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Author Topic: [ANN]ORA::NXT MS Currency::'Shuffling' for NXT::jl777 involved::Anon fungibility  (Read 5757 times)
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Kora (OP)
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April 24, 2015, 06:18:05 AM
Last edit: April 24, 2015, 07:08:19 AM by Kora
 #1

Introducing "ORA::Shuffling"

NXT can become anonymous via 'Shuffling' tech!

ORA has existed as a leaderless decentralized community based 'starfish' project in search of a purpose for almost a year now.

We now have a (possible) purpose thanks to a wonderful suggestion by user 'Jack Needles'.

We also have in principle support from jl777, a true crypto dev powerhouse, to help us pursue 'ORA::shuffling' further, so this idea is much more than mere brainstorming.

ORA *could* become the default 'shuffling' MS currency that adds anon capabilities to NXT.


If this idea is going to work we need community support and engagement NOW!

To get everyone up to speed asap I've decided to put everything 'out there' without any editing to speak of, so what follows is the full communication between myself and jl777 regarding 'ORA as the default NXT shuffling currency' idea over the last couple of days.

Please forgive the verbosity, but I favor full disclosure where possible, and I am not a tech person myself, so there is a great need for input and suggestions from those with skills and ideas in order to achieve this goal.

Adding anon capabilities to NXT via 'shuffling' is a BIG thing, and as a community based project with a solid history for honesty and integrity over nearly 12 months now (i.e. free stakes via webapp registration, sockpuppet countermeasures, no IPO, no 'funny business') ORA is in a great position to make NXT shuffling work, so this is well worth the read, and (hopefully) worth getting involved with!!

If you're looking for a community based decentralized project to get involved with, consider ORA!!


Quote
Kora forum post

The other day forum member 'Jack Needles' suggested a possible use case for ORA MS currency as the 'go-to' coin to anonymize NXT accounts via 'shuffling'. I think this is an excellent idea to pursue further, as basic fungibility of crypto currencies is in serious doubt without the ability of ALL users to periodically anonymize their coins when they wish. ORA will be (probably) the MS coin with the widest distribution (and we still have coins to distribute too!), so Jack Needles suggestion is try and position ORA MS as the NXT communities defacto 'shuffle coin' is definiely worth debating & exploring further! Thanks Jack Smiley



Quote
jl777 forum post

I like this idea of a default shuffle coin!
It will require payments on a regular basis for the tx
However, I think what would be most effective is to have a single block every so often where all the shuffling happens

No matter how good the shuffling if the total anon set it 2, then it has little privacy.
But if ALL ORA users at block N*1000 did the shuffle, then it will do a few things
a) totally fill up some NXT blocks
b) randomize which tx end up in these full blocks
c) create a pretty large anon set, which will allow others to more safely mix their tx during this specified block
d) create regular (weekly?) events that are at least noticeable

However, ORA will need to have a meaningful market value for it to be useful for doing anything real.

The total value should be > than the total tx volume of these shuffling blocks. I have an idea for this.

Also, I think someone can make a shuffle party plugin so you can set it to be active and it shows some cool countdown sequence, or just memes to tie it into its MIC

history

James



Quote
Kora forum post

Thanks for the support James, very much appreciated!!

I agree that for ORA to become useful as the default shuffle MS it needs a wide distribution and a decent market value, so any ideas you have for making those two more likely would be excellent James.

We still have a good chunk of coins to distribute (the exact amounts for the distro has changed as circumstances of the project have changed from the original idea back in May 2014). Originally the balance of coins was going to pay bounties for developers and community workers, but that was all based on ORA being a separate coin with a blend of new and old tech with its own P2P network. As that is redundent now we could always explore distribution ideas to meet other goals, or even reduce the coin supply and have no more distro.

Since the decision to go with the MS idea was made we tried and experimented with an idea suggested by BTM's coinsolidation to let holders of other dead and dying coins 'burn' other coins for ORA MS coins. Darkhorse did this with holders of a late 2014 scam coin 'ReserveShare' initially as his own project, and we did plan to do more of these coin 'assimilations' to get a wider distribution, with the biggest being the merger with MIC.

We can always re-assess the best method of further distribution to suite the current needs. My primary goal is not to sell coins, but give them away in ways that add value to the project, so something more meaningful than an "interested". We did have plans originally for "proof of action" giveaways, like entries in out short film competition "Cryptofest", but none of them has been very successful to date.

Any ideas you have James for how to distribute further ORA to make the shuffling idea work better are most welcome! I do like the "shuffle plugin" idea showing MIC memes to NXT inspired music, that's fun, and that's always been part of NXT, and crypto ingeneral!!



Quote
jl777 PM

I want to help

What is the current distribution of ORA? At least theoretically when all the outstanding balance issues are settled?

James



Quote
Kora PM

Thanks James!!

The current distribution is a bit ambiguous. By that I mean we were always open to discussing options for how to proceed as circumstances changed, so things are a bit complicated

The original idea from May 2014 was:
50% - distributed equally to ~3000 webapp registration applicants
5% - goes to the registration webapp dev
5% - goes to the dev who clones Qora, and creates the Kora wallet applications
2% - Kora founder fast tracking expense account PAID
8% - goes to node bot bounties
4% - website & marketing
1% - Qora dev
25% - POWER BOUNTIES

We only reached ~890 staked from the first webapp registration, so what we did was distribute ~890 lots of 166,000 ORA, which was the stake size assuming we had reached out goal (i.e. 50% of 1billion is 500 million, divided by 3000 = 166,000 ORA per stake). The plan was to continue with "proof of action" type distribution up to the goal of 3000 initial stakeholders.

Then the our lead dev went MIA, and we pivoted the plan to the MS (which was a better option anyway IMO). That meant some of the original distro items were not relevant, so what was left was more like:

50% - distributed equally to ~3000 webapp registration applicants
5% - goes to the registration webapp dev
5% - goes to the dev who clones Qora, and creates the Kora wallet applications
2% - Kora founder fast tracking expense account PAID
8% - goes to node bot bounties
4% - website & marketing
1% - Qora dev
39% - POWER BOUNTIES

My 2% was a personal expense account which I was using to fast track some things like bounties to the first few guys who started helping me (like Darkhorse) and the ORA asset faucet etc while we developed proper decentralised starfish community processes for decision making, so I bought on the NXT AE all of my personal stake (~11million ORA).

The "power bounties" are dev and community worker bounties, to be voted on by the community over time, assuming a lot more dev work was going to be needed with out own coin.

The coin 'assimilations' Darkhorse planned to do (including, I think,  MIC) were coming out of the ~2100 first round left overs (i.e. we only distributed 890 of the 3k, so we had 2110 166K ORA stakes left over from the 50%).

Before DH disappeared we were still discussing things based on many more coin assimilations like MIC and 'reserveshare' were going to happen, but I think with DH gone (and coinsolidation who suggested that idea and offered to help), and this current focus on 'default shuffling coin', what we end up with probably more like this:

50% - distributed equally to ~3000 webapp registration applicants (+ MIC redemptions) - about 50% left
5% - goes to the registration webapp dev PAID
2% -Kora founder fast tracking expense account PAID (about 50% left, i.e. 1% of coin supply still unspent)
4% - website & marketing AVAILABLE - 100% left
39% - POWER BOUNTIES AVAILABLE - 100% left

Of the 50%, probably about half is still available, but I'd have to check to be certain.

So ... it's a bit complicated, but the TL,DR is we have plenty of ORA left to play with.



Quote
jl777 PM

I have some silver coins that I planned to use to promote MS with
I am thinking that we can back the ORA with the silver coins to give it some specific value
it is the pondsea supernet coins



Quote
Kora PM

Ok, that's a good idea James! I just received my order of 5 silver supernet coins yesterday, so I can vouch for them, very nice job he did!!

Can I assist with that?




Quote
jl777 PM

We would need to come up with some sort of exchange rate and the the lot of these coins can provide backing for all of ORA

Then we can add value by making the shuffle plugin and I can start using it for some other use cases. The key is to push into it enough hard value so it has enough value for meaningful transactions. Which then provides the environment for getting more usages, etc.

Now this will mean a giant windfall to all ORA owners...

So, to make this fair, the community needs to agree to a few things. First we need the plugin to be written that does the synchronized shuffle. Second we need everybody to agree to spend the 1 NXT tx fee at least once per week for at least a year. But probably just monthly at first.

If you can make these things happen, I would be willing to dilute the value of the silver coins, but there needs to be strong and active community based around cooperatively creating these shuffle blocks. It will become the safest way to transact!

If we can get 1000 different nodes all transacting the same block(s), it makes for a very nice anon set indeed

James



Quote
Kora PM

Ok, so our goal is:
1- shuffling plugin developed and paid for
2- everybody to agree to spend the 1 NXT tx fee at least once per week for at least a year. But probably just monthly at first (maybe we need an added incentive for these shuffling nodes??)
3- ideally 1000 nodes online shuffling at all times

Ok, I will propose this to the ORA community and try to get a plan of action to take us forward!!



Quote
jl777 PM

for 3, it is not realistic to be shuffling all the time, just not enough people doing enough tx. But by coordinating everybody (using tech to get precise sync) we can flood the network with all the shuffle tx at the same time. This does a few things. In addition to providing the cover traffic for people that want to maintain privacy, if you are doing this every week (along with everybody else), then when you want to do a real tx shuffled, it looks exactly the same as a normal week where you are just doing the synchronized!

So the incentive is that by working together we all get a safe time to transact with a 1000+ possibile source and destination, baasically everybody looks the same as they are always doing the same, so nothing to latch onto.

Now the incentive (2) that you ask for is the following:
"estimate what the value of a currency that provides the highest level of cover traffic"
This is a non-tech aspect that combines with the shuffling tech magnificently, together it is actually quite a good privacy and with so many people involved, the word will spread and then it will get more and more use, which will increase its price.

The good old fashioned "increase in market value" should provide the incentive, as long as the vision is communicated.

Also, we can use InstantDEX to trade it so there will be an active near realtime market for it during the non-shuffle times

James



Quote
Kora PM

Ok, got it, or most of it anyway!! What you're describing sounds like an incredible opportunity for us. I agree that the expected increase in ORA value is incentive enough, or it should be. We still have plenty of ORA to distribute if we need, and my feeling is some sort of MIC styled promo giveaway on nxtforum.org would spread ORA around to stakeholders more likely to appreciate the opportunity for ORA with this shuffling idea (i.e. free giveaway to NXTers for memes or something similar). I don't think ORA has much traction on bitcointalk.org now.

I'm not much of a tech guy myself (more someone who has some appreciation for the big picture), would you mind if I quoted some of your PM's in my posts to help people understand what's on offer for ORA with shuffling, and what we need to do as a community to make it happen? Your explanations are far superior to anything I could do!

Also, just to confirm, would ORA holders need to have their NXT account logged in to act as a shuffling node, similar to how forging works? If that is true, then maybe we could distribute some of the remaining ORA to shufflers based on something similar to forging (i.e. you get some ORA when you're running the shuffling plugin using some formula that takes into account your balance and/or how often you're assisting the shuffling process). Even if just for the first few months it might help get people shuffling. I agree the increase in value *should* be incentive enough, but I worry that apathy might make it hard to reach a target of 1000, assuming the user needs to have their account with ORA online and unlocked/shuffling. If in fact the shuffling process still works with 'passive' participation, then 1000 target should be easy to reach. Am I correct in thinking the shuffling plugin would require similar setup for the user as forging (i.e. account unlocked on a running NXT node)?

thanks James Smiley



Quote
jl777 PM

I can only guess at the details, but my assumption is that to shuffle, you just need to send a payment. So to do that you have to be online at the designated time(s) and have enough NXT in the acct.

Why not to reserve ORA as incentive to do this, like NSC is used to encourage hallmarked nodes. So people that shuffle get more ORA.

no problems in quoting me and if there is a thread with specific question, I can post there directly. At some point, I might come up with some special offchain shuffling where people would just be able to run it in the background, no NXT fees. My idea is that we circulate small amounts of ORA offchain, using people's ORA, but they are not paying out of pocket for this, so even if it is stolen, it is not a giant loss.

Now imagine all this ORA constantly being bounced around offchain. It will be like oxygen in the air. Almost always enough to breathe, but not enough to be able to extract it and sell it. So some sort of public service to jump start the oxygen supply. Now who is tracking every oxygen molecule? As that is what would need to be done to break the privacy at this level

So this is quite a significant thing, but it requires community, active and dedicated more than anything else. Once ORA becomes the anonymous oxygen for crypto, we can do transactions via osmosis

James


Some Issues to consider (please add more!):
- we have plenty of ORA left over from first round distribution
- we have less dev & network support expenses as an MS currency
- we need as many ORA holders 'shuffling' as possible
- how can we motivate people to 'shuffle'?
- how do we pay for the shuffle plugin?
- what further distribution do we need (if any) to achieve our goal?


Some ORA stakeholders sent their ORA & MIC assets to the redemption address, but many did not - if this idea 'works' ORA *could* experience a lot more attention & a windfall gain for current holders. I advise ORA stakeholders to adjust offers on the NXT AE for ORA accordingly.

Please have your say on anything related to 'ORA::shuffling', ideas for further distribution of ORA - anything you think is relevant to making this new direction for ORA successful!

More information on 'shuffling' can be found here :
Some discussion on the forum:
https://nxtforum.org/monetary-system/ms-coin-for-shuffling-nxt/

Feature description on bitbucket:
https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/issue/135


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April 24, 2015, 07:00:49 AM
 #2

Great news. Lets make it happen.
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April 24, 2015, 02:43:42 PM
 #3

glad to see this coin is still alive. Smiley keep it up!
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April 24, 2015, 10:26:35 PM
 #4

Thanks for the support guys, it means a lot, and it definitely helps to keep the 'starfish' swimming forward!!

At this stage I think our immediate concerns should be

- further distribution
   how do we get ORA into the accounts of LOTS & LOTS of people who will activate their accounts for 'shuffling' regularly

Maybe give 10% to SuperNET for distribution to SN hodlers? Those people are very likely to understand the importance of being active participants in the shuffling process (i.e. anon shuffling wont work unless we reach a critical mass of ORA transactions), so its a win:win.

What other options could we explore?


What do people think? Every idea & suggestion is worthy of consideration!!

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April 24, 2015, 11:19:27 PM
 #5

Some cool ideas here, me like. Cool

I definitely think distributing ORA to SuperNET holders would be a win-win.

Bounty for the plugin should be generous.
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April 25, 2015, 12:54:16 AM
 #6

...

Maybe give 10% to SuperNET for distribution to SN hodlers? Those people are very likely to understand the importance of being active participants in the shuffling process (i.e. anon shuffling wont work unless we reach a critical mass of ORA transactions), so its a win:win.

What other options could we explore?


What do people think? Every idea & suggestion is worthy of consideration!!
Will be better to distribute to NXT account with over 1000 NXT on it.
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April 26, 2015, 04:30:49 AM
 #7

...

Maybe give 10% to SuperNET for distribution to SN hodlers? Those people are very likely to understand the importance of being active participants in the shuffling process (i.e. anon shuffling wont work unless we reach a critical mass of ORA transactions), so its a win:win.

What other options could we explore?


What do people think? Every idea & suggestion is worthy of consideration!!
Will be better to distribute to NXT account with over 1000 NXT on it.

That's a good suggestion!! We would have to make the ORA a fixed % of the account balance to prevent gaming (i.e. people splitting larger accounts into multiple 1000 NXT), but it's definitely worth considering. The goal with this next distribution will be to spread ORA around to ACTIVE potential 'shufflers', so we want to avoid giving it to people who don't shuffle.

With the first webapp distribution we were really after 'bums on seats' (i.e. unique 'bums on seats', no sockpuppets). With this distribution we want something more - active 'ORA::shufflers' - so what conditions or attributes increase the likelihood that a person will 'shuffle' regularly?

For those not following nxtforum.org I'll re-post this here so people know what's happening on nxtforum.

Well, I will need to get some significant amount in exchange for the silver coins, so we need to come up with a reasonable valuation of pre-coins vs post-coins and allow swapping of sncoin asset for ORA.
Certainly.

Having 10% held long term wont affect usage (as long as you have enough decimals! I suggest 4)
Okay, I withdraw my caveat.  I think I speak for most of the ORA community when I say that your involvement can only be a net boon, and 10% is reasonable for the blessing of a simple C programmer (and crypto-juggernaut! Wink ) such as yourself.

If you want widespread distribution, we can do a SuperNET/NXTventure dividend. I estimate that gets it to >1000 different people, possible closer to 2000 now
Oooh, I like!  Distribute, distribute, distribute!  Get more ORA in more hands!!!

---

Does anyone have (or can recreate?) current accounting of ORA distribution?  We have ORA assets (both alive on AE, and those sent to Darkhorse for MS XOR redemption), MIC assets for XOR redemption, etc.  Did the NAS thing ever get worked out?  See... many, many questions from this straggler.

Even after all that, I think much still remains for further distribution and these worthwhile requests should be easily met.

I think we should do both:
1- 10% to jl777 as a swap for the SNcoins to add some value to ORA (beyond magic internet beans value)
2- 10% distribution to SuperNET hodlers to spread ORA around to most likely future shufflers

They add a LOT to ORA, and I'm strongly in favor of both!

As for the state of things here is a brief snapshot of the main ORA & MIC NXT accounts & balances. It will take some blockchain forensics to work everything out, but it's all there.

ORA shareholders:
http://nxtexplorer.com/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=4000&switch=9&id=16194910134118257692&p=1

ORA - 1,000,000,000 coin supply

NXT-7FPB-3K2S-M9FL-ARP4G - DH's ORA treasury - 789,364,422.00

NXT-G7QA-2KUA-BLLZ-5FUCY - DH's MIC & ORA redemption account - 66,900,878.00



MIC shareholders:
http://nxtexplorer.com/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=4000&switch=9&id=4469670021276890463&p=1

MIC - originally 1,000,000,000 coin supply - effective supply is ~250,000,000

NXT-MRCC-2YLS-8M54-3CMAJ - NXT genesis account - 750,078,280.00

NXT-G7QA-2KUA-BLLZ-5FUCY - DH's MIC & ORA redemption account - 154,592,150.00

NXT-AKCT-VSCJ-C5BC-7YT8S - MIC genesis account - 32,433,500.00



As mentioned previously, the ORA distribution plan ended up being quite fluid as the nature of the project changed. I've gone back over the discussions on oraforum.org between the ORA founders (Mac Red, Darkhorse, fragora, myself), and this was the last plan DH came up with in late december before he got hit by the floods in Malaysia.

I have a proposal. Will update later on this. I think its a win win to everyone.

We divide the fund into 2, 30% for development and 70% for distribution/merger

30%

5% - Mac Red (Webapp Dev) - Paid
5% - Lead Dev (suggestion to pay monthly base)
2% - Kora expense account - Paid
1.0% - Darkhorse - community treasurer
1.0% - Fragora - community treasurer & CryptoFest.tv dev
16% - Development Bounty

Note: I believe each of us holding some of the portion will help to accelerate develop some of the "future projects" which we do not need to wait for any of us to vote to release the bounty fund. Meaning if i or you feel that you can develop an individual project under you, you can use the fund that is allocated to yourself. Any big project, we can vote to release from the Bounty fund.

70%

The 10% balance reducing from the MS pot.
1st Project - ORA stakeholders will be allocated based from their holding. If we allocated 10%, for every 1 Ora they hold, they will receive 0.38 MS ORA. Or if we allocated 15%, then for every 1 Ora they hold, they will receive 0.55 MS Ora.

Balance will be re-distributed via merger for projects & coins.

Outputs please.

but those numbers (30% for dev, & 70% for original ORA distro + MIC assimilation + future assimilations) were based on the assumption that we would do a number of further coin assimilations, and I think we (probably) all agree we should just finish MIC assimilation (ReserveShare was already completed and funded from ORA founder donations), so we have plenty of room to change the distribution to add 10% for James' silver coin swap, and 10% for SuperNET hodlers.

DH based his MIC:XOR exchange rate (1MIC=0.22 XOR) on the assumption of multiple further coin assimilations, so we should probably alter the ORA:MIC exchange rate in favour of MIC. If we assume 1MIC=0.5 XOR for example we would get something like this:

10% - jl777 SNcoin swap
10% - SuperNET dividend
5% - Mac Red (Webapp Dev) - Paid
5% - shuffle plugin dev
2% - Kora expense account - Paid
1.0% - Darkhorse - community treasurer
1.0% - Fragora - community treasurer & CryptoFest.tv dev
16% - Power Bounties & community funds
14.7% - ORA webapp distribution (890 stakeholders X 166,000 =  147,740,000 XOR)
12.5% - MIC assimilation (250,000,000 MIC X 0.5 = 125,000,000 XOR)
22.8% - unallocated funds

That's a starting point for discussion anyway. Please have your say and make suggestions!!

I will point out that one of ORA's original goals was always to end up with (idealised) decentralised 'starfish' community structures that were sufficiently  'robust' to handle having a large pot of community funds to pay people for their efforts (i.e. the 'power bounties') over an extended period of time, but that was based on the idea that ORA would be a separate coin & P2P network. Maybe we don't need such a large pool of community funds now, especially with all the obvious synergies available now being a NXT MS. One of my original goals though, was to be able to 'pay' people fairly for the work, and I still think that's important, but it does require sufficient collective 'trust', hence the need for community treasurers etc.

I'm very open to other opinions on this key point - distribution, decentralised community structures, paying people etc. I think for a dev it's easier to see the benefits of their work, but for other rolls like marketing, education, website maintenance, network/node support, forum participation etc etc it's often hard to distil the true value someone adds to the collective effort. My plan was to eventually use community nominations & voting to pay as many people who helped ORA as possible, once we established a viable & semi-cohesive community. I'm fully self-funded myself (I bought all of my own ORA on the NXT AE), and I will never apply for any bounties, so I'm hoping I can act as an impartial voice in the community to help navigate what *could* become quite a difficult topic at times (i.e. who gets paid what amounts for what tasks).

I'm not sure what we do with the left-over funds. We want to spread ORA as widely as possible so the shuffling reaches critical mass of volume to actually create viable anonymity, so some form of 'proof-of-action' giveaways (e.g. CryptoFest.tv entry), or maybe a giveaway to nxtforum.org users, or maybe we give some ORA to the NXT dev team and/or funding committees, should be considered to spread ORA around.

We have options!!

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April 26, 2015, 04:42:13 AM
 #8

Another option is we use any unallocated funds (22.8% in my example distro above) to fund some form of direct shuffling payment to shufflers using the plugin (i.e. similar idea to how NXT forging works, if you forge the block you get the tx fees inside that block). That's a very direct incentive to shuffle, beyond the obvious incentive that ORA will appreciate in value if shuffling works, so you should support it to achieve value increase of your ORA holdings.

The other option I like would be to do something similar to the NSC asset that NXT community pays to forgers (on top of tx fees) as an incentive to forge. Maybe we use some of the left-over ORA to back a 'shuffle asset' that functions like NSC.

Those two options meet the criteria that they encourage active shufflers, so I like them. I worry that the "shuffle to increase the value of your ORA stash" incentive will suffer from 'bystander-effect' (i.e. others will do it for me), especially for people who have modest holdings of ORA.

Direct reward for shuffling compliments stash appreciation incentive nicely.

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April 26, 2015, 09:58:05 AM
 #9

I am a shareholder from the start and are caught my ORA-saved in the account NXT-G7QA-2KUA-BLLZ-5FUCY


However, I do not like the price on AE is firing.


I think they should have fixed the problem before talking about new projects and the emergence of jl777 here.


Those who have most supported ORA are mere spectators.


The only ones who can speculate on the price and sell are not sent their ORA.

It is somewhat unfair.


Of course the result of your new proposals will be great for ORA but I hate to see prices skyrocket ORA while I can not touch mine.

I think the problem must be solved before the account NXT-G7QA-2KUA-BLLZ-5FUCY and then announce the news.

AE should not work in those circumstances where most have supported ORA are offside.


Who is selling in AE?


those who did not send their ORA to the account and were more than two months even do it.

Enough to send them and to show that they had little interest in the project time.

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April 26, 2015, 12:49:30 PM
 #10


what exactly is it you are complaining about?
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April 26, 2015, 03:21:49 PM
 #11


what exactly is it you are complaining about?

it is clear, there is an AE for buying-selling in which we are not the real ones interested in ORA. It is not an AE that it represents to the community ORA.

Those that they have supported his NOW are those that they have not wanted to send his ORA for the change for XOR, nevertheless now beneficiaries go out on having had freedom with his ORA and having sold them if this way they decide it.

An important reporting has done with the most important part of the community caught in the account NXT-G7QA-2KUA-BLLZ-5FUCY

In my opinion, if there was an important reporting, the problem of the shareholders should be had solved first, to be on equal terms in the AE.

This AE does not represent to the community ORA

Meanwhile more raise the price in the AE, now it is in historical maxima, more unjust will be this situation for the shareholders.

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April 26, 2015, 03:54:47 PM
 #12


what exactly is it you are complaining about?

it is clear, there is an AE for buying-selling in which we are not the real ones interested in ORA. It is not an AE that it represents to the community ORA.

Those that they have supported his NOW are those that they have not wanted to send his ORA for the change for XOR, nevertheless now beneficiaries go out on having had freedom with his ORA and having sold them if this way they decide it.

An important reporting has done with the most important part of the community caught in the account NXT-G7QA-2KUA-BLLZ-5FUCY

In my opinion, if there was an important reporting, the problem of the shareholders should be had solved first, to be on equal terms in the AE.

This AE does not represent to the community ORA

Meanwhile more raise the price in the AE, now it is in historical maxima, more unjust will be this situation for the shareholders.


Are you aware of the fact that there is a great deal of concern for the wellbeing of the person who collected the tokens?

Nobody knows what happened to DarkHorse, but obviously he didn't steal the pile of ORA tokens and bought a beach villa on Hawaii.



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April 26, 2015, 04:55:32 PM
 #13


what exactly is it you are complaining about?

it is clear, there is an AE for buying-selling in which we are not the real ones interested in ORA. It is not an AE that it represents to the community ORA.

Those that they have supported his NOW are those that they have not wanted to send his ORA for the change for XOR, nevertheless now beneficiaries go out on having had freedom with his ORA and having sold them if this way they decide it.

An important reporting has done with the most important part of the community caught in the account NXT-G7QA-2KUA-BLLZ-5FUCY

In my opinion, if there was an important reporting, the problem of the shareholders should be had solved first, to be on equal terms in the AE.

This AE does not represent to the community ORA

Meanwhile more raise the price in the AE, now it is in historical maxima, more unjust will be this situation for the shareholders.


Are you aware of the fact that there is a great deal of concern for the wellbeing of the person who collected the tokens?

Nobody knows what happened to DarkHorse, but obviously he didn't steal the pile of ORA tokens and bought a beach villa on Hawaii.

Since when a community depends on one person?


I've been in ORA since July / 14, do not rush, what I say is that the situation in the AE is not fair to the Shareholders.

If the price was stable there would be no problem but I just now rising to absolute maximum.

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April 26, 2015, 10:53:40 PM
Last edit: April 27, 2015, 01:04:36 AM by Kora
 #14


what exactly is it you are complaining about?

it is clear, there is an AE for buying-selling in which we are not the real ones interested in ORA. It is not an AE that it represents to the community ORA.

Those that they have supported his NOW are those that they have not wanted to send his ORA for the change for XOR, nevertheless now beneficiaries go out on having had freedom with his ORA and having sold them if this way they decide it.

An important reporting has done with the most important part of the community caught in the account NXT-G7QA-2KUA-BLLZ-5FUCY

In my opinion, if there was an important reporting, the problem of the shareholders should be had solved first, to be on equal terms in the AE.

This AE does not represent to the community ORA

Meanwhile more raise the price in the AE, now it is in historical maxima, more unjust will be this situation for the shareholders.


Are you aware of the fact that there is a great deal of concern for the wellbeing of the person who collected the tokens?

Nobody knows what happened to DarkHorse, but obviously he didn't steal the pile of ORA tokens and bought a beach villa on Hawaii.

Since when a community depends on one person?


I've been in ORA since July / 14, do not rush, what I say is that the situation in the AE is not fair to the Shareholders.

If the price was stable there would be no problem but I just now rising to absolute maximum.

@josegines, thanks for following ORA and having your say, we need as many people involved and sharing their opinions as possible, and I understand your point, and I feel your frustration (I'm in the same situation as you, ORA locked up in DH's redemption account). While there does appear to be some trade 'action' happening now on the NXT AE that you're missing out on, maybe consider that the price is rising, so if you sold now you would miss out on 'potential' gains far exceeding what we've seen so far. Everything is uncertain of course, but ORA has never had better prospects than now with the 'ORA::Shuffling' idea. Maybe one day in the future you will be thankful that your ORA was locked up and you couldn't sell. I've talked to guys who sold all their bitcoins for $3 and thought at the time they made a great profit.

As for your comment "Since when a community depends on one person?", I would honestly say the vast majority of crypto projects suffer from this problem. We like to think of crypto as being 'decentralised' because the tech is based on the revolution of the blockchain, but the reality is the 'human dimension' of crypto is still very centralised around "key people". What would happen to emunie if Fuserleer went MIA, or to Ethereum if Vitalek dropped out. Truth is most crypto projects on the human level are pyramid shaped. There are exceptions (bitcoin & NXT), but for most alt coins there are key people keeping projects moving forward, and if they drop out too early, everything can fall apart rapidly.

Now, with ORA we've tried to recognize these realities from day one and we've tried to make ORA leaderless and 'starfish' like from the get-go, but in the case of DH and his treasury account I'm not sure if we could have done anything better. Soon NXT tech will allow for rock-solid mulit-user accounts with 2 of 3 access (i.e. one rogue treasurer can't take off with community money, but 2 of 3 treasurers can still access the funds in case one guy disappears).

The problem for ORA so far is that tech isn't available yet. Should DH have given me his account password? In retrospect maybe, but what if I lost it, or I got "hacked" (which I did in January!!). Then everyone would have been critical of poor community fund security practices. Remember poor klee and the NXT community funds being stolen from his account. Also, having me separate from the community funds was always essential to develop 'trust', and for a while there ORA was really two active guys (DH & myself), plus support guys offering ideas and feedback.

Anyway, I understand your frustration, but I'm a 'glass is half full' guy, and a couple of weeks ago I was putting ORA into stasis (i.e.effectively the project was over), then the HUMAN ELEMENT of ORA - the 'starfish' stuff - kicked in:

1- Pilot offered to be a community treasurer
2- Jack Needles suggested ORA as default NXT shuffle coin
3- jl777 got "interested" and offered to help us

That makes me conclude that despite the obvious problem with our chief treasurer going missing (who I'm personally very worried about as someone I worked with and got to know as a very good colleague & friend), ORA as a leaderless decentralized 'starfish' project is actually really healthy. I have contributed very little to this re-birth (not the idea, not the tech etc), and that makes me feel great. Remember, ORA started out as a community based 'experiment', so this really is about 'the journey'. There's no script (ORA development is 100% organic & community driven), so there's no 'guru' or tech messiah in the wings ready to do everything (or anything) unless they feel its worth the effort.

@josegines, you're just as much a 'leader' of ORA as me, so have your say on what you think *could/should* be done. You mentioned maybe 'we' should have organised everything behind the scenes, then made an announcement after the new treasury accounts and distribution were done, so as not to be unfair, and I understand that point. But that assumes too much pre-planning for a truly decentralized starfish organisation. There isn't a board room , or cabinet table where decisions get made, then announced. Everything has to be as open as possible, otherwise its not a decentralized leaderless process.


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April 27, 2015, 06:55:12 AM
 #15

@Kora, Thank you very much for the explanation. Be glad to have someone as you at the head, I believe that the majority would have already retired and you continue here, then that at least places great trust in us.

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April 27, 2015, 06:28:38 PM
 #16

@Kora, Thank you very much for the explanation. Be glad to have someone as you at the head, I believe that the majority would have already retired and you continue here, then that at least places great trust in us.

He hates being called the head Smiley. Yes, he started the ORA project, but his aim all along was for the community to take over. He is unique though among crypto circles as he put his own money up to start the project, gave away most of his small ORA allocation and bought his current holdings on the AE

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April 29, 2015, 06:46:02 PM
 #17

...
Anyway, I understand your frustration, but I'm a 'glass is half full' guy, and a couple of weeks ago I was putting ORA into stasis (i.e.effectively the project was over), then the HUMAN ELEMENT of ORA - the 'starfish' stuff - kicked in:

1- Pilot offered to be a community treasurer
2- Jack Needles suggested ORA as default NXT shuffle coin
3- jl777 got "interested" and offered to help us

That makes me conclude that despite the obvious problem with our chief treasurer going missing (who I'm personally very worried about as someone I worked with and got to know as a very good colleague & friend), ORA as a leaderless decentralized 'starfish' project is actually really healthy. I have contributed very little to this re-birth (not the idea, not the tech etc), and that makes me feel great. Remember, ORA started out as a community based 'experiment', so this really is about 'the journey'. There's no script (ORA development is 100% organic & community driven), so there's no 'guru' or tech messiah in the wings ready to do everything (or anything) unless they feel its worth the effort.
...

I like to think the integrity and persistence of this project is shining through. I very much doubt it'd have gotten this kind of attention now otherwise. I also feared for ORA's heartbeat when DH never came back, think we all did. It turned out we still have more pages to write and that makes me sincerely happy, having spent countless hours with this community.

...
@josegines, you're just as much a 'leader' of ORA as me, so have your say on what you think *could/should* be done. You mentioned maybe 'we' should have organised everything behind the scenes, then made an announcement after the new treasury accounts and distribution were done, so as not to be unfair, and I understand that point. But that assumes too much pre-planning for a truly decentralized starfish organisation. There isn't a board room , or cabinet table where decisions get made, then announced. Everything has to be as open as possible, otherwise its not a decentralized leaderless process.
...

Also well said. All info is public for everyone to digest, anyone here has a chance to get his or her say.
So far it seems everyone's in agreement the general ideas floating around ITT can only lead to a stronger and bigger community.

On a side note I don't think there should be any more "waiting around" for DH to possibly show up. As soon as we got a solid plan and numbers for how to proceed then that's what we should do IMO.

// Mac
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April 30, 2015, 07:35:21 AM
 #18

Hey ORA'farians!

I suggest everyone who's following ORA and the recent discussion on the possible 'default shuffle MS coin' keep track of the discussions on nxtforum.org from now on.

As a NXT MS currency that's where the 'hearts & minds' of the majority of our community hang out.

Join in and have your say, we have our own 'child' board!

The future of ORA is being decided as I write, so head on over and express yourself!!

ORA needs your love ... TODAY Smiley

https://nxtforum.org/ora/

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May 07, 2015, 03:38:21 AM
 #19

Hi everyone, just re-posting this nxtforum.org post here for ALL interested ORAfarians Smiley



Great posts Kora and I am on board to help in any way I can, but I think filling the other roles is just a formality and this one is key --
delegated task to jl777 & team SuperNET
- recruit & pay shuffle dev
- determine how best to implement shuffle reward payment (including amount) to incentivise shuffling

Thanks for all your support frag!!

I agree that the key to success for ORA::shuffle will be getting the 'right' dev to design & code the shuffle plugin, and jl777 & team SuperNET are definitely the right people to help with that critical task. Obviously James is up to his eyeballs with InstantDEX testing at the moment (and other projects no doubt also), but if the rest of us can line up all the other 'pins' then I fully expect James will send down a 'strike' with the tech when the time is right. We have plenty of tasks to complete before then, and we still need to build strong community support & engagement before any of us will really know if ORA::Shuffle has a reasonable chance of success.

We don't have any time limits with this project, and ORA & MIC hodlers have already shown they're in for the long haul, so I think ALL ORA shufflers have sufficient patience to wait, watch & observe, and hopefully some will get more involved as we make progress with the roadmap.


Those numbers look solid to me.

Thanks Mac, as the game show hosts like to say, I'm going to lock those numbers in place now. We can revisit them later if need be, but for now lets work on the basis that the 'ORA::Shuffle' roadmap is:

Quote
'ORA::Shuffle' - semi-official provisional RoadMap
The distro:
10% - jl777 SNcoin swap
10% - SuperNET dividend
5% - Mac Red (Webapp Dev) - Paid
5% - shuffle plugin dev
2% - Kora expense account - Paid
1.0% - Darkhorse - community treasurer
1.0% - Fragora - community treasurer & CryptoFest.tv dev
14.7% - ORA webapp distribution (890 stakeholders X 166,000 =  147,740,000 XOR)
12.5% - MIC assimilation (250,000,000 MIC X 0.5 = 125,000,000 XOR)
16% - Power Bounties & community funds
22.8% - unallocated funds

So we have 38.8% in power bounties & community funds, and unallocated funds.



My Roadmap suggestion is as follows:
1- complete distro numbers
2- determine tasks needed to make ORA a leaderlss DAC/DAO
2- delegate tasks to volunteers  (i.e. 100% decision making power on how best to execute that task rests with the person who volunteered for the task)
3- volunteers execute tasks as best they can
4- everyone tries to stay 'engaged' in the future


I'm suggesting the following distro for the remaining 38.8%:
20.8%  - shuffle rewards (1,000,000 ORA per week for 4 years)
10%     - promotion & further distribution
8%      - long term community funds (ideally 4 individuals with 2% each)


Task list:
Short term Treasurers (Pilot & fragora):
- recreate ORA MS treasury account & MS currency
     - re-create balances from transactions in DH's redemption accounts
     - continue MIC & ORA asset redemptions
     - create new ORA MS currency
     - distribute 100% of ORA MS
         1- to users
         2- to other community members for other purposes (i.e. apenzl/NXTER.org & jl777/SuperNET & long term treasurers)


Promotion & further distro (NXTER.org & apenzl):
delegated task to apenzl & NXTER.org
- Promote 'ORA::shuffle' by distributing ORA in interesting ways (e.g. nxtforum.org giveaway, NXT dev team, CryptoFest etc etc)


Shuffle plugin tech (jl777 & team SuperNET):
delegated task to jl777 & team SuperNET
- recruit & pay shuffle dev
- determine how best to implement shuffle reward payment (including amount) to incentivise shuffling


Long term Community Treasurers: (unknown, looking for volunteers, Pilot & fragora if they want could retain their positions)
delegated task
- receive ORA from short term treasurers
- react to future developments in consultation with other NXT & ORA community members as needed



A few notes:
- unclaimed MIC & ORA should go into shuffle rewards pool
- Kora will pay tx fees for sending redeemed coins to ORA+MIC holders etc
- Kora will use remaining ~10M ORA from his 2% expense account to pay bounties to Pilot, Jack Needles, apenzl, jl777 etc
- DH's 1% share?? if DH doesn't return we share it between long term treasurers, or back into shuffle rewards pool?
- investigate automation for distribution of new MS currency
- who keeps SuperNET silver coins ... jl777 or long term treasuers?
- Mac Red is making a new ORA website - maybe work with apenzl & NXTER.org


Like kora mentioned I'm setting up a website to help with the promotion. Nothing fancy, a simple one-page site with room for general information and links. But with a design that IMO fits the new direction we're heading. It's 99.9% done development-wise and is ready to be filled with some actual content. Kora's agreed to help write some text, but anyone's welcome to contribute, just let me know. We'll be able to launch this site whenever we feel it'd be a good time to do so.

Good work Mac! I'll try and make a start on some basic text for the orashuffle.com website. As Mac said, everyone is more than welcome to contribute text and ideas for the new website.



I'm also going to point out that ORA starfish will turn 'one' on 22nd May 2015 (one year from my original bitcointalk.org forum announcement post). We've come a long way since then, and I'm personally very grateful to all those who have helped along the way and shown interest & support. I'm going to suggest that we set that date - 22nd May 2015 - as our cut-off date for Darkhorse to return, so unless we hear from DH before then I suggest we create the new 'ORA::shuffle' MS currency on that date and proceed with the first task, assuming Pilot & fragora are still willing to act as short-term community treasurers.

Quote
Short term Treasurers (Pilot & fragora):
- recreate ORA MS treasury account & MS currency
     - re-create balances from transactions in DH's redemption accounts
     - continue MIC & ORA asset redemptions
     - create new ORA MS currency
     - distribute 100% of ORA MS
         1- to users
         2- to other community members for other purposes (i.e. apenzl/NXTER.org & jl777/SuperNET & long term treasurers)

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May 18, 2015, 06:30:36 AM
 #20

So it's getting close to the deadline we set for Darkhorse to return (ORA's first birthday on 22 May), so we should start firming up our game plan. The first task on the roadmap is:

Quote
Short term Treasurers (Pilot & fragora):
- recreate ORA MS treasury account & MS currency
     - re-create balances from transactions in DH's redemption accounts
     - continue MIC & ORA asset redemptions
     - create new ORA MS currency
     - distribute 100% of ORA MS
         1- to users
         2- to other community members for other purposes (i.e. apenzl/NXTER.org & jl777/SuperNET & long term treasurers)

so, if Pilot & frag are still 'go' for 'ORA::shuffle' MS launch, then .... over to Pilot & frag to flick the ignition switch! I will cover the costs of all tx fees etc.

It does appear that DH is unlikely to come back, and that means we can't use the 'XOR' primo 3 character MS name he registered on the projects behalf. I do feel the loss of the 25K NXT listing fee, but honestly, the loss of the 'XOR' name hurts more. It was a cool name for 'ORA::shuffle', but it's locked up in an account we can't access! Frustration!!!

Anyway, time to move on. Hopefully DH is alright, and I bare him no ill feeling at all. DH was/is a good guy, and I'm 100% convinced his going missing couldn't be helped on his part!


One thing I would like to open up for further discussion is 'NXTignite', a new service being offered by NXTinspect.
https://nxtforum.org/asset-exchange-general/nxtignite-a-nxtinspect-(nxti)-mentorship-program/msg179192/#msg179192

Could 'ORA::shuffle' benefit from using the services of NXTignite? We have a good roadmap, but lets be honest, the ORA starfish is still quite weak, and with DH gone we have lost a permanent long-term community treasurer who was genuinely enthused for a long term commitment as the main guy co-ordinating the funds. My suggestion assumes Pilot & frag are stepping up for a 'short & sweet' burst of energy only, and aren't committing to ORA treasurer duties in an ongoing capacity into the future. If they are keen to stay on as long term treasurers, well that would be more than cool, but if they're not (i.e they're just volunteering to get the first task completed as outlined above), then maybe NXTignite could help. The escrow service looks viable as a possible long term community treasury of sorts.

I'll let Pilot & frag speak for themselves, and whatever they decide is more than cool with me, and I'm truly grateful for any help anyone can offer ORA, especially as we're a community project. I just wanted to put the NXTignite idea out there for further discussion.

NXTignite would give the ORA starfish a little more 'backbone', and exploring the option can't hurt.

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