't want to be "stuck" with. Also, it helps reduce some of the "shock" that drives coins way below value, by difficulty-ramping, because those who didn't want that coin are not forced there. While those who are there, if there are less, get longer reward-times. (Because the diff remains lower longer, and gives the system time to exit before the coin-value is driven down below mining-value.)

Avoiding high profile coins helps also. (Coins that you just don't mine fast enough to get a reward from, in the short time you are there.) Thus, mining for an hour on a coin that does not reward a block for HOURS... when you could have been mining that hour on a block with slightly less value, and gotten 1-10 blocks. Thus, 0% gain on the slow-block which would have been 135% reward, "IF you found a block", as opposed to the more guaranteed gain of 130% on the slightly faster, but lower valued block.

Again. In the end, you are mining NOW for a value that will never be "realized" NOW. Because it takes time to get the coin, and by the time you earn the coin, the value is LOW... because you just drove the diff up to the point where less people mine it, and you mined based off "the value at the time of mining", not the "potential future value". (Eg, if the value is dropping, the future value will be LESS than the NOW value. If the value is rising, the future value MAY be more, by the time you actually earn the coin. But you assume value NOW = future-value, just to be on the moderately safe side.)

Translation, as miners, trade-value NOW is useless, unless you are a trader, trading holdings NOW. That has nothing to do with mining.

For mining, you care about the "Difficulty level NOW" compared to historic difficulty. (Is it easy to MINE.) Also the "potential future value", compared to historic value, based on the "time it takes you to EARN a coin that can be CASHED-IN for that value". (Is the future value dropping, thus, mining it now will result in less earnings, or is it rising, and thus, "Good to mine at this below-normal/average difficulty"?)

Coins with "low constant miners", are low, partly because the diffs are being driven-up, beyond them to mine it constantly. (This is a flaw of the coin-system, not the situation.)

In any event, mining any coin that is NOT the "top hopper coin", of the moment, is the best way to get the most valuable reward for your time and effort. Mining a coin with a high value that is going to drop... and an already high difficulty that is going to get higher once you start mining it, is NOT profitable. Even if the NOW price/value is high, on the charts. Not to mention these charts are all delayed and inaccurate.

Personally, I believe there are a lot of better ways to mine all of these coins, other than hopping, that does not impede the growth and reduce rewards. However, until they separate the "Traders value" from the "Miners value", you will all continue to be mislead and that just leaves more for those of us who actually know how to mine for value that actually exists. Not estimates of estimates of estimates of fantasy-times, based off earnings that have not been earned yet, on values that won't exist by the time you actually cash-out. The more you loose, the more we get cheap from you.

Additionally, I would rather see more of the "valued coins" listed, for hopping, and the coins of lower hash-rates listed for constant mining. (Manual hopping, as opposed to automated. Thus, less drastic of an impact.)

If a coin has a constant hash-rate equal to the "hopping-pool hash-rate", that is a good coin to hop with. If it is like MNC, which now only has a constant hash-rate of around 12K, thanks to hoppers that made it a waste of time to mine constantly... (It was over 100K a month ago, and 200K before that.) The result of throwing 400K at the 12K miners, will eventually drive that down to 0K. Though, I suspect the 12K is the few nodes that still exist, and those mining to get "statistic data" to feed the charts. The illusion of value to hop on-to, is created by the existence of hoppers on that coin. The "value" is not there, when you all split the 20 coins you actually mine in those few seconds you mine it, by 400+ miners. Yay, you earned a penny at the rate of 1.2 pennies, or 2.1 pennies... The point is, you could have made a dollar at the $1.20 rate, and made 100x more.

Don't forget, cashing them in lowers the value... Thus degrading your future-reward. Holding them, nullifies any perceived NOW value... Thus mining off NOW value is completely irrelevant.

This is not like money in a bank. When you hold money in a bank, the bank spends your money, loaning it out to others who are spending it, to boost the economy. Holding coins, and selling short, is like stuffing cash under your mattress... It only delays the losses to a future date, unless you mine off future value, and mine for quantity, by mining those coins with lower-than-average difficulties.

P.S. I still think, and always will think... that Multipool is the best pool, and potential for value. If you have the time to mine and hop manually. Avoiding the pools that the multi-port is mining, and has helped to drive value down on. (Helped... as this is NOT the ONLY hopping tool, but it is one of the largest hash-rates hopping on a limited range of over-mined coins. Call it a love-hate relationship. Tongue Mostly love, for all the wrong reasons!)
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July 17, 2013, 03:35:29 PM
 #33

SEE ABOVE!
Worth the read..

P.S. I still think, and always will think... that Multipool is the best pool, and potential for value. If you have the time to mine and hop manually. Avoiding the pools that the multi-port is mining, and has helped to drive value down on. (Helped... as this is NOT the ONLY hopping tool, but it is one of the largest hash-rates hopping on a limited range of over-mined coins. Call it a love-hate relationship. Tongue Mostly love, for all the wrong reasons!)

Reported to Moderator!


..for an extremely well written post.

Thanks.
T.

Will not trade sex for coins regardless of rumors! You may still attempt if you want.
Chronikka
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July 17, 2013, 03:39:33 PM
 #34

I think users should have a profile of "which coins they wish to mine", per user.

If the pool is moving to another coin, one that you don't want to participate in... it simply moves you to the coin you do want, from your list, which has the highest value. (Port forwarding by user.)

Thats a good solution but who knows how difficult to implement. It would be nice though because I'm tired of coming back to find a pile of LKY or ARG that I don't know what to do with.

"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination"  -Albert Einstein
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