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Author Topic: Initial Coin Distribution Importance  (Read 1095 times)
Este Nuno
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May 02, 2015, 09:48:39 PM
 #21

How important is the fairness of the initial coin distribution for new coins?
Which of the coins now, in your opinion, are distributed fairly?

It is important if you want to make a successful project. Coins with bad distro don't go very high because smart people (the ones with the money) don't buy it. Litecoin wouldn't be where it is now if it wasn't fairly distributed.

How about NXT? Or Ripple? Or Darkcoin/DASH which was supposedly instamined? These coins still have very high market caps.

Quote
From all the coins i have been looking at i see these as failry distributed: Litecoin, Unobtanium, Vertcoin - that's it. Maybe doge, maybe digibyte, maybe megacoin, maybe clams (but these all go with a questionmark) Bitcoin wasn't fairly distributed (stealth, private premine, ninja launch)

Is there any proof that Bitcoin was actually premined? Didn't Satoshi insert the message "The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks" into the genesis block to prove that he didn't mine a ton of coins before it was released?

It might be accurate to say that Bitcoin was ninjamined because Satoshi and Hal Finney were the only ones who were mining it during its early days, however this was almost certainly unintentional and beyond Satoshi's control. Back then, very few people knew about cryptocurrencies and most of those who did realize the potential of decentralized blockchain-based currencies were the same people who Satoshi directly took inspiration from to create Bitcoin. Also, it was announced on a public mailing list from the very beginning.

Quote
Well, the distribution certainly affects market sentiment a lot a long time into the future.

I agree with this.

NXT's distribution seems to have turned out pretty well, so that's part of the reason it's still one of the top currencies.

I think distribution is pretty overrated in general, as long as it's not an extreme case there are many more important factors.

Satoshi didn't premine BTC, but he did set up a mining farm and mined the majority of BTC during the first while. Around a million BTC according to expert research.
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May 02, 2015, 10:35:54 PM
 #22

How important is the fairness of the initial coin distribution for new coins?
Which of the coins now, in your opinion, are distributed fairly?

It is important if you want to make a successful project. Coins with bad distro don't go very high because smart people (the ones with the money) don't buy it. Litecoin wouldn't be where it is now if it wasn't fairly distributed.

How about NXT? Or Ripple? Or Darkcoin/DASH which was supposedly instamined? These coins still have very high market caps.

Quote
From all the coins i have been looking at i see these as failry distributed: Litecoin, Unobtanium, Vertcoin - that's it. Maybe doge, maybe digibyte, maybe megacoin, maybe clams (but these all go with a questionmark) Bitcoin wasn't fairly distributed (stealth, private premine, ninja launch)

Is there any proof that Bitcoin was actually premined? Didn't Satoshi insert the message "The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks" into the genesis block to prove that he didn't mine a ton of coins before it was released?

It might be accurate to say that Bitcoin was ninjamined because Satoshi and Hal Finney were the only ones who were mining it during its early days, however this was almost certainly unintentional and beyond Satoshi's control. Back then, very few people knew about cryptocurrencies and most of those who did realize the potential of decentralized blockchain-based currencies were the same people who Satoshi directly took inspiration from to create Bitcoin. Also, it was announced on a public mailing list from the very beginning.

Quote
Well, the distribution certainly affects market sentiment a lot a long time into the future.

I agree with this.

What about ripple?
Man, ripple is not even a real cryptocurrency. The company still holds a large premine. I don't think ripple can ever claim to be fairly distributed. What ripple did right was drawing in gullible people and some bigger investors with their shilling. I don't think ripple will ever go mainsteam.

What about NXT? Well, it was open to the public to buy in the beginning and possibly one could call it fair but it isn't a wide distribution. NXT was fair but not good (wide) distributed. It did go places however. But in both cases ripple and nxt some technical innovation justified their marketcap. DRK same story. In cases of great first mover innovation large cap can be aquired without good distro but these coins always need to fear the copycat that is better distributed. NEM cuts into the demand for NXT, several anon coins cut into the demand for DRK and Stellar cuts into the demand for XRP. So these coins all gave room for competition thanks to their bad distro in the beginning.

About bitcoin: Back when it was created and had highest blockrewards people were mining it on their Laptop CPUs. The community in the early years was very small so the distribution is sub optimal and this fact to this day affects market sentiment (satoshi wallet for example will always be a topic and will prevent many people from putting any real money into BTC). Of course it was beyond satoshis control but he could have given away a large amount of these coins too but he didn't.
Today more people know about crypto and i think many of the alts of today have a much better distro than bitcoin had when it was their age.

If you know the coin is very good distributed you can catch a falling knife where this means higher risk on less good distributed coins.


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May 03, 2015, 12:27:25 AM
 #23

Not that important.  Like anything, a project's team is more important, millions in funding, and the idea itself.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Look at btc, Satoshi owns fat stacks but nobody cares.

Yup.  That didn't stop it going from nothing to $230 per coin in 6 - 7 years, did it?  It's not that bad actually.

and that's why the distribution doesn't matter that much.

Yes that's what I said.

I know man.,... I just been blazing mad weed tonight so my brain keep farting.. My bad!

Nah it's cool.  You can do it again if you want.  Let's make happy little nested posts and see how long we can make it last.

You mean keep brain farting? If so its gonna smell pretty bad in here in a bit. Maybe I should twist up a fatty and call it a night.. yeep.. fatty and a massage from the wife and Im off to bed.. later dude. I'll see ya around im sure.

Stay 420 strong my fellow pot brethren.



What?  You going?  I thought you're staying.  Tell your young beautiful hot wife to let you stay on for a bit.  I'm pretty sure she's ok with it.  Come on, let's make more nested posts, it'll be fun!


Sorry man.. the wife calls so i gotta answer
Can't blame you man.  She is hot!

You been stalking my wife dude?  Angry

Wuuut?  Nah man.  You intorduced me to her.  Don't you remember?

R


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May 03, 2015, 02:11:46 AM
 #24

NXT's distribution seems to have turned out pretty well, so that's part of the reason it's still one of the top currencies.

I think distribution is pretty overrated in general, as long as it's not an extreme case there are many more important factors.

Satoshi didn't premine BTC, but he did set up a mining farm and mined the majority of BTC during the first while. Around a million BTC according to expert research.

NXT's distribution is much better today than it was originally. The fact that it's price has been quite low for some time now probably helps as well. Here's an interesting infographic I found about the subject. It's pretty old so the numbers are probably even better today:



What about ripple?
Man, ripple is not even a real cryptocurrency. The company still holds a large premine. I don't think ripple can ever claim to be fairly distributed. What ripple did right was drawing in gullible people and some bigger investors with their shilling. I don't think ripple will ever go mainsteam.

What about NXT? Well, it was open to the public to buy in the beginning and possibly one could call it fair but it isn't a wide distribution. NXT was fair but not good (wide) distributed. It did go places however. But in both cases ripple and nxt some technical innovation justified their marketcap. DRK same story. In cases of great first mover innovation large cap can be aquired without good distro but these coins always need to fear the copycat that is better distributed. NEM cuts into the demand for NXT, several anon coins cut into the demand for DRK and Stellar cuts into the demand for XRP. So these coins all gave room for competition thanks to their bad distro in the beginning.

About bitcoin: Back when it was created and had highest blockrewards people were mining it on their Laptop CPUs. The community in the early years was very small so the distribution is sub optimal and this fact to this day affects market sentiment (satoshi wallet for example will always be a topic and will prevent many people from putting any real money into BTC). Of course it was beyond satoshis control but he could have given away a large amount of these coins too but he didn't.
Today more people know about crypto and i think many of the alts of today have a much better distro than bitcoin had when it was their age.

If you know the coin is very good distributed you can catch a falling knife where this means higher risk on less good distributed coins.



Agreed. Well said. Distribution does affect the chances of a coin surviving but a highly innovative coin should be able to overcome it except in the most serious cases.
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May 03, 2015, 03:32:39 AM
Last edit: May 03, 2015, 03:46:41 AM by tokeweed
 #25

Not that important.  Like anything, a project's team is more important, millions in funding, and the idea itself.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Look at btc, Satoshi owns fat stacks but nobody cares.

Yup.  That didn't stop it going from nothing to $230 per coin in 6 - 7 years, did it?  It's not that bad actually.

and that's why the distribution doesn't matter that much.

Yes that's what I said.

I know man.,... I just been blazing mad weed tonight so my brain keep farting.. My bad!

Nah it's cool.  You can do it again if you want.  Let's make happy little nested posts and see how long we can make it last.

You mean keep brain farting? If so its gonna smell pretty bad in here in a bit. Maybe I should twist up a fatty and call it a night.. yeep.. fatty and a massage from the wife and Im off to bed.. later dude. I'll see ya around im sure.

Stay 420 strong my fellow pot brethren.



What?  You going?  I thought you're staying.  Tell your young beautiful hot wife to let you stay on for a bit.  I'm pretty sure she's ok with it.  Come on, let's make more nested posts, it'll be fun!


Sorry man.. the wife calls so i gotta answer
Can't blame you man.  She is hot!

You been stalking my wife dude?  Angry

Wuuut?  Nah man.  You intorduced me to her.  Don't you remember?

Bob, I think I may have over-simplified what I was trying to say about initial coin distribution.  Here's the thing.  Imo for a 2.0 project like Ripple, they might get away with the fact that they have one of the worst distributions out there.  Here's why...  

  * Ripple Labs is a for profit company.  So in effect it is in their interest for XRP to go up.

  * We know their identities (devs, execs, etc...), and know that they could get imprisoned for fraud if they do
     any shenanigans.

In Bitcoin's case, it must be very important.  And the fact that Satoshi holds 1m BTC may be a problem.  Why...

  * We do not know who he really is and what he intends to do with his coins. He cannot be held liable for
      anything because he's anonymous.

So I think knowing a person's identity, his intentions and that he can be held liable for fraud has to be given more importance than distribution.  Not saying that distribution isn't important at all.  Because if one dev wants to be anonymous, then distribution must be fair as much as possible to encourage trust in the system.
    

Edit:  I started a thread about why Satoshi didn't "burn" his coins if he doesn't have any intention in gaining access on them in the future https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1045997.0

Some inputs with be nice.

R


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LLBIT|
4,000+ GAMES
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May 03, 2015, 10:00:52 AM
 #26

Bob, I think I may have over-simplified what I was trying to say about initial coin distribution.  Here's the thing.  Imo for a 2.0 project like Ripple, they might get away with the fact that they have one of the worst distributions out there.  Here's why...  

  * Ripple Labs is a for profit company.  So in effect it is in their interest for XRP to go up.

  * We know their identities (devs, execs, etc...), and know that they could get imprisoned for fraud if they do
     any shenanigans.


In Bitcoin's case, it must be very important.  And the fact that Satoshi holds 1m BTC may be a problem.  Why...

  * We do not know who he really is and what he intends to do with his coins. He cannot be held liable for
      anything because he's anonymous.

So I think knowing a person's identity, his intentions and that he can be held liable for fraud has to be given more importance than distribution.  Not saying that distribution isn't important at all.  Because if one dev wants to be anonymous, then distribution must be fair as much as possible to encourage trust in the system.
    

Edit:  I started a thread about why Satoshi didn't "burn" his coins if he doesn't have any intention in gaining access on them in the future https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1045997.0

Some inputs with be nice.

Even if the guys at Ripple Labs decide not to do any obvious shenanigans, the simple fact that they hold so much of the total value (and thus power) in a decentralized distributed network might not sit too well with some people.

Dear GOD/GODS and/or anyone else who can HELP ME (e.g. MEMBERS OF SUPER-INTELLIGENT ALIEN CIVILIZATIONS): The next time I wake up, please change my physical form to that of FINN MCMILLAN of SOUTH NEW BRIGHTON at 8 YEARS OLD and keep it that way FOREVER. I am so sick of this chubby Asian man body! Thank you! - CHAUL JHIN KIM (a.k.a. A DESPERATE SOUL) P.S. If anyone is reading this then please pray for me! [ www.chauljhin.com ]
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May 03, 2015, 10:02:46 AM
 #27

Bob, I think I may have over-simplified what I was trying to say about initial coin distribution.  Here's the thing.  Imo for a 2.0 project like Ripple, they might get away with the fact that they have one of the worst distributions out there.  Here's why...  

  * Ripple Labs is a for profit company.  So in effect it is in their interest for XRP to go up.

  * We know their identities (devs, execs, etc...), and know that they could get imprisoned for fraud if they do
     any shenanigans.


In Bitcoin's case, it must be very important.  And the fact that Satoshi holds 1m BTC may be a problem.  Why...

  * We do not know who he really is and what he intends to do with his coins. He cannot be held liable for
      anything because he's anonymous.

So I think knowing a person's identity, his intentions and that he can be held liable for fraud has to be given more importance than distribution.  Not saying that distribution isn't important at all.  Because if one dev wants to be anonymous, then distribution must be fair as much as possible to encourage trust in the system.
    

Edit:  I started a thread about why Satoshi didn't "burn" his coins if he doesn't have any intention in gaining access on them in the future https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1045997.0

Some inputs with be nice.

Even if the guys at Ripple Labs decide not to do any obvious shenanigans, the simple fact that they hold so much of the total value (and thus power) in a decentralized distributed network might not sit too well with some people.

That is true.

R


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LLBIT|
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May 03, 2015, 07:18:13 PM
 #28

I agree that technology and community are the most important components for the success of a coin.

But if the development team premines more than 1% or perhaps 2% for themselves, I would consider it as unfair. Cryptocurrencies are potentially worldwide payment systems, and in case of success that would mean the team having a huge revenue and an unfair advantage 1) to other coin users, 2) to other software developers.

Peercoin and Nxt are examples for relatively fair distribution mechanisms (I prefer Peercoin's a little bit more as its distribution stage reaches potentially more people).

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