Seeds of distrust

[cypherdoc]

At the heart of all of this is a split movement in Bitcoin, both supporting it equally-- hackers and crackers. Hackers want transparency and information to be shared. They want government for it's power to change and control, but they want to be a part of the change and take away control from the evil forces. Crackers just want personal gain and are mostly against government, crave anonymity, etc.

In the Bitcoin community it is easy to see the split between those who outright refuse to give even their name (why?) and those who don't care if their name is plastered on a billboard along with their private bank transactions for 10 years. The difference is a philosophical one as best as I can tell. Some people believe the world is full of good natured people who let too many bad natured people take control of it, and that things need to be balanced. Others feel that any control is bad and chaos is beautiful, because we only live once anyway.

People who support bitcoin, support it because it enables something. What it enables for them is different from person to person, but if what it enables for you is to be able to steal from others more easily, then you will have a large majority of hackers constantly going up against you. If what it enables you is to track thieves easier, then you will have crackers constantly up against you, spreading lies and creating sock puppets.

Frankly speaking, I see no future where anonymity reigns. Then again, no one matters in the end and names and faces are just representations of initiative and intentions. Bitcoin is a tool. We use it to transfer value. GLBSE, Pirate, you name it, these are all intentions of individuals. As a diverse community of Bitcoin, we should always allow questioning of intentions from individuals, and encourage transparency. There is not a single thing I wouldn't share about my own personal life if it served a purpose of betterment. The problem is that the forces of crackers, dishonest businessmen, and chaos lovers is inherently loud in these forums given their greatest weapon is sockpuppetry and simulating public opinion in their favor.

Ask Pirate what he's doing, if he tells you he refuses to explain anything, don't put money into him, warn others in an honest manner what he said to you, nothing more. When news sources ask you your opinion on certain things, tell them the facts. We will only ever be looked at as a "bad" currency so long as the people in the community keep showing emotion where logic should be shown instead. This forum is a comedic venture and it's full of daily drama from Dank trying to convince people that he's trustworthy for a loan while refusing to explain anything, to loganschrye trying to convince people that buying popcorn should be on the first of the to-do list for starting a movie theatre with other people's money. This place is a proving ground for economics, philosophy and basically serves as an experimentation ground for ideas, horribly ill-thought out ones especially. Pirate is part of the experiment. So was Bitcoinica. So was Bitmunchies. So is SilkRoad. Everything is just an experiment and everything here is new. We're all part of this experiment. It's currently high risk just to be involved in something this new as protocols, adoption and value can change at any moment. That said, the forums are not Bitcoin. Everyone knows this. Real bitcoin business and movements happen outside the forums. The very reason it is the busiest network of bitcoiners is directly due to its nurturing moderation in favor of anonymity, deniability, etc.

I'm not convinced that's a good policy, but the best I can say is-- if you don't like it, start another one.

P.S. Sorry for the rant.

uhmmm.  excuse me.  so now, just who invented Bitcoin?

[Matthew N. Wright]

uhmmm.  excuse me.  so now, just who invented Bitcoin?

and who invented myBitcoin?

Yep. I don't necessarily agree that your name must be attached to some work for it to be taken seriously. We're talking about purposely hiding and masking your identity while operating in a financial marketplace. Big difference.

Not taking credit for something happens all the time. Unfortunately, so does not taking credit for thefts.

[Shadow383]

This is fun, we're watching people go through the five stages of grief 
Some of them are through Denial, now on to Anger "GAAH VLADIMIR MICON ETC", next it's bargaining, then depression and acceptance.

It's going to be a fun week 

[Bitcoin Oz]

What are the odds that bitcoin will allow some of the worst excesses of capitalism to occur with people knowing there is absolutely no way victims can get justice ?

[mobile4ever]

Wanting to retain the ability for private financial exchange seems reasonable to me. The history of private exchanges of wealth is about as old as money itself. Of course there has been a consistent escalation of marketing against anonymous cash transactions for at least 10 years now. The US government isn't trying to hide their demands for more and finer detailed tracing of financial transactions. Remains to be seen how it will play out over time, so far they can't even kill off the US penny.

Now taking investors money in an anonymous fashion and decrying any objections, that has less

They key to freedom is being able to say "no". Having a choice in your own future is therefore important. If people want to be anonymous like they are with fiat money, they will need to have the choice to be so. If they do not want it, again, it should be their choice.

[n8rwJeTt8TrrLKPa55eU]

"I have an amazing investment opportunitiy that will make you a lot of money very quickly but I can't explain the details; just give me your cash and don't ask questions" should always be regarded as a scam until proven otherwise because scammers have been using minor variations of that line for centuries.

Indeed.  Humans learn nothing from history, it's just amazing for how the same things happen over and over, in spite of accumulated knowledge.

The most infamous scam IPO of 1720, at the height of the South Sea Bubble, advertised itself as "a company for carrying out an undertaking of great advantage, but nobody to know what it is".   Eerily familiar to much of the lending activity in the Bitcoin economy.

I guess the profitability of casinos and lotteries proves that there must be something in the human psyche where we don't calculate the odds of total loss vs. large reward properly.  Put a big enough prize in front of people, and greed just overwhelms any rational assessment of a negative outcome.

It makes for great entertainment, however.  I'm totally addicted to the weekly scandals and price volatility.  Much more exciting than anything in my real life.

[2112]

something in the human psyche where we don't calculate the odds

Why are you concentating on humans only? I'm sure you've heard of the cats that were killed due to their curiosity. It is a fact of life. Most cats on this board are young and can be more cautious in their remaining six lives.

[Rassah]

something in the human psyche where we don't calculate the odds

Why are you concentating on humans only? I'm sure you've heard of the cats that were killed due to their curiosity. It is a fact of life. Most cats on this board are young and can be more cautious in their remaining six lives.

Um, ahem:
http://www.poetryarchive.org/poetryarchive/singlePoem.do?poemId=11921

[mobile4ever]

How many people who have contributed something "world-changing" in history did it anonymously?

I hear the inventor of this crypto-currency thing did.

And probably more will follow. Times are a-changing.

How so? His name is Satoshi.

[mobile4ever]

What are the odds that bitcoin will allow some of the worst excesses of capitalism to occur with people knowing there is absolutely no way victims can get justice ?

In the game of Monopoly, they use a set amount of money. The "banker" is not allowed to print up more. Fiat money used in every day life is less honest than the game of Monopoly. Bitcoin goes up to 21 million and there will be no more.

[Fluttershy]

The standard bitcoin scammer MO is to take the money and run, while promising a 50% refund to buy themselves time. Maybe they give a couple people their money back, maybe they just use sockpuppet accounts to say they did.

How many people who have contributed something "world-changing" in history did it anonymously?

I hear the inventor of this crypto-currency thing did.

And probably more will follow. Times are a-changing.

How so? His name is Satoshi.

Allegedly.

[2112]

Um, ahem:
http://www.poetryarchive.org/poetryarchive/singlePoem.do?poemId=11921

Beautiful poem, but just a poem.

But you've probably seen the videos shot from the top floors of some hotel next to the Indian Ocean during tsunami. You've seen people approaching the receding ocean waters in curiosity. Only few of them survived, those who managed to climb and hold to the tallest palm trees.

An there also was this 5-th grade girl who recently had class about tsunamis, seen the receeding waters and told everyone in earshot to run thus saving lives of multiple people.

Same thing is happening here, except the "blood on the streets" is only proverbial. And the cool cats won't really need nine lives to appreciate the value of learning from the mistakes of the other people.

Edit: Ha, ha. I just re-checked the information from the poem. It appears that in English cats have nine lives, whereas in romance languages cats have seven lives. I didn't know that.

Edit #2: Not 5-th grade but 3-rd or 4-th. I found the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilly_Smith

[Foxpup]

In the game of Monopoly, they use a set amount of money. The "banker" is not allowed to print up more. Fiat money used in every day life is less honest than the game of Monopoly. Bitcoin goes up to 21 million and there will be no more.

Say what?

If the Bank runs out of money, the Banker may issue as much as needed by writing on any ordinary paper.

Fiat money is exactly like Monopoly money in every way. Be sure to tell this astounding fact to everyone you know.

[herzmeister]

Monopoly is inflating money supply every round.

[mobile4ever]

In the game of Monopoly, they use a set amount of money. The "banker" is not allowed to print up more. Fiat money used in every day life is less honest than the game of Monopoly. Bitcoin goes up to 21 million and there will be no more.

Say what?

If the Bank runs out of money, the Banker may issue as much as needed by writing on any ordinary paper.

Fiat money is exactly like Monopoly money in every way. Be sure to tell this astounding fact to everyone you know.

No, I wont... there is only a set amount available for the whole game. I will be sure to tell that to everyone I know.

[drakahn]

In the game of Monopoly, they use a set amount of money. The "banker" is not allowed to print up more. Fiat money used in every day life is less honest than the game of Monopoly. Bitcoin goes up to 21 million and there will be no more.

Say what?

If the Bank runs out of money, the Banker may issue as much as needed by writing on any ordinary paper.

Fiat money is exactly like Monopoly money in every way. Be sure to tell this astounding fact to everyone you know.

No, I wont... there is only a set amount available for the whole game. I will be sure to tell that to everyone I know.

Got the rulebook?

[Foxpup]

In the game of Monopoly, they use a set amount of money. The "banker" is not allowed to print up more. Fiat money used in every day life is less honest than the game of Monopoly. Bitcoin goes up to 21 million and there will be no more.

Say what?

If the Bank runs out of money, the Banker may issue as much as needed by writing on any ordinary paper.

Fiat money is exactly like Monopoly money in every way. Be sure to tell this astounding fact to everyone you know.

No, I wont... there is only a set amount available for the whole game. I will be sure to tell that to everyone I know.

Although only $15,140 is included in a standard set, the rules explicitly allow for more money to be issued if the initial supply runs out. Go get out your monopoly set, find the booklet that says "Rules" and read it. The only things with a fixed supply in Monopoly are properties, houses, and hotels. Money in Monopoly is unlimited.

[mobile4ever]

In the game of Monopoly, they use a set amount of money. The "banker" is not allowed to print up more. Fiat money used in every day life is less honest than the game of Monopoly. Bitcoin goes up to 21 million and there will be no more.

Say what?

If the Bank runs out of money, the Banker may issue as much as needed by writing on any ordinary paper.

Fiat money is exactly like Monopoly money in every way. Be sure to tell this astounding fact to everyone you know.

No, I wont... there is only a set amount available for the whole game. I will be sure to tell that to everyone I know.

Got the rulebook?

Figured I would hammer the point in...

The distribution of cash in the U.S. version has changed with the newer release versions. Older versions had a total of $15,140 in the following amounts/colors:

The newer (September 2008) editions have a total of $20,580, with 30 of each bill denomination.

But!

Paper money that is theoretically unlimited; if the bank runs out of money the players must make do with other markers, or calculate on paper. Additional paper money can be bought at certain locations, notably game and hobby stores, or downloaded from various websites and printed and cut by hand (one such site has created a $1,000 bill for the game; it is not one of the standard denominations). In the original U.S. standard editions, the supply generally starts with $15,140.

When the game is played normally you can actually RUN OUT of money. But theoretically... yes you can print  up money and play like the "Big Boys".


I was not talking theoretically.

[drakahn]

Well no, even your quote says as much can be printed "the players must make do with other markers, or calculate on paper."

[Foxpup]

Paper money that is theoretically unlimited; if the bank runs out of money the players must make do with other markers, or calculate on paper. Additional paper money can be bought at certain locations, notably game and hobby stores, or downloaded from various websites and printed and cut by hand (one such site has created a $1,000 bill for the game; it is not one of the standard denominations). In the original U.S. standard editions, the supply generally starts with $15,140.

When the game is played normally you can actually RUN OUT of money. But theoretically... yes you can print  up money and play like the "Big Boys".


I was not talking theoretically.

There's nothing "theoretical" about it: the official rules specifically state that you are allowed to do this. This is the normal way of playing. The bank cannot run out of money when playing using the official rules. Please read the rules rather than quoting Wikipedia out of context.