About Internet circumvention and censorship

[myrkul]

I am not sure if you have ever experienced the Chinese firewall. If you just learn it from media, obviously you won't really know how it works.

The argument is, promoting anti-firewall here will alert the firewall and the wall will come A LOT EARLIER. The wall will (either automatically or manually) filter any sites with anti-firewall keywords.

In other words, even this discussion might trigger it. You're screwed whatever you do.

As long as we use English, the risk is minimal.

Then Let him post in the Chinese forum, but use English.

Problem solved?

[3kP0mR]

Well that's a good idea.

[jl2012]

I am not sure if you have ever experienced the Chinese firewall. If you just learn it from media, obviously you won't really know how it works.

The argument is, promoting anti-firewall here will alert the firewall and the wall will come A LOT EARLIER. The wall will (either automatically or manually) filter any sites with anti-firewall keywords.

In other words, even this discussion might trigger it. You're screwed whatever you do.

As long as we use English, the risk is minimal.

Then Let him post in the Chinese forum, but use English.

Problem solved?

Not solved, because you are just promoting it to a wrong target group:99.99% of Chinese bitcoin users with good English ability know Internet circumvention. The potential harm outweighs the benefit.

Again, I hate the wall and I believe every Chinese bitcoin users hate it. I also hate self-censorship but we shouldn't take risks without a good reason. Just think again why Satoshi wanted to keep distance with Wikileaks.

[jl2012]

Well that's a good idea.

You are just promoting it to a wrong target group:99.99% of Chinese bitcoin users with good English ability know Internet circumvention.

If your programme is not related to bitcoin, "off-topic" is the right place for you. Although your programme is mainly for people in Mainland China, the group is called "中文" (Chinese Language), not "中國" (China). Many people around the world speak Chinese, and the group is not reserved to people in Mainland China.

[myrkul]

Not solved, because you are just promoting it to a wrong target group:99.99% of Chinese bitcoin users with good English ability know Internet circumvention. The potential harm outweighs the benefit.

OK, and would you say that's a large portion of current Chinese (中國) Bitcoin users, or a small percentage?

[jl2012]

Not solved, because you are just promoting it to a wrong target group:99.99% of Chinese bitcoin users with good English ability know Internet circumvention. The potential harm outweighs the benefit.

OK, and would you say that's a large portion of current Chinese (中國) Bitcoin users, or a small percentage?

I don't know, and that is irrelevant to our discussion. If you post in English, your target population is restricted to those who read English. In China, only well-educated people use English and they should know every method to fight with the wall.

[HorseRider]

How could they learn that, when you didn't even let me post information about it?

There are tons of websites and blogs you can post, totally without restriction. I subscribe 2  anti g f w blogs in my google reader. both blogs has tens of thousands readers. I tell friends how to across the wall in my daily life. I install software for them. I build a private SSH proxy server for lots of friends.

you can make an independent blog. You can raise bitcoin for you project. let other people deliver the software at other place. you're not the only one who doing the teaching and promoting anti g f w job.

You're not alone, and you cannot win the war by fighting alone and do everything at once. You should learn to cooperate with your alliance. we promote a free currency, and you develop the software. the currency support you, and you should protect the promotion of this currency.

in the battle, when two man shot another single enemy, they will chose to stand at different place, which will make the enemy harder to chose which one to take down first. If the two man stands in one place, it will be much easier for the enemy to hunt down both of them.

you don't have to occupy the Tiananmen Square always while you're fighting for the democracy, which might leads thousands of people dying.
You don't have to post the informaiton every where while you're trying to fight the internet censorship, which might leads 95% of the Chinese internet user cannot reach this forum.

If this forum is firewalled, many of those 5% users who know about the  anti g f w skills will hate the trouble and won't come here, too. It's damaging the growth of bitcoin in China.

Important:

I don't think post that software link information can reduce any trouble. The g f w's spider is really powerful, I have experienced it with my own blog. You have to know that's about 3 years ago. it's stronger today.

Just raise money for your project, in English, stay low from the  g f w spider on this forum.

[myrkul]

Not solved, because you are just promoting it to a wrong target group:99.99% of Chinese bitcoin users with good English ability know Internet circumvention. The potential harm outweighs the benefit.

OK, and would you say that's a large portion of current Chinese (中國) Bitcoin users, or a small percentage?

I don't know, and that is irrelevant to our discussion. If you post in English, your target population is restricted to those who read English. In China, only well-educated people use English and they should know every method to fight with the wall.

Excellent point.

So we have a bit of an impasse, here. On one hand, we know it's inevitable that eventually, this site will no longer be available to the general public in China. On the other, we would like to set that date as far as possible. I have never been to China myself, but I understand from people who have that it is trivial, and the knowledge of how is widespread, to bypass the wall. Certainly, you say, at least as widespread as that of the English language.

I must confess ignorance of exactly what the tool does. I assume it is something to make the use of Bitcoin through the wall a bit easier?

Would it not be best, then, to post the actual thread in the Products section, in English, and then link to it using something like this, in one's signature: Bitcoiner在中国呢？阅读本！ (apologies if my translation is poor, I verified it by sending it back through the other way, but Google Translate is not perfect)

[John (John K.)]

Not solved, because you are just promoting it to a wrong target group:99.99% of Chinese bitcoin users with good English ability know Internet circumvention. The potential harm outweighs the benefit.

OK, and would you say that's a large portion of current Chinese (中國) Bitcoin users, or a small percentage?

I don't know, and that is irrelevant to our discussion. If you post in English, your target population is restricted to those who read English. In China, only well-educated people use English and they should know every method to fight with the wall.

Excellent point.

So we have a bit of an impasse, here. On one hand, we know it's inevitable that eventually, this site will no longer be available to the general public in China. On the other, we would like to set that date as far as possible. I have never been to China myself, but I understand from people who have that it is trivial, and the knowledge of how is widespread, to bypass the wall. Certainly, you say, at least as widespread as that of the English language.

I must confess ignorance of exactly what the tool does. I assume it is something to make the use of Bitcoin through the wall a bit easier?

Would it not be best, then, to post the actual thread in the Products section, in English, and then link to it using something like this, in one's signature: Bitcoiner在中国呢？阅读本！ (apologies if my translation is poor, I verified it by sending it back through the other way, but Google Translate is not perfect)

'Bitcoiner在中国呢？阅读本!' means :'(What about) Bitcoiners in China? (roughly) Reading books! . The second sentence is actually mangled by Google Translate, and does not constitute a sentence nor contain any meaning. The first sentence is literally a 'hanging sentence' if it were in English. Google translate fails badly for short sentences as it does not understand the context. 

The tool is a proxy client that encrypts all communication to TOR-like levels before being relayed to the proxy servers. It's used to jump across the Great Firew@ll and enable the China-based users browse censored sites. (and believe me, that list is long.)

3kP0mR, the better way would be setting up a site that teaches how to pass the censors, and linking to it with a vague hint at the forums. Giving the instructions directly here would lead to the forums being banned, and possibly hasten the complete blanket ban of any Bitcoin related sites in China. I'm still not too sure to approach this issue though - maybe more feedback from China based users like HorseRider would help in this case.

[myrkul]

'Bitcoiner在中国呢？阅读本!' means :'(What about) Bitcoiners in China? (roughly) Reading books! . The second sentence is actually mangled by Google Translate, and does not constitute a sentence nor contain any meaning. The first sentence is literally a 'hanging sentence' if it were in English. Google translate fails badly for short sentences as it does not understand the context. 

/facepalm. It was supposed to be "Bitcoiner in China? Read this!" Gods and monsters, machine translation sucks.

3kP0mR, the better way would be setting up a site that teaches how to pass the censors, and linking to it with a vague hint at the forums. Giving the instructions directly here would lead to the forums being banned, and possibly hasten the complete blanket ban of any Bitcoin related sites in China. I'm still not too sure to approach this issue though - maybe more feedback from China based users like HorseRider would help in this case.

That's an even better idea. It will delay the inevitable, at least.

[Gabi]

I'm for restoring the thread.

Also, is this a problem if i leave this here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_incident Bye.

[3kP0mR]

How could they learn that, when you didn't even let me post information about it?

There are tons of websites and blogs you can post, totally without restriction. I subscribe 2  anti g f w blogs in my google reader. both blogs has tens of thousands readers. I tell friends how to across the wall in my daily life. I install software for them. I build a private SSH proxy server for lots of friends.

Have you forgotten they are blocked and no Chinese could read them unless they have already know how to use Internet Circumvention tool? Ask me to promote on "tons of those blogs and forums" are absurd, don't you think?