Miracles of Quran

[Muhammed Zakir]

Hate to burst your cookierun bubble but you keep apparently quoting the use of the word orbit in arabic in the cookierun.

Sadly the first use and definition of the word orbit came long after the cookierun were written so your assertion that they even used the word orbit is pure speculation and yet again your own interpretation of whatever the hell the arabic word should mean today.

Origin
Mid 16th century (in sense 3 of the noun): from Latin orbita 'course, track' (in medieval Latin 'eye socket'), feminine of orbitus 'circular', from orbis 'ring'.


That said, all holy scriptures read just like the entries in Nostrodamus daily diary. Vague as shit and can be interpreted in a thousand different ways.

No problem! It is good to hear others opinions too. What you said is true but you are mistaken. If your mother tongue is Arabic, for example, you won't translate Arabic to English for your brain to understand. You will understand Arabic by hearing/reading it.

 This is the same mechanism which works here. Humans were same earlier too except a few hanges happened regarding lifespan, height etc... So when Arabs here these verses, they will understand what it means. Besides, "path" itself is enough.

It is a metaphor. Think about it. If you know different shapes of moon and how old (and withered) lower part of a date-stalk looks, you will understand.

FFS, please decide whether you want to play your 'miracle' cards as "amazing science facts nobody could have known about at the time" and "Hey, lighten up, it's just a metaphor, it has meaning and depth and . . .[insert equally vapid nonsense here]"

You can't have it both ways. Either you are presenting 'miracles' of there being scientifically-sound assertions within that book or you're wanting to discuss metaphors and poetry, which isn't the topic of this thread.

Do you know what intellectual integrity means? Serious question.

I am not discussing about "poetry" in this thread. However, when you misunderstood it, I said about it.

You can say miracles in poetic way too. I don't think miracles should only be told in simple English.

[Muhammed Zakir]

I can't comment on "Mosque" as it looks like photoshopped. However, it may or may not be true. I haven't researched about it.

There's no reason to suspect it is photoshopped, simply understanding basic science would explain why the MOST SOLIDLY built structure in the vicinity managed to survive while those NOT BUILT TO THE SAME STANDARD as the mosque, were swept away.

That close to the ocean, how would you have a good foundation?  It's not impossible, say they dug ten meters down and started piling rock up to the surface, then built the mosque.  Just unlikely. 

IF IT'S NOT PHOTOSHOPPED....then let's have the location of that beach and mosque and we'll look at it on Google Earth.

Like I said, I haven't believed in it. I will have to research more about it but atm, I am using mobile. Will try to post here about the source of that image and whether the mosque is real etc...

[Spendulus]

you really need to read your comment before you post them. you twist lines so much that in the end you make fun of yourself.

Oh, ok, you're just sticking with "I know you are, but what am I?" level of infantile response.

Thanks for the debate about how great your book is. You managed to prove without doubt that it isn't by way of your failure to rebut any of the objectively reasoned challenges made towards your 'miracles'.

True, but 7th century Middle Eastern people knew astrology.  The Islamic calendar was used to predict eclipses, so they had knowledge of the lunar cycles.

There are arcane rules based on the relative sky position of the sun and moon determining what day starts each month in Saudi Arabia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar

Saudi Arabia uses the sighting method to determine the beginning of each month of the Hijri calendar. Since AH 1419 (1998/99) several official hilal sighting committees have been set up by the government to determine the first visual sighting of the lunar crescent at the beginning of each lunar month. Nevertheless, the religious authorities also allow the testimony of less experienced observers and thus often announce the sighting of the lunar crescent on a date when none of the official committees could see it.
....
Before AH 1420 (before 18 April 1999), if the moon's age at sunset in Riyadh was at least 12 hours, then the day ending at that sunset was the first day of the month. This often caused the Saudis to celebrate holy days one or even two days before other predominantly Muslim countries, including the dates for the Hajj, which can only be dated using Saudi dates because it is performed in Mecca.

For AH 1420–22, if moonset occurred after sunset at Mecca, then the day beginning at that sunset was the first day of a Saudi month, essentially the same rule used by Malaysia, Indonesia, and others (except for the location from which the hilal was observed).

[cryptodevil]

True, but 7th century Middle Eastern people knew astrology.  The Islamic calendar was used to predict eclipses, so they had knowledge of the lunar cycles.

I'd hazard a guess that Mo wasn't quite so enlightened. According to reports he, metaphorically speaking, crapped his pants when he experienced a Solar eclipse.

[Spendulus]

.....

One word: Eclipse.

Sooooooo, yet another 'miracle' bites the dust.

NEXT!.....


  From the modern perspective, to say that the Sun tries to catch up the Moon (but is not permitted to do so) is laughably naïve. The Moon’s orbit around the Earth has no overlap with the Sun’s location in space, since the Moon orbits the Earth once in around 27.3 days (the “sidereal month”), and the system Earth–Moon orbits the Sun once per year (see diagram).

....
Seeing as you did the same thing with the first 'miracle' of the mosque, I'm assuming you want to do the same thing with the 'miracle' of the absurd Sun/Moon quote, so I'm saying go for it. Let's have the next one seeing as you have nothing to challenge my take-down of your 'miracles.'

This diagram is completely wrong.  The moon never goes "backwards" in it's orbit around the Sun.   It goes backwards in it's orbit around Earth, but it's velocity is much lower than the Earth.  The Moon moves about 1 kilometer per second relative to the Earth and the Earth relative to the Sun about 30 kilometer per second.

The Moon has an elliptical orbit around the Sun, then with a velocity relative to the Sun of 29 - 31 kilometers per second.  

This link shows why the drawing is in error, and what the correct path is like.

http://www.wired.com/2012/12/does-the-moon-orbit-the-sun-or-the-earth/

[redsn0w]

Can I ask you , where is the problem if someone think those things are a miracle because they are written a lot of years before "the civilization[/in]". Everyone's free to believe at whatever he wants or am I wrong? The only things he should not it is to force other people to believe to those things.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, they are not entitled to their own facts.

If you start a thread titled, "Miracles of Quran", expect to be asked to objectively prove your claim. Otherwise you're just demanding we all stfu and listen to the bullshit 'wisdom' being spouted by the delusional and intellectually dishonest.

No, I am not demanding to "stfu" and listen to all their "miracles"; only a little bit of respect of the other opinions, and I know some people can't agree in something ... this is normal, but I also think that there are a lot of way to reply.

I can't comment on "Mosque" as it looks like photoshopped. However, it may or may not be true. I haven't researched about it.

There's no reason to suspect it is photoshopped, simply understanding basic science would explain why the MOST SOLIDLY built structure in the vicinity managed to survive while those NOT BUILT TO THE SAME STANDARD as the mosque, were swept away.

That close to the ocean, how would you have a good foundation?  It's not impossible, say they dug ten meters down and started piling rock up to the surface, then built the mosque.  Just unlikely. 

IF IT'S NOT PHOTOSHOPPED....then let's have the location of that beach and mosque and we'll look at it on Google Earth.

Like I said, I haven't believed in it. I will have to research more about it but atm, I am using mobile. Will try to post here about the source of that image and whether the mosque is real etc...

The photo is real , check the article of the various online newspapers .

[Muhammed Zakir]

@Spendulus: Why bumping post which is answered and discussed earlier? If you have any questions, ask it rather than spreading doubts.

Because I'm the only one presenting objectively reasoned facts to prove your claims towards 'miracles' in your book as being utter tripe. You just keep on repeating the same text as though that somehow qualifies as an answer.

Have you took the time to read what you quoted?

What? “It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon?” The above verse is either ridiculous or wrong, depending on whether we try to understand it from the modern perspective or from the Bedouins’ perspective, respectively.

Wrong understanding.

Here is why:

[ img]http://www.foundalis.com/rlg/Sun-Moon.gif[/img]

  From the modern perspective, to say that the Sun tries to catch up the Moon (but is not permitted to do so) is laughably naïve.

Tries to catch up? You must be kidding! In Qur'an it is mentioned "not permitted to sun to catch up moon". You are making mistranslation.

The orbit of the Moon (gray) around the Earth’s orbit (blue circle) and around the Sun (red, center).
Note: not drawn to scale, and also the Moon completes approximately 13 turns in a year, not exactly 13.
Observation from this diagram: to say that the Sun, in reality, “tries to catch up the Moon”, makes no sense at all.

Right.

So, because according to what we know today it is just plain stupid to say that the Sun tries to catch up the Moon, there is only one possibility: that verse 36:40 was said that way for the Bedouins to make some sense of it. But in that case,... it’s wrong again!

Read the verse correctly. It never said sun tries to catch uo the moon. Blatant lie!

Seeing as you did the same thing with the first 'miracle' of the mosque, I'm assuming you want to do the same thing with the 'miracle' of the absurd Sun/Moon quote, so I'm saying go for it. Let's have the next one seeing as you have nothing to challenge my take-down of your 'miracles.'

I can't comment on "Mosque" as it looks like photoshopped. However, it may or may not be true. I haven't researched about it.

Although, to be honest, both of you are choosing to miss out this little clanger I found when looking for a version of the quote with your preferred grammar:

"It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the night outstrip the day, each just swims along in its own orbit."

One word: Eclipse.

Sooooooo, yet another 'miracle' bites the dust.

NEXT!

Read more. Here you go: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse

A pic:



^^^ "A symbolic orbital diagram from the view of the Earth at the center, with the sun and moon projected upon the celestial sphere, showing the Moon's two nodes where eclipses can occur."

[cryptodevil]

No, I am not demanding to "stfu" and listen to all their "miracles"; only a little bit of respect of the other opinions, and I know some people can't agree in something ... this is normale, but I also think that there are a lot of way to reply.

I don't respect opinion that is doggedly maintained in the face of objectively reasoned facts which contradict said opinion.

I also don't respect intellectual dishonesty or logical fallacies.

You will see that I generally challenge the content of the post, not the poster, except when the poster continues to ignore the facts they are being presented with and simply repeats the same fallacious reasoning they started the discussion with.

@Zakir, by the way, don't think we can't see how you keep trying to avoid the facts of the posts concerned so you can complain about how they are being reposted.

Pro-tip: Try actually responding to the content of the challenge to your claims, instead of pretending like you already did.

[Spendulus]

True, but 7th century Middle Eastern people knew astrology.  The Islamic calendar was used to predict eclipses, so they had knowledge of the lunar cycles.

I'd hazard a guess that Mo wasn't quite so enlightened. According to reports he, metaphorically speaking, crapped his pants when he experienced a Solar eclipse.

I'd guess he had sort of the common man's understanding of eclipses, that they were awesome and important events in the Heavens.  Maybe that some wise men could predict them.  Translated in the mindset of that time to "God spoke to the wise men."

[Enfield]

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Quran#Stars_are_Missiles_Shot_at_Devils

I think the biggest miracle with the Quran is people actually believe it. Though you can same the same with any other religion really.

[Spendulus]

@Spendulus: Why bumping post which is answered and discussed earlier? If you have any questions, ask it rather than spreading doubts.
...

It's okay to spread doubt, where doubt should exist.  This is the nature of critical examination of a subject.
 
I have not seen any evidence here from the Koran of a level of knowledge of astrology higher than a common man might have had from looking at the skies.  I have seen zero knowledge of astronomy in the modern sense.

These claims have been made, but they are not supportable.

The Koran does not have amazing miraculous revelations about astronomy.

[Muhammed Zakir]

=snip=
@Zakir, by the way, don't think we can't see how you keep trying to avoid the facts of the posts concerned so you can complain about how they are being reposted.

Pro-tip: Try actually responding to the content of the challenge to your claims, instead of pretending like you already did.

Thanks for the tip. It will be helpful if you can direct me to the "challenges".

True, but 7th century Middle Eastern people knew astrology.  The Islamic calendar was used to predict eclipses, so they had knowledge of the lunar cycles.

I'd hazard a guess that Mo wasn't quite so enlightened. According to reports he, metaphorically speaking, crapped his pants when he experienced a Solar eclipse.

I'd guess he had sort of the common man's understanding of eclipses, that they were awesome and important events in the Heavens.  Maybe that some wise men could predict them.  Translated in the mindset of that time to "God spoke to the wise men."

Muhammad(PBUH) didn't said it and it isn't mentioned in Qur'an too.

[rememberme]

You know we are shooting through space which has no scale (both sides infinite if considered).

We are nor small or big, we are just present.

INFINITY.

[rememberme]

Sad to see the limitations set upon yourselves, regardless of what religion or book.

[Muhammed Zakir]

It's okay to spread doubt, where doubt should exist.  This is the nature of critical examination of a subject.
 
I have not seen any evidence here from the Koran of a level of knowledge of astrology higher than a common man might have had from looking at the skies.  I have seen zero knowledge of astronomy in the modern sense.

These claims have been made, but they are not supportable.

The Koran does not have amazing miraculous revelations about astronomy.

Qur'an came to us a long time ago. Even things in Qur'an was found recently(in the past 400 years or so). A common man can see it easily now because he studies it in School.

[Muhammed Zakir]

Miracle #3:

55 :33 - “If you have power to pass beyond the zones of the sky and the earth, then (go ahead and) pass beyond (them) ! But you will never be able to pass them except with a tremendous force.”

Whether to send a satellite up the space, despatch instruments to explore Mars or to send man to moon - the rocket to carry them can lift off the surface of the earth only if it develops a force exceeding earth’s gravity. This velocity, termed escape velocity of a heavenly body, depends upon its gravity.

Holy Qur’an was revealed in an age when even air flight by man could hardly be given a thought, let alone attempted. How then it could give a hint to man (and jinn) about possibility of space travel is truly amazing. Could have this concept been authored by man? Absolutely no chance! As the most illustrious poets of Prophet’s (Pbuh) time admitted defeat on going through Qur’an:

[Spendulus]

It's okay to spread doubt, where doubt should exist.  This is the nature of critical examination of a subject.
 
I have not seen any evidence here from the Koran of a level of knowledge of astrology higher than a common man might have had from looking at the skies.  I have seen zero knowledge of astronomy in the modern sense.

These claims have been made, but they are not supportable.

The Koran does not have amazing miraculous revelations about astronomy.

Qur'an came to us a long time ago. Even things in Qur'an was found recently(in the past 400 years or so). A common man can see it easily now because he studies it in School.

No, we have much written material from the 7th century, and before and after it.  We have the Greek works on science, nature and the cosmos. 

[Muhammed Zakir]

Qur'an came to us a long time ago. Even things in Qur'an was found recently(in the past 400 years or so). A common man can see it easily now because he studies it in School.

No, we have much written material from the 7th century, and before and after it.  We have the Greek works on science, nature and the cosmos. 

I don't know about all theories of that time but some of them is already proved to be false like the system cryptodevil mentioned.

[rememberme]

So everything is wrong except whats in the Qur'an?

[cryptodevil]

Miracle #3:

55 :33 - “If you have power to pass beyond the zones of the sky and the earth, then (go ahead and) pass beyond (them) ! But you will never be able to pass them except with a tremendous force.”

Even a child could tell you that it takes an enormous amount of force to get into space. Simply by trying to throw a rock up to the moon, something as infantile as that, would result in acknowledging that the only way to make your stone go far enough would require a tremendous amount of force, far beyond that which you can give it.

See? A child's logic would come up with with the same thing. What's so miraculous about that?