Is withholding Mining Machines fraud and does that provide for a damages claim?

[whyinvestinbitcoin]

I just received my 2 x Neptunes and I also recently received by cloud account with cointerra after converting my order from 4 x 2TH machines that clearly weren't being delivered on time.

What I find stinky suspicious and almost blatantly obvious as fraud is how having paid for these machines in December to early January, that the timing of delivery just HAPPENS to be when it becomes practically unfeasible to make any return on your investment.

My claim is that these two providers took all the money to develop mining machines for clients but instead built a server farm of their own to mine all the coins until they were at a profit level that makes it unaffordable. At this point, they begin pushing the mining machines back out to order.

Now if this is the case, surely there is a possibility to make a claim of fraud and damages.

It's almost like a large scale investment in a real gold mine, and the company that builds the mine steals all the gold before delivering the mine to the investor. Anyone else think that this is akin to fraud?

All we need now is the proof and testimony to the fact that this did in fact happen. What's clear is that KNC did have a huge data centre with mining machines well before delivery of the Neptunes even took place. Looking at the machines in the photo, they look like they are Neptunes without the cube frame boxes wrapped around them.

My KNC controller boards where also completely miss configured. Almost as if they had been used and then reset but the reset didn't completely reset the boards.

I believe that the claim would be for the amount of lost revenue from mining given the with-holding period of the machines. Given that we can accurately calculate what would have been mined when, and perhaps even look at pool data to see where the machines were mining from, we could theoretically calculate how much was mined from the machines.

Surely we could be talking hundreds of thousands of lost BTC to KNC and Cointerra while they withheld our machines?

Cheers

[murraypaul]

Now if this is the case, surely there is a possibility to make a claim of fraud and damages.

Did you pre-order two Neptunes?
Were there any conditions on what they could do with your money in the meantime?
Did they deliver two Neptunes?
Do the Neptunes perform broadly as promised, in terms of hashing power and electrical usage?
If so, where is the fraud?

What I find stinky suspicious and almost blatantly obvious as fraud is how having paid for these machines in December to early January, that the timing of delivery just HAPPENS to be when it becomes practically unfeasible to make any return on your investment.

I think you'll find it has been unfeasible to make a positive ROI on your investment for a while now.

My claim is that these two providers took all the money to develop mining machines for clients but instead built a server farm of their own to mine all the coins until they were at a profit level that makes it unaffordable. At this point, they begin pushing the mining machines back out to order.

KNC server farm was built with their older Jupiter machines, not Neptunes.

[whyinvestinbitcoin]

I suppose they have carefully positioned themselves to avoid any back lash. The only reason there is no ROI with mining is because the manufactures mine the coins first. If these Neptunes were delivered even 3 months ago we would have all seen a ROI. Now we are looking at reaching not even 80% of the BTC that could have been bought at the high price of $950.

Lesson learned you could say, but I'm just saying it stinks to high heaven that although they delivered what was promised, that I pre-ordered and that their contract had no stipulations on what they could do with the cash, I still believe that regardless of contracts that it could be considered fraud if they used the machines we own to do any of the mining.

It's likely that they used the money to build as many jupiters as possible to mine as much as possible, delaying the production of the Neptunes as the priority is to mine as fast as possible.

All very clever, but just means the consumers who supported them and got them where they are have lost out big time in that the amount of BTC they could have bought (even at higher prices) will not be matched by the amount of BTC that can be mined.

For a ROI value of 0% for a Neptune delivered today I believe should be approx. $3,500. Delivered next month approx. $2,000. They should be selling them for $2,000 today for delivery today if there is even a hope in making a decent return. So much for the $13,000 that I paid for them. That's $15-19,000 that I will never see again. I was expecting to see them at the beginning of Q2 since they were presenting it as such with 'delivery Q1/Q2' and other such statements. Even if it was delivered in mid May I would have made my money back.

I'm just glad I didn't buy any more than 2. At least coin terra started mining for me early June even though I ordered from them in January.

[philipma1957]

   you have on real recourse. 
you could hope for an older ex soldier that invested with them to find out he is dying of an incurable disease.

He has decided to prove a point and goes on a 3 company no make it a 4 company killing spree.

KNC
BFL
BLACK ARROW 
COIN TERRA


but that type of story happens in the movies not in real life.

[Bicknellski]

Here is a company that does that at regular intervals.

Technobit  Up to 10 week delays in shipment of some customers Minion Group Buy Units.

The hurt / delays continue for some customers of Technobit who have paid substantial amounts for miners over 10 weeks ago.

I agree with scrappy here, Batch 1 should of been sent out by now. reading the thread its totally unprofessional sending out small orders first.
i see some people waiting 10 weeks now for there order to be shipped out and nothing. Seems people with large orders are getting shafted.

I think compensation is due MARTO!!!!

People have been patient with you since you had a problem with the boards, but this now seems to be resolved.
So what exactly is going on??

i do not what to take legal action as BFL are facing and now KNC miner, marto.
You really havent provided any updates to people with large orders on the forum at all.

Please provide a clear update on what is going on and when everyone's orders are going to be fulfilled and compensation package.
with have been patient, but you have taken are patience for granted now.

There is seriously something wrong with this thread. Folks Martin has yet to deliver batch one yet we have 3 confirmed cases of him shipping batch 2. He says "small orders" Fuck that shit. Mine may have been large and paid in fiat. I have as of to date received 6 of 50, and Marto has promised 6 shipping dates and only sent once!

 Guys, enough of the bullshit.

 I paid in fiat for a flat conversion, have been lied to about shipping, and seen batch 2 orders go out before mine. Check the thread, I was in page 2 and traded in 2 x3's and paid in fiat. I know I am not alone here as I have spoke to many of you in pm's. Enough with the BS, bring it.

scrappy do, dam so shipments are just trickling out. i would of thought at least batch 1 would of been completed by now

I haven't received a single one of my 88 boards. My chips have been at technobit since July 17th.

Marto any news when batch 2 will be shipped, its been over a month now since you received my chips. ive emailed you on your site, 2 weeks ago and no reply.
would like to know whats happening with those.

you going to be offering any compensation for late deliveries now. awaiting 25 boards   and counting

 No offense Guyver, but he hasn't even shipped batch one out. Hopefully he will not ship out anymore batch 2 like the mistake made last week. I just got my first partial shipment today 6 of 50. I know its been over a month for you and I hate it, but it has been over 10 weeks for some of us.

[k9quaint]

I just received my 2 x Neptunes and I also recently received by cloud account with cointerra after converting my order from 4 x 2TH machines that clearly weren't being delivered on time.

What I find stinky suspicious and almost blatantly obvious as fraud is how having paid for these machines in December to early January, that the timing of delivery just HAPPENS to be when it becomes practically unfeasible to make any return on your investment.

My claim is that these two providers took all the money to develop mining machines for clients but instead built a server farm of their own to mine all the coins until they were at a profit level that makes it unaffordable. At this point, they begin pushing the mining machines back out to order.

Now if this is the case, surely there is a possibility to make a claim of fraud and damages.

It's almost like a large scale investment in a real gold mine, and the company that builds the mine steals all the gold before delivering the mine to the investor. Anyone else think that this is akin to fraud?

All we need now is the proof and testimony to the fact that this did in fact happen. What's clear is that KNC did have a huge data centre with mining machines well before delivery of the Neptunes even took place. Looking at the machines in the photo, they look like they are Neptunes without the cube frame boxes wrapped around them.

My KNC controller boards where also completely miss configured. Almost as if they had been used and then reset but the reset didn't completely reset the boards.

I believe that the claim would be for the amount of lost revenue from mining given the with-holding period of the machines. Given that we can accurately calculate what would have been mined when, and perhaps even look at pool data to see where the machines were mining from, we could theoretically calculate how much was mined from the machines.

Surely we could be talking hundreds of thousands of lost BTC to KNC and Cointerra while they withheld our machines?

Cheers

If they promised you delivery with a certain time period (45 days is the max I think for online purchases) and then failed to deliver, you were entitled to a full refund. If they knew they would not deliver to you within the promised time frame and did not inform you of the delay (if they were going to mine with it first for instance) then they were in violation of FTC regulations.