ripper234
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Ron Gross
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August 06, 2013, 05:01:47 AM |
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How about you post bounties ... and you can try to implement them yourself?
This way you're giving everybody the same chance of a 'salary' that you're giving yourself. If you'll work quickly and implement bounties, you'll be worthy of the payout. If not, let the best/most efficient/cheapest coder win (while adhering to strict quality & security standards).
My vote goes to bounties.
There would be an issue with conflict of interest when setting bounty payouts. For instance, Willett can set a bounty for a feature, and in the case he expects no one would pick up such a bounty an artificially high bounty would be set. Who says it's "artificial". If nobody will/can do it, then whatever price Willet pays is justified (assuming the task is important, enough time is given for people to bid on the bounty, etc).
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CIYAM
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August 06, 2013, 05:07:06 AM |
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vokain
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August 06, 2013, 05:11:44 AM Last edit: August 06, 2013, 05:18:08 PM by vokain |
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How about you post bounties ... and you can try to implement them yourself?
This way you're giving everybody the same chance of a 'salary' that you're giving yourself. If you'll work quickly and implement bounties, you'll be worthy of the payout. If not, let the best/most efficient/cheapest coder win (while adhering to strict quality & security standards).
My vote goes to bounties.
There would be an issue with conflict of interest when setting bounty payouts. For instance, Willett can set a bounty for a feature, and in the case he expects no one would pick up such a bounty an artificially high bounty would be set. Who says it's "artificial". If nobody will/can do it, then whatever price Willet pays is justified (assuming the task is important, enough time is given for people to bid on the bounty, etc). I just feel like a lot of the problems in creating the source has already been cursorily resolved by Willett already, meaning it'd be very easy for him to post a high bounty and claim it with ease just because he already thought about how to tackle that component before anyone else did. Besides, I'm no software engineer, but doesn't it take a lot of effort to sufficiently describe the "scaffolding" for a program to get someone else to understand exactly what is wanted? As of right now I'm favoring the "trust Willett to be frugal and thrifty with what he spends the fund for" option and hope that he exercises the best course of action for each step that needs to be solved to get this thing off the ground. Some things he'll be better off doing on his own and others, it would make perfect temporal and financial sense to delegate out. Time should be taken to identify which of the project milestones are which. Also, as I understand it, it is likely we need as much of the initial funds as we can save to secure the escrow and initial value within Mastercoin, if it helps. Honestly i'm still a bit iffy on the beginning as to how Mastercoin will start trading (I'd appreciate some help understanding on this point!) . Also, spending on promotional media at this point is frivolous in my humble opinion. It is a pretty good business rule that you don't spend your initial capital on marketing when you don't even have an inkling of a return on investment yet, it is better to rely on word of mouth for now versus using up 1exodus. Now, once we get the source working with no problems, we can risk spending 1exodus on something like marketing, if we think the return on said marketing will be greater than its cost. I think having a video that shows what is possible with Mastercoin, with direct application of the protocol, say, with an easy to understand concept such as dist. betting would be the first great start, and a great way to segue into the other features. Without a direct application available for people to get their hands on, a video would be kind of ineffective in terms of spreading adoption. Perhaps before this happens, an easy-to-use service that utilizes the distributed betting feature should be created. I could see this being contracted out. Ideally, I'd like to see a proportionate return of 1exodus funds to the sending addresses OR preferably, a sort of endowment fund that will see through to accelerating Mastercoin's long term success. This leads me to think, hear me out on this Willett since I know it's kind of your project and all: there should be some sort of oversight board with a platform (the more open the better IMO) to discuss the various spending that will need to be conducted throughout this dev and distribution cycle, and veto powers (perhaps limited somehow?) in the case that those vested think a proposal is frivolous and a better route should be sought.. Just something that can facilitate discussion about transparent fund usage before it happens, you know? In my experience, sometimes the creative doers of a group, despite how great their idea is and their acuity in their respective trades, forget the full business side of the equation and run through too many costs before drying up all their capital, or simply just using capital less than optimally/prematurely. That is my biggest fear. Thoughts?
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ripper234
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August 06, 2013, 06:22:16 AM |
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Also, spending on promotional media at this point is frivolous in my humble opinion. It is a pretty good business rule that you don't spend your initial capital on marketing when you don't even have an inkling of a return on investment yet, it is better to rely on word of mouth for now versus using up 1exodus. Now, once we get the source working with no problems, we can risk spending 1exodus on something like marketing, if we think the return on said marketing will be greater than its cost. I think having a video that shows what is possible with Mastercoin, with direct application of the protocol say with an easy to understand concept such dist. betting would be the first great start, and a great way to segue into the other features. Without a direct application available for people to get their hands on, a video would be kind of ineffective in terms of spreading adoption. Perhaps before this happens, an easy-to-use service that utilizes the distributed betting feature should be created. I could see this being contracted out. Ideally, I'd like to see a proportionate return of 1exodus funds to the sending addresses OR preferably, a sort of endowment fund that will see through to accelerating Mastercoin's long term success.
1. It is often better to do some limited marketing at the beginning, instead of just sitting in your basement and building products. Are you familiar with the Lean Startup movement? Willet has managed to get some traction before building a product, the better the PR campaign is during August, the more funds the project will raise. If a video can be built within a few day for 50 BTC, I think it should be done. 2. Alternatively, if the video makers believe in the project, the can receive MSC instead of BTC (supposed, they can be paid 20% extra above market rate, but in MSC ... this will require evaluating that "the market rate of MSC is right now). Remember that 1Exodus also controls MSC, not just BTC (it gets a 10% bonus). This leads me to think, hear me out on this Willett since I know it's kind of your project and all: there should be some sort of oversight board with a platform (the more open the better IMO) to discuss the various spending that will need to be conducted throughout this dev and distribution cycle, and veto powers (perhaps limited somehow?) in the case that those vested think a proposal is frivolous and a better route should be sought.. Just something that can facilitate discussion about transparent fund usage before it happens, you know? In my experience, sometimes the creative doers of a group, despite how great their idea is and their acuity in their respective trades, forget the full business side of the equation and run through too many costs before drying up all their capital, or simply just using capital less than optimally/prematurely. That is my biggest fear. Thoughts?
+1
Willet, several people have suggested a board of directors. Can you explain why a board / MasterCoin foundation that controls the funds is not a good idea? The sooner such a board is started (preferably within the fund-raiser period), the better.
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ripper234
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August 06, 2013, 06:45:07 AM |
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Not you again... please go away.
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ripper234
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August 06, 2013, 06:45:58 AM |
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If this really is your identity, I think you're screwed. You still haven't proved you are who you say you are though. Maybe take a picture of yourself holding a sign saying "Mastercoin is totally not a scam guys"?
Although this is actually not a bad idea.
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spiral_mind
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August 06, 2013, 06:51:32 AM |
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Not you again... please go away.
Got any answer for those two points? Or are you just going to self moderate my posts away instead of defend your project using words again? Although this is actually not a bad idea. It would certainly help establish your identity even if it wouldn't directly establish this project's legitimacy (since the whole thing basically boils down to "give me money now and you can have some coins that don't exist yet when I get around to making them").
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ripper234
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August 06, 2013, 07:08:31 AM |
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Got any answer for those two points? Or are you just going to self moderate my posts away instead of defend your project using words again?
I'm not feeding the troll. If anybody else who (not a troll/troll sockpuppet) wants to know, please post and I can post my opinion.
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dacoinminster (OP)
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August 06, 2013, 12:07:58 PM |
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There would be an issue with conflict of interest when setting bounty payouts. For instance, Willett can set a bounty for a feature, and in the case he expects no one would pick up such a bounty an artificially high bounty would be set.
Yeah, I'm not sure how bounties could be administrated if I was paying some of them to myself. Seems like I would have to deal with a lot of accusations any time I paid one to myself.
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dacoinminster (OP)
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August 06, 2013, 12:15:00 PM |
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I believe all applicable laws deal with transfers into and out of U.S. Dollars, which I am not doing. Also, my LinkedIn profile links to the MasterCoin spec, and I spoke about it on video at the bitcoin conference, so I really doubt anybody is seriously questioning my identity.
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bytemaster
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August 06, 2013, 03:17:23 PM |
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I believe all applicable laws deal with transfers into and out of U.S. Dollars, which I am not doing. Also, my LinkedIn profile links to the MasterCoin spec, and I spoke about it on video at the bitcoin conference, so I really doubt anybody is seriously questioning my identity. You mean your forum picture isn't what you look like? I suggest your first bounty be to throughly vet the economics of your system prior to any code being developed.
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spiral_mind
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August 06, 2013, 05:38:45 PM |
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I believe all applicable laws deal with transfers into and out of U.S. Dollars, which I am not doing. Also, my LinkedIn profile links to the MasterCoin spec, and I spoke about it on video at the bitcoin conference, so I really doubt anybody is seriously questioning my identity. Read the links I posted. The first one the guy collected Bitcoins (not USD) yet that didn't stop the SEC from charging him with offering unlicensed investment instruments. The second link someone created a virtual currency (Liberty Reserve) and sold it directly to people. The only reason Bitcoin hasn't been shut down is because it's open source, decentralized, with no official creator. That makes it impossible to shut down. Since your project has none of these properties you're a ripe target for the feds. You cannot deny that you're proposing to sell a currency directly to consumers (it's irrelevant whether it's in BTC or USD for legal purposes). Even if you succeed what you're doing is fundamentally illegal in the US. The creator of Liberty Reserve was in Spain but that didn't stop the US govt from getting him and shutting his currency down.
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vokain
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August 06, 2013, 06:57:26 PM |
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Is it illegal to trade BTC for LTC?
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spiral_mind
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August 06, 2013, 07:00:53 PM |
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Is it illegal to trade BTC for LTC?
If you operate an exchange within the US without complying with know your customer regulations then YES. You will be shut down for money laundering. The currency pairing is irrelevant. If you are exchanging currency you have to have a money services business license in every state you operate in.
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vokain
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August 06, 2013, 07:30:44 PM |
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Is it illegal to trade BTC for LTC?
If you operate an exchange within the US without complying with know your customer regulations then YES. You will be shut down for money laundering. The currency pairing is irrelevant. If you are exchanging currency you have to have a money services business license in every state you operate in. but the whole point of this protocol is that this sort of stuff is decentralized? Sort of like with Defense Distributed, yeah, we had the lead designer who was forced to stop, but the important thing was that he released his work into the public domain which spread before any authority could enforce the idea. I guess my point is, if I can trade BTC for LTC very easily now, what's to stop MSC from slipping by at the individual level as well. Enforceability is hard, and really unnecessary. Now if a commercial service were to use this protocol, it'd be a different matter. They would have to follow laws or risk having their operation shut down. This, as a protocol, seems different.
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spiral_mind
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August 06, 2013, 08:16:10 PM |
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Is it illegal to trade BTC for LTC?
If you operate an exchange within the US without complying with know your customer regulations then YES. You will be shut down for money laundering. The currency pairing is irrelevant. If you are exchanging currency you have to have a money services business license in every state you operate in. but the whole point of this protocol is that this sort of stuff is decentralized? Sort of like with Defense Distributed, yeah, we had the lead designer who was forced to stop, but the important thing was that he released his work into the public domain which spread before any authority could enforce the idea. I guess my point is, if I can trade BTC for LTC very easily now, what's to stop MSC from slipping by at the individual level as well. Enforceability is hard, and really unnecessary. Now if a commercial service were to use this protocol, it'd be a different matter. They would have to follow laws or risk having their operation shut down. This, as a protocol, seems different. This protocol is not decentralized. He's the only one who can create "mastercoins" according to his proposal. He hasn't released any source code. He's saying "Trust me to make this alt-coin eventually, here's my real life identity, I live in the USA!". That's the opposite of decentralization. Whether his centralized project plans to piggyback off the Blockchain is irrelevant. Your example of Defense Distributed is not a good analogy. The creator of that project released his work for free to the public rather than trying to sell it. It's not illegal to create homemade firearms or firearm blueprints in the USA either. Exchanging money without following regulations definitely is and many people have been busted for it already.
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vokain
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August 06, 2013, 10:00:26 PM Last edit: August 07, 2013, 10:00:22 AM by vokain |
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Is it illegal to trade BTC for LTC?
If you operate an exchange within the US without complying with know your customer regulations then YES. You will be shut down for money laundering. The currency pairing is irrelevant. If you are exchanging currency you have to have a money services business license in every state you operate in. but the whole point of this protocol is that this sort of stuff is decentralized? Sort of like with Defense Distributed, yeah, we had the lead designer who was forced to stop, but the important thing was that he released his work into the public domain which spread before any authority could enforce the idea. I guess my point is, if I can trade BTC for LTC very easily now, what's to stop MSC from slipping by at the individual level as well. Enforceability is hard, and really unnecessary. Now if a commercial service were to use this protocol, it'd be a different matter. They would have to follow laws or risk having their operation shut down. This, as a protocol, seems different. This protocol is not decentralized. He's the only one who can create "mastercoins" according to his proposal. He hasn't released any source code. He's saying "Trust me to make this alt-coin eventually, here's my real life identity, I live in the USA!". That's the opposite of decentralization. Whether his centralized project plans to piggyback off the Blockchain is irrelevant. Your example of Defense Distributed is not a good analogy. The creator of that project released his work for free to the public rather than trying to sell it. It's not illegal to create homemade firearms or firearm blueprints in the USA either. Exchanging money without following regulations definitely is and many people have been busted for it already. The source code is going to be developed openly and transparently. Anyone is free to buy mastercoins right now. Don't quote me for anything, but my thinking from FinCEN's statement was that it was only illegal not to comply with current AML laws. I don't think they have jurisdiction with the nature of bitcoin-to-bitcoin transactions, and I think they said that. Mastercoin would probably fall under the same extension of the decision. Like Bitcoin, you can use it to launder money, but it is illegal to do so. Same idea. The commercial operations using the Mastercoin protocol when exchanging with their customers would have to follow said regulations, no? The CFTC has yet to make any statement as well, but they're exploring whether or not Bitcoin even falls under their jurisdiction as a virtual commodity. Please note I'm not speaking for Willett or Mastercoin here or anything, as of right now I'm simply discussing points for argument's sake. He can clarify his position if he wants.
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ripper234
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August 07, 2013, 06:19:56 AM |
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This protocol is not decentralized. He's the only one who can create "mastercoins" according to his proposal. He hasn't released any source code. He's saying "Trust me to make this alt-coin eventually, here's my real life identity, I live in the USA!". That's the opposite of decentralization. Whether his centralized project plans to piggyback off the Blockchain is irrelevant.
Dead wrong. Once he published 1.0, the protocol is totally decentralized except control of exodus funds (which we're working on decentralizing now). Anyone can come and implement this protocol. I do agree it's a high risk that only Willet controls the funds, but hopefully that would be resolved soon.
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