Gavin is an Agent

[QuestionAuthority]

I find it so fascinating to see what people think "agents" do.

Agents sell insurance.



Special Investigators commit crimes for the CIA and FBI.

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[BitcoinEXpress]

I find it so fascinating to see what people think "agents" do.

My fav is Special Agent Oso!

Kinda looks like Gavin 

~BCX~

[YarkoL]

Again, one must distinguish what are one's rights from what one thinks that ought to be one's rights.  The former are defined by laws and courts.  For the latter, different people will have different opinions.  Without a government, those opinions are irrelevant: in a dispute, the side with more guns, more thugs, or better skills will prevail.  

In particular, without laws and courts there is no concept of "property".  Property is distinct from possession; it is the right to have possession.  If a thief takes your car, he will have possession, but the car is still your property; and the government is supposed to use its power (with force, if needed) to take the car from the thief, and give possession back to you.   On the other hand, if you default on payments and the contract says that property of the car returns to the seller, the government is bound to support him in taking the car from you.  Ditto if you have possession of money that the government thinks it is their property (i.e., unpaid taxes).

So you are saying that property is a social construct ?

I think the notion of property is intrinsically linked with privacy, and is
a natural consequence of the fact that we are endowed with thoughts, aims and aspirations
that are not immediately visible to others. These constitute the primal basis
of ownership, and tangible things that one acquires to make her life better
are natural extension of them, and so they too are one's private property.
This concept of natural ownership precedes governments.

Whatever happens to Bitcoin, its greatest value is that it has demonstrated
that you can have transferable and divisible digital property without resort
to central authority that sanctions its use. This is like a first shot in a revolution.

From now on, we have a realistic prospect of developing "smart" contracts
- like payment of a car for example -.that are enforced by algorithms and not by
"the side with more guns, more thugs", i.e. the government.
 

[hdbuck]

Yes Gavin is an agent and wants to destroy Bitcoin

No Doubt this explains why he has worked for five years tirelessly to make Bitcoin what it is today.

Because he wants to destroy it.



~BCX~

Its not about destruction, but more about highjacking it for USG's purposes.

[BitcoinEXpress]

Yes Gavin is an agent and wants to destroy Bitcoin

No Doubt this explains why he has worked for five years tirelessly to make Bitcoin what it is today.

Because he wants to destroy it.



~BCX~

Its not about destruction, but more about highjacking it for USG's purposes.

I don't have a problem with that.

If Bitcoin could benefit the US Gov, then that's a good thing for Bitcoin.


~BCX~

[bitnanigans]

Haha. Welcome to bitcoin, a world of intrigue and drama.

[BitcoiNaked]

I believe he's an agent too, people think just because bitcoin is decentralized, all those involved must be legit. He is a kind person yes.

[tvbcof]

Yes Gavin is an agent and wants to destroy Bitcoin

No Doubt this explains why he has worked for five years tirelessly to make Bitcoin what it is today.

Because he wants to destroy it.

~BCX~

Its not about destruction, but more about highjacking it for USG's purposes.

I don't have a problem with that.

If Bitcoin could benefit the US Gov, then that's a good thing for Bitcoin.

~BCX~

Hopefully you will get your wish.  I'm looking forward to a USG Federal level sidechain so I can use it to pay my taxes and so on.  Sidechains are a nearly perfect proxy for actual BTC, so it is completely accurate to say that using a sidechain is the same as using Bitcoin.

Also looking forward to a state-level on, county level one, and community level one.  I need to pay the state and the country independent taxes and am happy to do so as they both provide services that I appreciate and the citizens benefit from.

There would be, of course, very few legitimate reasons for these sidechains to not be quite transparent.  I've actually never complained a lot about taxes in the first place, but would be an even more satisfied tax-payer if I could see how the money I cough up is being used.

[QuestionAuthority]

Yes Gavin is an agent and wants to destroy Bitcoin

No Doubt this explains why he has worked for five years tirelessly to make Bitcoin what it is today.

Because he wants to destroy it.

~BCX~

Its not about destruction, but more about highjacking it for USG's purposes.

I don't have a problem with that.

If Bitcoin could benefit the US Gov, then that's a good thing for Bitcoin.

~BCX~

Hopefully you will get your wish.  I'm looking forward to a USG Federal level sidechain so I can use it to pay my taxes and so on.  Sidechains are a nearly perfect proxy for actual BTC, so it is completely accurate to say that using a sidechain is the same as using Bitcoin.

Also looking forward to a state-level on, county level one, and community level one.  I need to pay the state and the country independent taxes and am happy to do so as they both provide services that I appreciate and the citizens benefit from.

There would be, of course, very few legitimate reasons for these sidechains to not be quite transparent.  I've actually never complained a lot about taxes in the first place, but would be an even more satisfied tax-payer if I could see how the money I cough up is being used.

Murricans should be able to see every dollar the government spends right now without using Bitcoin (except the CIA because their budget is classified). 

[JorgeStolfi]

So you are saying that property is a social construct ?  I think the notion of property is intrinsically linked with privacy [ ... ] This concept of natural ownership precedes governments.

Neither privacy nor property are "natural".  Have a look at any of the hunter-gatherer people who still exist out there.  Nothing is more alien to their culture than "privacy", not even of thir bodies.  If they are nomadic, their material possessions are so scant that "property rights", even if they are present, play an insignificant role in their economy, and are restricted to the objects that they use and cannot be used by others at the same time.  Most of those objects need to be remade periodically.  The more settled tribes may have single family huts (without fences, walls, or locks), but many have instead big multi-family homes, and communal buildings where people spend most of their time indoors.

Most importantly, their "property rights" are not really rights, to the extent that there is no third party to enforce them.  Suppose that a bully takes the bracelet or bow from a weaker tribesman, "because I am strong and you are a wimp".  The victim will be unhappy, but so what?  If the rest of the tribe forces the bully to return the object, there you have governmet and laws, even if unformalized and unwritten.  If the others don't care, what would be the point of saying that the victim has "property rights" over the object?

a natural consequence of the fact that we are endowed with thoughts, aims and aspirations
that are not immediately visible to others.

Those tribes are proof that one thing does not lead to the other.

Whatever happens to Bitcoin, its greatest value is that it has demonstrated
that you can have transferable and divisible digital property without resort
to central authority that sanctions its use.

Bitcoin transfers "possession", not "property". 

From now on, we have a realistic prospect of developing "smart" contracts
- like payment of a car for example -.that are enforced by algorithms and not by
"the side with more guns, more thugs", i.e. the government.
 

I would really like to see a smart contract work without backing of police, laws, and courts.  (Note that contracts are like fire extinguishers: they are useful only when things fail to happen the way they were supposed to happen.)

[tvbcof]

Hopefully you will get your wish.  I'm looking forward to a USG Federal level sidechain so I can use it to pay my taxes and so on.  Sidechains are a nearly perfect proxy for actual BTC, so it is completely accurate to say that using a sidechain is the same as using Bitcoin.

Also looking forward to a state-level on, county level one, and community level one.  I need to pay the state and the country independent taxes and am happy to do so as they both provide services that I appreciate and the citizens benefit from.

There would be, of course, very few legitimate reasons for these sidechains to not be quite transparent.  I've actually never complained a lot about taxes in the first place, but would be an even more satisfied tax-payer if I could see how the money I cough up is being used.

Murricans should be able to see every dollar the government spends right now without using Bitcoin (except the CIA because their budget is classified). 

If it were available on a public ledger in real-time, it is likely that many people would find it practical to get this (theoretically) available information and reduce and publish it.  Bitcoin has demonstrated this.

It just dawned on me now that it actually would be pretty nice if people had to publicly register their own data if they wished to receive payments from the government so tax-payers could analyse the 'first hop' out of government control in tracking how our funds are being spent.

[RodeoX]

OMG, I just realized how serious this is. Did you guys know that Agent Gavin has a copy OF EVERY SINGLE BITCOIN Tx you have ever made! 

[QuestionAuthority]

Hopefully you will get your wish.  I'm looking forward to a USG Federal level sidechain so I can use it to pay my taxes and so on.  Sidechains are a nearly perfect proxy for actual BTC, so it is completely accurate to say that using a sidechain is the same as using Bitcoin.

Also looking forward to a state-level on, county level one, and community level one.  I need to pay the state and the country independent taxes and am happy to do so as they both provide services that I appreciate and the citizens benefit from.

There would be, of course, very few legitimate reasons for these sidechains to not be quite transparent.  I've actually never complained a lot about taxes in the first place, but would be an even more satisfied tax-payer if I could see how the money I cough up is being used.

Murricans should be able to see every dollar the government spends right now without using Bitcoin (except the CIA because their budget is classified). 

If it were available on a public ledger in real-time, it is likely that many people would find it practical to get this (theoretically) available information and reduce and publish it.  Bitcoin has demonstrated this.

It just dawned on me now that it actually would be pretty nice if people had to publicly register their own data if they wished to receive payments from the government so tax-payers could analyse the 'first hop' out of government control in tracking how our funds are being spent.

That sounds nice in theory but I doubt the average current Bitcoin user (more tech savvy than most) could effectively parse the blockchain to find their own transactions. Tracking the distribution of funds from central receiving to final expenditure would be a nightmarish task for Joe Blow. 

[tvbcof]

Murricans should be able to see every dollar the government spends right now without using Bitcoin (except the CIA because their budget is classified). 

If it were available on a public ledger in real-time, it is likely that many people would find it practical to get this (theoretically) available information and reduce and publish it.  Bitcoin has demonstrated this.

It just dawned on me now that it actually would be pretty nice if people had to publicly register their own data if they wished to receive payments from the government so tax-payers could analyse the 'first hop' out of government control in tracking how our funds are being spent.

That sounds nice in theory but I doubt the average current Bitcoin user (more tech savvy than most) could effectively parse the blockchain to find their own transactions. Tracking the distribution of funds from central receiving to final expenditure would be a nightmarish task for Joe Blow. 

Note that in Bitcoin-land there are a multitude of tools made publically available by people who had a modicum of skill.  They allow all manners of pretty general graphics, and simple queries for users which produce legible processed results.

I see no reason why a shit-load of such things would not be created to analyze [corp/]gov monetary flows if the data were as available as it is in the blockchain based Bitcoin system.

[QuestionAuthority]

Murricans should be able to see every dollar the government spends right now without using Bitcoin (except the CIA because their budget is classified). 

If it were available on a public ledger in real-time, it is likely that many people would find it practical to get this (theoretically) available information and reduce and publish it.  Bitcoin has demonstrated this.

It just dawned on me now that it actually would be pretty nice if people had to publicly register their own data if they wished to receive payments from the government so tax-payers could analyse the 'first hop' out of government control in tracking how our funds are being spent.

That sounds nice in theory but I doubt the average current Bitcoin user (more tech savvy than most) could effectively parse the blockchain to find their own transactions. Tracking the distribution of funds from central receiving to final expenditure would be a nightmarish task for Joe Blow. 

Note that in Bitcoin-land there are a multitude of tools made publically available by people who had a modicum of skill.  They allow all manners of pretty general graphics, and simple queries for users which produce legible processed results.

I see no reason why a shit-load of such things would not be created to analyze [corp/]gov monetary flows if the data were as available as it is in the blockchain based Bitcoin system.

That simply transfers trust in the ability of the little low paid government functionaries that currently report to trust in the toolmakers. I suppose it's better because multiple people could review the proper operation of the tool. Then again, there are already private individuals/whistleblowers that review the government budgets. I see it as a wash.

[YarkoL]

Most importantly, their "property rights" are not really rights, to the extent that there is no third party to enforce them.  Suppose that a bully takes the bracelet or bow from a weaker tribesman, "because I am strong and you are a wimp".  The victim will be unhappy, but so what?  If the rest of the tribe forces the bully to return the object, there you have governmet and laws, even if unformalized and unwritten.  If the others don't care, what would be the point of saying that the victim has "property rights" over the object?

Where I live there are still nomadic people (the Sámi) and yes they do have personal things
like clothes and tools and flocks of reindeer as they have had for
thousand years. The major thing that distinguishes them is their
wandering pastoral lifestyle instead of agricultural-based one, that ties one to
the soil.

If the tribesmen come to the defense of someone who has been robbed
of his belongings, that does not mean some kind of primitive police
or government but simply the collective acknowledgement of intrinsic
right to primitive property.

My view is simply that notion of property predates legal formulations
upheld by government, whereas  you appeared to claim that it is created by them
and would not exist without them. And it follows from my premise that there are other
means to secure them than govermental or even social control.

I would really like to see a smart contract work without backing of police, laws, and courts.  (Note that contracts are like fire extinguishers: they are useful only when things fail to happen the way they were supposed to happen.)

Crowdfunding is an example that comes to mind - you transfer an amount
of value to a recipient, and the contract stipulates that if you don't get something
by some date, you'll get your amount back just as everyone else who contributed.
Such a contract is easily implemented algorithmically with just a few lines of code,
and everyone can instantly see that it works.

So which one are we likely to trust - impartial mathematics or some guy with a rubber stamp?

[Fullbuster]

OMG, I just realized how serious this is. Did you guys know that Agent Gavin has a copy OF EVERY SINGLE BITCOIN Tx you have ever made! 

shit, i felt terrible, Gavin is an agent!

[RodeoX]

OMG, I just realized how serious this is. Did you guys know that Agent Gavin has a copy OF EVERY SINGLE BITCOIN Tx you have ever made! 

shit, i felt terrible, Gavin is an agent!

Oh crap, it's worse than I thought. I ALSO HAVE A COPY ON MY COMPUTER!!!! WTF???
I must be some kind of "Manchurian candidate".

[Gleb Gamow]

OMG, I just realized how serious this is. Did you guys know that Agent Gavin has a copy OF EVERY SINGLE BITCOIN Tx you have ever made!  

shit, i felt terrible, Gavin is an agent!

Oh crap, it's worse than I thought. I ALSO HAVE A COPY ON MY COMPUTER!!!! WTF???
I must be some kind of "Manchurian candidate".

It's wurst than that! I'm your sausage-running, mate.

[Fullbuster]

OMG, I just realized how serious this is. Did you guys know that Agent Gavin has a copy OF EVERY SINGLE BITCOIN Tx you have ever made!  

shit, i felt terrible, Gavin is an agent!

Oh crap, it's worse than I thought. I ALSO HAVE A COPY ON MY COMPUTER!!!! WTF???
I must be some kind of "Manchurian candidate".

It's wurst than that! I'm your sausage-running, mate.

how the heck you got another copy? decipher it, it might contain s0me secret message from Gavin the Agent