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Author Topic: Why is Bitcoin still a slave of Fiat?  (Read 13396 times)
dothebeats
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April 30, 2015, 08:04:52 PM
 #21

Why is Bitcoin tied to Fiat? Why is Bitcoin value moving like a stock? satoshi said the value will be derived by the limit of total coins. But we are seeing the opposite. Why dont we mathematically calculate the value of bitcoin according to the amount of bitcoin mined?

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Agreed Value * Bitcoins Mined = New Value

0.0010 * 1 = 0.0010
0.0010 * 2 = 0.0020
[/quote

This is why (at least in my own perception)

Fiat, as we know it, is still the most widely-used form of payment or value transfer all over the world. Mankind has been using the same currency (or the same system) for centuries now, dating as far as the 11th century. Well given that time span, people would definitely still cling into fiat because it's been established for ages now, plus the fact that it's still widely-accepted all over the world. Bitcoin would probably need a large number of users and time for it to be used widely all over the world.

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May 01, 2015, 12:55:58 AM
 #22

I think the question here still goes back to asking ourselves on what we can do. As long as things are still priced in fiat, that is where the problem comes. I perform quite a lot of online marketing thing and the first thing I'll ask the seller is whether they will accept bitcoin. Most of them will agree to that, and that is how you introduce bitcoin.

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May 01, 2015, 01:07:11 AM
 #23

it won't change in the near future. people have to deal with it and stop complaining. bitcoin at this point can't function on its own value in a way that 1btc = 1btc yet. not sure when it ever will.
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May 01, 2015, 01:08:35 AM
 #24

It has to do with income tax and other money laws. No matter what you want to do with Bitcoin, you have to convert it into fiat monetary value in order to act within the "law."

This means that there isn't very much incentive to use Bitcoin, because you have to keep records in fiat form anyway. In fact, using Bitcoin means that you have to keep an extra set of records. And as long as fiat is king, there is always the conversion factor so that you retain value as it would be if you had only used fiat.

So, what's the answer? The answer involves getting back into common law. Do what you are going to do businesswise. Stop paying income taxes. Stop contracting with government regarding their laws. Sell your products without income tax, and at least some reduced regulations.

What do you do when they come after you? Never does a man come after you when government comes after you. Always it is a government agency or THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA or THE STATE OF XXXXXX that comes after you. Stand as a man in court, not represented or representing yourself. Rather, stand present in court. This means that your accuser must be a man (or woman). If your accuser is the government, they lose, because the government cannot get on the stand under oath and affirmation and say anything. And they are required to do this so that you can cross examine them.

If you need to sue a government agency, always find the human being who acted in the government capacity. Sue the human being as well as the government agency. You can do it because a government agency can never do anything wrong to you. A government agency is simply paperwork. Paperwork can't do anything. It is only when a man or woman does what some paperwork says that paperwork even looks like it can do something. But, it is always the man or woman that does it. If a man or woman wrongs you, sue them.

Watch/listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFHUt1d_JHU.

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The Pharmacist
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May 01, 2015, 02:30:44 AM
 #25

It has to do with income tax and other money laws. No matter what you want to do with Bitcoin, you have to convert it into fiat monetary value in order to act within the "law."

This means that there isn't very much incentive to use Bitcoin, because you have to keep records in fiat form anyway. In fact, using Bitcoin means that you have to keep an extra set of records. And as long as fiat is king, there is always the conversion factor so that you retain value as it would be if you had only used fiat.

So, what's the answer? The answer involves getting back into common law. Do what you are going to do businesswise. Stop paying income taxes. Stop contracting with government regarding their laws. Sell your products without income tax, and at least some reduced regulations.

What do you do when they come after you? Never does a man come after you when government comes after you. Always it is a government agency or THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA or THE STATE OF XXXXXX that comes after you. Stand as a man in court, not represented or representing yourself. Rather, stand present in court. This means that your accuser must be a man (or woman). If your accuser is the government, they lose, because the government cannot get on the stand under oath and affirmation and say anything. And they are required to do this so that you can cross examine them.

If you need to sue a government agency, always find the human being who acted in the government capacity. Sue the human being as well as the government agency. You can do it because a government agency can never do anything wrong to you. A government agency is simply paperwork. Paperwork can't do anything. It is only when a man or woman does what some paperwork says that paperwork even looks like it can do something. But, it is always the man or woman that does it. If a man or woman wrongs you, sue them.

Watch/listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFHUt1d_JHU.

Smiley

And if your advice doesn't work, which it won't, can I sue you?

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May 01, 2015, 03:17:37 AM
 #26

There is only supply and demand. Our wishes or fears about price are in our heads not the market. So the price of a bitcoin is what people are paying. It is never high or low, it is exactly right for that moment. One could "calculate" a price, but if people will not buy or sell at that price it's irreverent.
Great description, many people forget that while they are happy or complain about current price.

johnyj
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May 01, 2015, 07:13:04 AM
 #27

Because people unconsciously use fiat to measure value, they got this habit since they were born, there is almost no escape

ashour
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May 01, 2015, 06:51:41 PM
 #28

Because services that accept bitcoin actually dump the bitcoin with bitpay or coinbase. Services/shops need to accept bitcoin only with direct transactions and not dump them for $, the bitcoin economy circle has a big flaw and that are services that auto convert bitcoin to fiat.

futureofbitcoin
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May 01, 2015, 06:58:25 PM
 #29

Because people unconsciously use fiat to measure value, they got this habit since they were born, there is almost no escape
Not really. People use whatever is commonly accepted to measure value. It happens to be RMB in China, USD in US, JPY in Japan, which are fiat currencies. However, it's not because they're fiat that they're used to measure value. It's because they're commonly accepted everywhere that they're used to measure value.

If bitcoin can be used in every store in a city, then the residents there will probably switch to measuring things in bitcoin pretty soon. It's like how you can switch from USD to Euros if you move from US to France or something. There's nothing magical about "fiat".

manselr
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May 01, 2015, 07:05:51 PM
 #30

Why is Bitcoin tied to Fiat? Why is Bitcoin value moving like a stock? satoshi said the value will be derived by the limit of total coins. But we are seeing the opposite. Why dont we mathematically calculate the value of bitcoin according to the amount of bitcoin mined?

Like

Agreed Value * Bitcoins Mined = New Value

0.0010 * 1 = 0.0010
0.0010 * 2 = 0.0020
We are still on the early days and predicting the future and outcome of Bitcoin is not as simple as doing a couple math formulas and expect things to fall into place as time passes. The thing is, we don't know. What we do know is, we are on the right track, things are moving, look around beyond the damn price.
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May 01, 2015, 07:26:19 PM
 #31

Well, I believe we value Bitcoin by what it's worth in USD (for now, we all know it's worth much more)
How would you know how much your Bitcoins are worth if you have nothing to compare it with (fiat, gold, etc) ?

BADecker
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May 01, 2015, 07:57:30 PM
 #32

It has to do with income tax and other money laws. No matter what you want to do with Bitcoin, you have to convert it into fiat monetary value in order to act within the "law."

This means that there isn't very much incentive to use Bitcoin, because you have to keep records in fiat form anyway. In fact, using Bitcoin means that you have to keep an extra set of records. And as long as fiat is king, there is always the conversion factor so that you retain value as it would be if you had only used fiat.

So, what's the answer? The answer involves getting back into common law. Do what you are going to do businesswise. Stop paying income taxes. Stop contracting with government regarding their laws. Sell your products without income tax, and at least some reduced regulations.

What do you do when they come after you? Never does a man come after you when government comes after you. Always it is a government agency or THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA or THE STATE OF XXXXXX that comes after you. Stand as a man in court, not represented or representing yourself. Rather, stand present in court. This means that your accuser must be a man (or woman). If your accuser is the government, they lose, because the government cannot get on the stand under oath and affirmation and say anything. And they are required to do this so that you can cross examine them.

If you need to sue a government agency, always find the human being who acted in the government capacity. Sue the human being as well as the government agency. You can do it because a government agency can never do anything wrong to you. A government agency is simply paperwork. Paperwork can't do anything. It is only when a man or woman does what some paperwork says that paperwork even looks like it can do something. But, it is always the man or woman that does it. If a man or woman wrongs you, sue them.

Watch/listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFHUt1d_JHU.

Smiley

And if your advice doesn't work, which it won't, can I sue you?

You can try. But, if you are dumb enough to lose to them, you will lose to me, as well. Then, I will sue you for a false claim against me, and you will wind up paying me the amount in damages that you would have charged me, plus court costs, of course, and maybe additional damages for wasting my time. It will depend on how I feel that day.

Smiley
johnyj
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May 01, 2015, 10:30:36 PM
 #33

Because people unconsciously use fiat to measure value, they got this habit since they were born, there is almost no escape
Not really. People use whatever is commonly accepted to measure value. It happens to be RMB in China, USD in US, JPY in Japan, which are fiat currencies. However, it's not because they're fiat that they're used to measure value. It's because they're commonly accepted everywhere that they're used to measure value.

If bitcoin can be used in every store in a city, then the residents there will probably switch to measuring things in bitcoin pretty soon. It's like how you can switch from USD to Euros if you move from US to France or something. There's nothing magical about "fiat".

The unit of value is a psychological demand, people give trust to those medium that have the highest credibility and widest acceptance, which require a powerful entity's backing like fiat or long history of popularity like gold.

Bitcoin is too young, with no one backing, its value is largely decided by the speculative demand on exchanges, thus fluctuates wildly, and the security is difficult to handle. To make it worse, the sudden reward halving every 4 years will like some kind of financial emission which keeps the volatility forever high

Of course it will become an option if the fiat currency's value fluctuate wildly due to currency wars out there. But most likely it will become some kind of digital assets with high risk and high reward. Most of the people will still be the slaves of fiat money, but those a few who get hold of bitcoin can get out of the slave camp some day

sdmathis
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May 01, 2015, 10:40:56 PM
 #34

Because services that accept bitcoin actually dump the bitcoin with bitpay or coinbase. Services/shops need to accept bitcoin only with direct transactions and not dump them for $, the bitcoin economy circle has a big flaw and that are services that auto convert bitcoin to fiat.

Businesses are in it for the profit, not to support the Bitcoin economy. They lock in those profits by selling the Bitcoin that they receive.

The problem is that the Bitcoin community wants Bitcoin to be a currency and a long term investment. The two are not compatible. If it's a long term investment, we want a steady increase in the price of Bitcoin, but if we want it as a currency, we should be looking for price stability. If we want it as a long term investment, we need it to be tied to fiat ( or some commodity). If we want it as a currency, the goal is for it to stand on its own. The main reason Bitcoin is a slave to fiat is because more people want to use it as an investment rather than a currency.

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May 01, 2015, 10:48:35 PM
 #35

People those are not aware of bitcoins will definitely support fiat money. Generally people are afraid of scams on internet so its not easy to adopt bitcoins. And also there is lack of knowledge about the bitcoins for the people and they exactly don't know what bitcoin is all about.

 

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operrajunk74
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May 07, 2015, 11:46:24 PM
 #36

Bitcoin is not acceptable everywhere and Fiat is a traditional currency which can be used everywhere. But there would be a time where bitcoin would be acceptable across the globe. But still its a long way to go. Many countries doesnt know the concept of bitcoins so Fiat is still a king.
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May 08, 2015, 07:17:35 AM
 #37

Because services that accept bitcoin actually dump the bitcoin with bitpay or coinbase. Services/shops need to accept bitcoin only with direct transactions and not dump them for $, the bitcoin economy circle has a big flaw and that are services that auto convert bitcoin to fiat.

Businesses are in it for the profit, not to support the Bitcoin economy. They lock in those profits by selling the Bitcoin that they receive.

The problem is that the Bitcoin community wants Bitcoin to be a currency and a long term investment. The two are not compatible. If it's a long term investment, we want a steady increase in the price of Bitcoin, but if we want it as a currency, we should be looking for price stability. If we want it as a long term investment, we need it to be tied to fiat ( or some commodity). If we want it as a currency, the goal is for it to stand on its own. The main reason Bitcoin is a slave to fiat is because more people want to use it as an investment rather than a currency.

you could have a price stability while having a big price, i don't see a problem here really, they could instead of dumping using those bitcoin to purchase something else

bitcoin don't need fiat, but who is using bitcoin need fit apparently...that's the problem
Benjig
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May 08, 2015, 07:31:34 AM
 #38

Why is Bitcoin tied to Fiat? Why is Bitcoin value moving like a stock? satoshi said the value will be derived by the limit of total coins. But we are seeing the opposite. Why dont we mathematically calculate the value of bitcoin according to the amount of bitcoin mined?

Like

Agreed Value * Bitcoins Mined = New Value

0.0010 * 1 = 0.0010
0.0010 * 2 = 0.0020

Its a "slave" of fiat because fiat needs to have a real crisis , at that point is when bitcoin will start to surge separately in price and in every way from the fiat empire.

The daytraders or investors that sold are nothing compared to once the masses start buying it on big amounts.

Internet of things.
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May 08, 2015, 09:07:55 AM
 #39

the value is not stable, and bitcoin, as per now, is made to be exchanged into fiat currencies
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May 08, 2015, 10:06:41 AM
 #40

There are many countries that do not accept bitcoin as a mode of payment. And Generally People who are new to bitcoin may not trust it due to online scams So they would definitely prefer to go with Fiat money. And People would rather prefer to pay in cash or by credit card as they are used to it.
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