Selling Bitcointalk Trust - which subforum to use?

[shorena]

-snip-
Indeed, and this is basically what Shorena argues above.  That because we can buy-and-sell accounts then of course we can buy-and-sell trusted accounts.  But I hope it's become quite clear that this makes the trust system effectively a system in which we can buy and sell trust.

Just to make this clear. It does - at least to me - but I dont have a solution.

I think that's what the OP was driving at, and I think it's a well-reasoned point.  I'm not sure how/why buying and selling trust isn't just as "okay" as buying and selling accounts.  As far as I can tell, it's effectively the same thing.

As it was argued by SaltySpitoon, the difference is that one (selling account) is commonly accepted by the community while the other is not (selling trust directly).

@Shorena in re whether or not default trust accounts are bought and sold.  You may be right that it doesn't happen often, but how would we really know?  I don't understand what you mean about "there'd be no incentive", it seems to me that if you have a default trust account and you have a buyer willing to pay a lot for it, the incentive is there, whether or not the two people reach a deal is some sort of empirical matter.

Yes, exactly. Lets just assume that I want to cash out big time here. I would probably start with spamming up to the max number of posts I can get payment for, Bit-X is currently not limiting the number of post I think. I might even be possible to convince marco to offer me a special deal and get paid in advance. I do write constructive posts, that is somewhat established. The next step would be to take a loan without collateral and just offer my credibility, which would probably not be worth much, but a least a bit. Finally selling the account at the same time or shortly afterwards secretly on another board (hackerboard maybe?). The sale would ofc include the private keys to addresses I posted in the past to make sure the new owner can perfectly argue (with signed message) that they are still the same person and that the loan was done by a hacker. Considering that the loaned amount would not be much, they would probably curse a bit and just repay it to stay on DefaultTrust. I should probably add my PGP key to convince Quickseller and others as well as every message I every received encrypted by them. A complete all around shorena sell out, mail, (empty) wallet, PGP key, german lessons, everything included.

I have next to no incentive to tell BadBear that I am about to sell the account and it should be removed from DefaultTrust. In fact I have an incentive to do the opposite. I find this very troubling, same as our trolling friend. I do not think that banning the sale of accounts in general is a valid option though. In the above scenario it would not make a difference whether selling the account would be allowed or not.

To make this perfectly clear: I have no plans to do what I described above. Its just a thought experiment.

Edit: I think my main point is that DefaultTrust or a green rating does not equal trustworthy.

[tspacepilot]

-snip-
Indeed, and this is basically what Shorena argues above.  That because we can buy-and-sell accounts then of course we can buy-and-sell trusted accounts.  But I hope it's become quite clear that this makes the trust system effectively a system in which we can buy and sell trust.

Just to make this clear. It does - at least to me - but I dont have a solution.

I think that's what the OP was driving at, and I think it's a well-reasoned point.  I'm not sure how/why buying and selling trust isn't just as "okay" as buying and selling accounts.  As far as I can tell, it's effectively the same thing.

As it was argued by SaltySpitoon, the difference is that one (selling account) is commonly accepted by the community while the other is not (selling trust directly).

Yes, and this is more of an observation about the state of affairs with respect to the community more than an actual difference in principle between the two topics.  As I had replied above, this is just as likely to change-as not-depending on how widely the facts of the OPs satire here get noticed.

@Shorena in re whether or not default trust accounts are bought and sold.  You may be right that it doesn't happen often, but how would we really know?  I don't understand what you mean about "there'd be no incentive", it seems to me that if you have a default trust account and you have a buyer willing to pay a lot for it, the incentive is there, whether or not the two people reach a deal is some sort of empirical matter.

Yes, exactly. Lets just assume that I want to cash out big time here. I would probably start with spamming up to the max number of posts I can get payment for, Bit-X is currently not limiting the number of post I think. I might even be possible to convince marco to offer me a special deal and get paid in advance. I do write constructive posts, that is somewhat established. The next step would be to take a loan without collateral and just offer my credibility, which would probably not be worth much, but a least a bit. Finally selling the account at the same time or shortly afterwards secretly on another board (hackerboard maybe?). The sale would ofc include the private keys to addresses I posted in the past to make sure the new owner can perfectly argue (with signed message) that they are still the same person and that the loan was done by a hacker. Considering that the loaned amount would not be much, they would probably curse a bit and just repay it to stay on DefaultTrust. I should probably add my PGP key to convince Quickseller and others as well as every message I every received encrypted by them. A complete all around shorena sell out, mail, (empty) wallet, PGP key, german lessons, everything included.

I have next to no incentive to tell BadBear that I am about to sell the account and it should be removed from DefaultTrust. In fact I have an incentive to do the opposite. I find this very troubling, same as our trolling friend. I do not think that banning the sale of accounts in general is a valid option though. In the above scenario it would not make a difference whether selling the account would be allowed or not.

To make this perfectly clear: I have no plans to do what I described above. Its just a thought experiment.

I agree with you here.  The incentive is there.  And what's more, you wouldn't even have to be going "all in" in this way.  It'd be easy enough to do a soft version of this where you don't burn all the bridges or take out loans or any other sort of disreputable action before you go.  You'd just make bank off selling your default trust.

[Quickseller]

-snip-
Indeed, and this is basically what Shorena argues above.  That because we can buy-and-sell accounts then of course we can buy-and-sell trusted accounts.  But I hope it's become quite clear that this makes the trust system effectively a system in which we can buy and sell trust.

Just to make this clear. It does - at least to me - but I dont have a solution.

I think that's what the OP was driving at, and I think it's a well-reasoned point.  I'm not sure how/why buying and selling trust isn't just as "okay" as buying and selling accounts.  As far as I can tell, it's effectively the same thing.

As it was argued by SaltySpitoon, the difference is that one (selling account) is commonly accepted by the community while the other is not (selling trust directly).

@Shorena in re whether or not default trust accounts are bought and sold.  You may be right that it doesn't happen often, but how would we really know?  I don't understand what you mean about "there'd be no incentive", it seems to me that if you have a default trust account and you have a buyer willing to pay a lot for it, the incentive is there, whether or not the two people reach a deal is some sort of empirical matter.

Yes, exactly. Lets just assume that I want to cash out big time here. I would probably start with spamming up to the max number of posts I can get payment for, Bit-X is currently not limiting the number of post I think. I might even be possible to convince marco to offer me a special deal and get paid in advance. I do write constructive posts, that is somewhat established. The next step would be to take a loan without collateral and just offer my credibility, which would probably not be worth much, but a least a bit. Finally selling the account at the same time or shortly afterwards secretly on another board (hackerboard maybe?). The sale would ofc include the private keys to addresses I posted in the past to make sure the new owner can perfectly argue (with signed message) that they are still the same person and that the loan was done by a hacker. Considering that the loaned amount would not be much, they would probably curse a bit and just repay it to stay on DefaultTrust. I should probably add my PGP key to convince Quickseller and others as well as every message I every received encrypted by them. A complete all around shorena sell out, mail, (empty) wallet, PGP key, german lessons, everything included.

I have next to no incentive to tell BadBear that I am about to sell the account and it should be removed from DefaultTrust. In fact I have an incentive to do the opposite. I find this very troubling, same as our trolling friend. I do not think that banning the sale of accounts in general is a valid option though. In the above scenario it would not make a difference whether selling the account would be allowed or not.

To make this perfectly clear: I have no plans to do what I described above. Its just a thought experiment.

Just to let you know, most of the time a condition of a sale is going to include a provision that the account does not have any outstanding loans or obligations. Any halfway decent escrow will check for this even if this isn't the case. If you were to try to sell your account with an outstanding loan would probably lead you to get negative trust and the sale would probably fall through.

You are right that you do have an incentive to not get any positive trust removed and an incentive to try to remain on default trust if you were to sell your account. The reason for this is that both will add value to your account. I would say with a good amount of certainty that a scammer could probably not scam for more then the value of your account. Yes you have the possibility to do a number of small scams in private however there is the risk that one person will be suspicious of you and will call scam then others who you are in the process of trying to scam will corroborate your scam attempts and the value of your account will plummet.

Sure there are instances where people will sell their accounts plus their private keys however trying to scam with a trusted account is a gamble at best and a gamble with small potential rewards and high risk and a generally small success rate. I would call the EV of buying a trusted and/or a default trust account to be negative by a long stretch.  

[tspacepilot]

Sure there are instances where people will sell their accounts plus their private keys however trying to scam with a trusted account is a gamble at best and a gamble with small potential rewards and high risk and a generally small success rate. I would call the EV of buying a trusted and/or a default trust account to be negative by a long stretch.  

It's impossible to calculate without real, actual, values.  The value of the default trust account to someone who's going to be walking away from the forums forever (for any imaginable reason) independently of whether they find a buyer is whatever they can get for it.  Ie, if you know you'll never use it again, then you've got every incentive to sell for whatever you find someone willing to offer.

It's impossible to say what the value of something is/isn't without knowing actual details of a given situation.  Anyone who says otherwise is engaging in mere speculation---this can be fun, but it's not solid argumentation.

[Quickseller]

Sure there are instances where people will sell their accounts plus their private keys however trying to scam with a trusted account is a gamble at best and a gamble with small potential rewards and high risk and a generally small success rate. I would call the EV of buying a trusted and/or a default trust account to be negative by a long stretch. 

It's impossible to calculate without real, actual, values.  The value of the default trust account to someone who's going to be walking away from the forums forever (for any imaginable reason) independently of whether they find a buyer is whatever they can get for it.  Ie, if you know you'll never use it again, then you've got every incentive to sell for whatever you find someone willing to offer.

It's impossible to say what the value of something is/isn't without knowing actual details of a given situation.  Anyone who says otherwise is engaging in mere speculation---this can be fun, but it's not solid argumentation.

I know what people are generally willing to pay for default trust accounts, how much default trust accounts have sold for in the past, I know how much people are generally able to hold for a third party before suspicions start getting tripped.

It is pretty rare that someone attempts to use a purchased account to scam many people for as much as possible however in almost every case that I have seen the amount scammed was significantly less then the value of the account and in cases when the amount scammed was greater then the value of the account, it was because one person who doesn't know how to take proper precautions got scammed for a large amount.

[tspacepilot]

Sure there are instances where people will sell their accounts plus their private keys however trying to scam with a trusted account is a gamble at best and a gamble with small potential rewards and high risk and a generally small success rate. I would call the EV of buying a trusted and/or a default trust account to be negative by a long stretch.  

It's impossible to calculate without real, actual, values.  The value of the default trust account to someone who's going to be walking away from the forums forever (for any imaginable reason) independently of whether they find a buyer is whatever they can get for it.  Ie, if you know you'll never use it again, then you've got every incentive to sell for whatever you find someone willing to offer.

It's impossible to say what the value of something is/isn't without knowing actual details of a given situation.  Anyone who says otherwise is engaging in mere speculation---this can be fun, but it's not solid argumentation.

I know what people are generally willing to pay for default trust accounts, how much default trust accounts have sold for in the past, I know how much people are generally able to hold for a third party before suspicions start getting tripped.

It is pretty rare that someone attempts to use a purchased account to scam many people for as much as possible however in almost every case that I have seen the amount scammed was significantly less then the value of the account and in cases when the amount scammed was greater then the value of the account, it was because one person who doesn't know how to take proper precautions got scammed for a large amount.

Your argumentation basically boils down to Argument from authority, which is a logical fallacy.

The starting point is the assumption that you know the value of the account to the seller, this is obviously highly dependent on the person and their circumstance.

[inb4 ad hominem attacks: next, QS either calls me an idiot or doesn't reply at all...]

[SaltySpitoon]

Sure there are instances where people will sell their accounts plus their private keys however trying to scam with a trusted account is a gamble at best and a gamble with small potential rewards and high risk and a generally small success rate. I would call the EV of buying a trusted and/or a default trust account to be negative by a long stretch.  

It's impossible to calculate without real, actual, values.  The value of the default trust account to someone who's going to be walking away from the forums forever (for any imaginable reason) independently of whether they find a buyer is whatever they can get for it.  Ie, if you know you'll never use it again, then you've got every incentive to sell for whatever you find someone willing to offer.

It's impossible to say what the value of something is/isn't without knowing actual details of a given situation.  Anyone who says otherwise is engaging in mere speculation---this can be fun, but it's not solid argumentation.

That is why I wanted the OP to start selling trust to see how it would play out. I want those real, actual values. But I'd agree, buying accounts is negative EV for the purpose of scamming, trust perhaps not though. Thats why I think selling accounts is more "acceptable" than selling trust. While you are correct it is more or less speculation until people start trying to sell trust, you can make certain assumptions. I've asked people to name a single proven instance where someone has purchased an account or trust to scam with. The fact that in Bitcointalk's history, no one can point out let alone one instance, there must be a reason why its not done.

I'd be happy to post my list of calculative analysis on the matter, but people don't seem to like my 4 page walls of text.

[Quickseller]

Sure there are instances where people will sell their accounts plus their private keys however trying to scam with a trusted account is a gamble at best and a gamble with small potential rewards and high risk and a generally small success rate. I would call the EV of buying a trusted and/or a default trust account to be negative by a long stretch. 

It's impossible to calculate without real, actual, values.  The value of the default trust account to someone who's going to be walking away from the forums forever (for any imaginable reason) independently of whether they find a buyer is whatever they can get for it.  Ie, if you know you'll never use it again, then you've got every incentive to sell for whatever you find someone willing to offer.

It's impossible to say what the value of something is/isn't without knowing actual details of a given situation.  Anyone who says otherwise is engaging in mere speculation---this can be fun, but it's not solid argumentation.

I know what people are generally willing to pay for default trust accounts, how much default trust accounts have sold for in the past, I know how much people are generally able to hold for a third party before suspicions start getting tripped.

It is pretty rare that someone attempts to use a purchased account to scam many people for as much as possible however in almost every case that I have seen the amount scammed was significantly less then the value of the account and in cases when the amount scammed was greater then the value of the account, it was because one person who doesn't know how to take proper precautions got scammed for a large amount.

Your argumentation basically boils down to Argument from authority, which is a logical fallacy.

The starting point is the assumption that you know the value of the account to the seller, this is obviously highly dependent on the person and their circumstance.

[inb4 ad hominem attacks: next, QS either calls me an idiot or doesn't reply at all...]

the value of an account to the seller does not matter. It could be worth 1 btc for example but the owner only values it at .75 btc, they obviously won't sell it for the lower amount, conversely if someone wrote to value their account for 1 btc but the market would only support a value of .5 btc then the account would either not sell or would sell for less then what the owner values it at.

My point is that the value of an account of ultimately determined by the market. People can give a value to their account if they want however any rational decision will be based off of market prices.

@salty- I'd be interested in seeing your calculations and no I don't mind reading your walls of text.

[tspacepilot]

Sure there are instances where people will sell their accounts plus their private keys however trying to scam with a trusted account is a gamble at best and a gamble with small potential rewards and high risk and a generally small success rate. I would call the EV of buying a trusted and/or a default trust account to be negative by a long stretch. 

It's impossible to calculate without real, actual, values.  The value of the default trust account to someone who's going to be walking away from the forums forever (for any imaginable reason) independently of whether they find a buyer is whatever they can get for it.  Ie, if you know you'll never use it again, then you've got every incentive to sell for whatever you find someone willing to offer.

It's impossible to say what the value of something is/isn't without knowing actual details of a given situation.  Anyone who says otherwise is engaging in mere speculation---this can be fun, but it's not solid argumentation.

I know what people are generally willing to pay for default trust accounts, how much default trust accounts have sold for in the past, I know how much people are generally able to hold for a third party before suspicions start getting tripped.

It is pretty rare that someone attempts to use a purchased account to scam many people for as much as possible however in almost every case that I have seen the amount scammed was significantly less then the value of the account and in cases when the amount scammed was greater then the value of the account, it was because one person who doesn't know how to take proper precautions got scammed for a large amount.

Your argumentation basically boils down to Argument from authority, which is a logical fallacy.

The starting point is the assumption that you know the value of the account to the seller, this is obviously highly dependent on the person and their circumstance.

[inb4 ad hominem attacks: next, QS either calls me an idiot or doesn't reply at all...]

the value of an account to the seller does not matter. It could be worth 1 btc for example but the owner only values it at .75 btc, they obviously won't sell it for the lower amount, conversely if someone wrote to value their account for 1 btc but the market would only support a value of .5 btc then the account would either not sell or would sell for less then what the owner values it at.

You say it does not matter but then you go on to show exactly how it does matter.  Both buyer and seller have to agree if there is a sale to be made.  If I value my account at X, then I won't sell lower than X.  That is exactly what you go on to say.  So, again, it's impossible to see how much a person would sell a (default trust) account for until someone actually puts a price on their (default trust) account.  You can't really say what the "value" of an account is independently of actual data.  This fact impunes your reasoning when you say "the value of a default trust account is always negative"---this clearly depends on the price, which you don't know until someone makes an offer.

My point is that the value of an account of ultimately determined by the market. People can give a value to their account if they want however any rational decision will be based off of market prices.

This matter is independent of theories of (ir)rationality.  You don't know the "market prices" until a sale goes down.

BTW, good job holding back on the insults!  You're making progress, it seems.

[Quickseller]

Who says that no default trust accounts have never been sold?

I can tell you for sure that this account was on default trust when it was sold; I got it removed once it tried to participate in a scam. I can also say with a good amount of certainty that it was purchased for roughly 2.5 btc and probably was able to scam for roughly zero.

[shorena]

-snip-
the value of an account to the seller does not matter. It could be worth 1 btc for example but the owner only values it at .75 btc, they obviously won't sell it for the lower amount, conversely if someone wrote to value their account for 1 btc but the market would only support a value of .5 btc then the account would either not sell or would sell for less then what the owner values it at.

My point is that the value of an account of ultimately determined by the market. People can give a value to their account if they want however any rational decision will be based off of market prices.

While its certainly true that you cant create a working asking price based on your personal feeling of a price. If my selling point is not met however I am not selling at all and thus increase the price of other accounts on the market because I lower the available supply while the demand stays the same.

@salty- I'd be interested in seeing your calculations and no I don't mind reading your walls of text.

2nd

BTW, good job holding back on the insults!  You're making progress, it seems.

No reason to start the bickering from your side now.

Who says that no default trust accounts have never been sold?

I can tell you for sure that this account was on default trust when it was sold; I got it removed once it tried to participate in a scam. I can also say with a good amount of certainty that it was purchased for roughly 2.5 btc and probably was able to scam for roughly zero.

Apparently I did not think this through in my thought experiment. Maybe because I would consider the sale in that manner a scam already. I dont see it as enabling someone to scam, but a scam in itself. It would be deceiving towards those that put trust into me as the holder of the account. A sale without proper precautions would be to misuse the trust.

I find it fascinating thought that buying an account for the purpose of scamming does not seem to ROI.

[tspacepilot]

Who says that no default trust accounts have never been sold?

I can tell you for sure that this account was on default trust when it was sold; I got it removed once it tried to participate in a scam. I can also say with a good amount of certainty that it was purchased for roughly 2.5 btc and probably was able to scam for roughly zero.

Apparently I did not think this through in my thought experiment. Maybe because I would consider the sale in that manner a scam already. I dont see it as enabling someone to scam, but a scam in itself. It would be deceiving towards those that put trust into me as the holder of the account. A sale without proper precautions would be to misuse the trust.

I find it fascinating thought that buying an account for the purpose of scamming does not seem to ROI.

There's no actual evidence here whether it does or doesn't.  This is the usual QS masterbation story, he's linking us to a thread in which he follows up on a Stunna accusation and takes credit for it in order to inflate his ego.  It's anecdotal at best, and given that all QS anecdotes are about how great he is in his own eyes, it's certainaly a questionable anecdote w.r.t. facts.

[shorena]

-snip-

I find it fascinating thought that buying an account for the purpose of scamming does not seem to ROI.

There's no actual evidence here whether it does or doesn't.  This is the usual QS masterbation story, he's linking us to a thread in which he follows up on a Stunna accusation and takes credit for it in order to inflate his ego.  It's anecdotal at best, and given that all QS anecdotes are about how great he is in his own eyes, it's certainaly a questionable anecdote w.r.t. facts.

Be that as it may, but is there any evidence that its the other way around? The scam ponzi investor based games section is filled by newbie accounts. Among ranks, the newbies will most likely have the highest percentage of negative ratings. The loan section alone produces them daily.

It certainly makes sense that buying an account for a scam does not ROI. Considering how accounts are valued as collateral items in the loaning section, the amount you could get with an account is typically in the "I could just sell it quickly and still make a little profit" area. I just wonder how this pans out so nicely. How to people know how much is an account worth, its not like there is an official price list.

[Quickseller]

Who says that no default trust accounts have never been sold?

I can tell you for sure that this account was on default trust when it was sold; I got it removed once it tried to participate in a scam. I can also say with a good amount of certainty that it was purchased for roughly 2.5 btc and probably was able to scam for roughly zero.

Apparently I did not think this through in my thought experiment. Maybe because I would consider the sale in that manner a scam already. I dont see it as enabling someone to scam, but a scam in itself. It would be deceiving towards those that put trust into me as the holder of the account. A sale without proper precautions would be to misuse the trust.

I find it fascinating thought that buying an account for the purpose of scamming does not seem to ROI.

There's no actual evidence here whether it does or doesn't.  This is the usual QS masterbation story, he's linking us to a thread in which he follows up on a Stunna accusation and takes credit for it in order to inflate his ego.  It's anecdotal at best, and given that all QS anecdotes are about how great he is in his own eyes, it's certainaly a questionable anecdote w.r.t. facts.

Yes there is. I know exactly how much the person was willing to pay for the default trust account, I know with a reasonable amount of certainty how much they were able to scam players/investors and I know with a reasonable about of certainty how much the accounts are worth now that the scam was uncovered.

I am fairly certain that there are few default trust accounts that are sold (or whose owners are considering selling their accounts) - (this is especially true now that CITM has been removed from level 1 default trust), however I can probably point to a pretty good number of default trust account sales as well as am aware of a good number of default trust accounts that may potentially be for sale, however it will be kept a secret because well a) it is none of anyone's business and b) people have incentives not to try to scam with these accounts because the potential for profit is low, the chances of success is low and the potential for loss is high, which makes an overall very bad risk profile.

As of the time that I pointed out that the account in question was purchased with the intent of scamming, no one was the wiser as to the above fact. I know that you cannot point to any post implying that the account in question was a scammer account that was made prior to me opening my scam accusation

[tspacepilot]

Who says that no default trust accounts have never been sold?

I can tell you for sure that this account was on default trust when it was sold; I got it removed once it tried to participate in a scam. I can also say with a good amount of certainty that it was purchased for roughly 2.5 btc and probably was able to scam for roughly zero.

Apparently I did not think this through in my thought experiment. Maybe because I would consider the sale in that manner a scam already. I dont see it as enabling someone to scam, but a scam in itself. It would be deceiving towards those that put trust into me as the holder of the account. A sale without proper precautions would be to misuse the trust.

I find it fascinating thought that buying an account for the purpose of scamming does not seem to ROI.

There's no actual evidence here whether it does or doesn't.  This is the usual QS masterbation story, he's linking us to a thread in which he follows up on a Stunna accusation and takes credit for it in order to inflate his ego.  It's anecdotal at best, and given that all QS anecdotes are about how great he is in his own eyes, it's certainaly a questionable anecdote w.r.t. facts.

Yes there is. I know exactly how much the person was willing to pay for the default trust account, I know with a reasonable amount of certainty how much they were able to scam players/investors and I know with a reasonable about of certainty how much the accounts are worth now that the scam was uncovered.

I am fairly certain that there are few default trust accounts that are sold (or whose owners are considering selling their accounts) - (this is especially true now that CITM has been removed from level 1 default trust), however I can probably point to a pretty good number of default trust account sales as well as am aware of a good number of default trust accounts that may potentially be for sale, however it will be kept a secret because well a) it is none of anyone's business and b) people have incentives not to try to scam with these accounts because the potential for profit is low, the chances of success is low and the potential for loss is high, which makes an overall very bad risk profile.

As of the time that I pointed out that the account in question was purchased with the intent of scamming, no one was the wiser as to the above fact. I know that you cannot point to any post implying that the account in question was a scammer account that was made prior to me opening my scam accusation

Lol.  "I know", "I know", "I am fairly certain", "I am so certain", etc, etc.  I guess one day you'll pull your head out of your own ass far enough to realize that:

1) Claims of knowing something are not evidence
2) Masterbation posts like that don't actually make you look good or knowledgeable.