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Author Topic: **IMPORTANT**URGENT** Support needed to defend the stance of bitcoin in India  (Read 8266 times)
dashingriddler (OP)
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May 07, 2015, 09:42:50 PM
 #81

RBI never said "not to indulge" !!!
It only asked you to be cautious and told you that cryptocurrencies are unregulated and thus risky.

Anyways I have edited the wikipedia entry.
right - and that risk meant both financial and legal risks. financial one meant the hacking or lost wallet or volatility etc

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ryandanielt
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May 07, 2015, 09:55:13 PM
 #82

I guess you missed the Wikipedia lol

In June 2013, the Reserve Bank of India (RBI) issued a notice acknowledging that virtual currencies posed legal, regulatory and operational challenges. In August 2013, a spokesperson wrote in an email that bitcoin was under observation.

On 24 December 2013, the Reserve Bank of India issued an advisory to the Indian public not to indulge in buying or selling of virtual currencies, including bitcoin. Following the announcement Bitcoin operators in the country began suspending operations.

The first raid in India was undertaken a couple of days later in Ahmedabad by the Enforcement Directorate (ED) on the office of the website, buysellbit.co.in, that provided a platform to trade in this virtual currency. The preliminary investigations found it to be in violation of the Foreign Exchange Management Act (FEMA).

On 28 December 2013, the Deputy Governor of the RBI, K. C. Chakrabarty, made a statement that RBI had no plans to regulate Bitcoins.

The consolidated legal position in the month of August 2014 is that the legality of bitcoin is in doubt in India. The Reserve Bank of India has cautioned users of virtual currencies of various legal risks. Indian law enforcement agency Enforcement Directorate also searched the office and website of a bitcoin entrepreneur to analyse any possible legal violation. ED believes that Bitcoins money can be used for hawala transactions and funding terror operations.

Perhaps you neglected to check the bitcoin website and wiki.

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country#India

Wikipedia did not even count as a reference when i was doing a project in my masters haha. So did not bother to show it.

Everything else you mentioned is true and I have shown these articles. The links to these are there in my OP. But what is your point?

Just so you know - apart from that Dec 24th advisory, everything else was discarded. The way i could convince about being unregulated is because there is no notice saying it is getting regulated. Not because chakrbarthy said he has no plans of regulation.
These guys want in form of notice by govt or regulatory bodies. Quotes and comments on quotes or articles on quotes did not count. Even the regulatory landscape
in other countries did not count.


Again I think you are Mis-understanding the point as you have with everything anyone else on here has put. Maybe you need to take the time to actually READ something before posting and give some good thought!! ANYTHING everyone else has stated you have twisted or "Mis-Understood".


POINT BEING: According to MANY articles not just what was declared on the wiki, the INDIAN Government is already well informed about Bitcoin and its purpose MEANING they would never need to approach a small bitcoin company about anything. They already have there facts together when it comes to bitcoin meaning if they needed to proceed with charges they sure as hell do NOT need any researched material. So any "Authority" figure you are referring to obviously is not of any importance so why you had to make a big deal about it and argue with people on here about it is beyond me.


Next time if some supposed "Authority" comes to you with anything how about you turn the tables on them and ask them why they "Apparently" know nothing about bitcoin!


Oh and PS: There's no need for any more opinions, my point has always been that this post is just for attention and the more you post it just goes to show I was right and anyone that is truly part of the community would acknowledge that. It doesn't take a rocket science to figure out what Bitcoin is, hell the 68 Year old Woman at the licensing department down here knows what it is and she don't even know much about computers she said when I went to have my Bitcoin business licensed.


Crypto Ninja! Want my signature? Perhaps you want my avatar? Let me know Smiley
dashingriddler (OP)
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May 08, 2015, 04:47:50 AM
Last edit: May 08, 2015, 06:20:48 AM by dashingriddler
 #83

I guess you missed the Wikipedia lol

In June 2013, the Reserve Bank of India (RBI) issued a notice acknowledging that virtual currencies posed legal, regulatory and operational challenges. In August 2013, a spokesperson wrote in an email that bitcoin was under observation.

On 24 December 2013, the Reserve Bank of India issued an advisory to the Indian public not to indulge in buying or selling of virtual currencies, including bitcoin. Following the announcement Bitcoin operators in the country began suspending operations.

The first raid in India was undertaken a couple of days later in Ahmedabad by the Enforcement Directorate (ED) on the office of the website, buysellbit.co.in, that provided a platform to trade in this virtual currency. The preliminary investigations found it to be in violation of the Foreign Exchange Management Act (FEMA).

On 28 December 2013, the Deputy Governor of the RBI, K. C. Chakrabarty, made a statement that RBI had no plans to regulate Bitcoins.

The consolidated legal position in the month of August 2014 is that the legality of bitcoin is in doubt in India. The Reserve Bank of India has cautioned users of virtual currencies of various legal risks. Indian law enforcement agency Enforcement Directorate also searched the office and website of a bitcoin entrepreneur to analyse any possible legal violation. ED believes that Bitcoins money can be used for hawala transactions and funding terror operations.

Perhaps you neglected to check the bitcoin website and wiki.

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country#India

Wikipedia did not even count as a reference when i was doing a project in my masters haha. So did not bother to show it.

Everything else you mentioned is true and I have shown these articles. The links to these are there in my OP. But what is your point?

Just so you know - apart from that Dec 24th advisory, everything else was discarded. The way i could convince about being unregulated is because there is no notice saying it is getting regulated. Not because chakrbarthy said he has no plans of regulation.
These guys want in form of notice by govt or regulatory bodies. Quotes and comments on quotes or articles on quotes did not count. Even the regulatory landscape
in other countries did not count.


Again I think you are Mis-understanding the point as you have with everything anyone else on here has put. Maybe you need to take the time to actually READ something before posting and give some good thought!! ANYTHING everyone else has stated you have twisted or "Mis-Understood".


POINT BEING: According to MANY articles not just what was declared on the wiki, the INDIAN Government is already well informed about Bitcoin and its purpose MEANING they would never need to approach a small bitcoin company about anything. They already have there facts together when it comes to bitcoin meaning if they needed to proceed with charges they sure as hell do NOT need any researched material. So any "Authority" figure you are referring to obviously is not of any importance so why you had to make a big deal about it and argue with people on here about it is beyond me.


Next time if some supposed "Authority" comes to you with anything how about you turn the tables on them and ask them why they "Apparently" know nothing about bitcoin!


Oh and PS: There's no need for any more opinions, my point has always been that this post is just for attention and the more you post it just goes to show I was right and anyone that is truly part of the community would acknowledge that. It doesn't take a rocket science to figure out what Bitcoin is, hell the 68 Year old Woman at the licensing department down here knows what it is and she don't even know much about computers she said when I went to have my Bitcoin business licensed.


That just shows you have no knowledge about authorities in India and how the systems works here.

If there is a crime, the authorities first arrest the person who committed it. then the next set of people who helped indirectly will get interogated and convicted if found guilty. then the next circles around them who are in any way related to these people will get questioned.

in india the first thing people getting interogated or questioned hear from the authoities is "you did a mistake and know about this when you are doing it". then depending upon your answers, the conversation grows. unless they are convinced that there was no wrong done, these people getting questioned need to get to their office and answer new questions. the officers keep calling once or twice a month and get the answers. then finally when they believe they have all the info, they will get the FIR done. till the case is obviously referred to the court.

this is not the first time i am explaining about bitcoin to an authority http://www.coindesk.com/indian-tax-authorities-seek-clarification-bitcoin/

it is never as simple as - ok you did the crime, get into jail. or - oh you did not do anything wrong, please walk out now.

as i explained, we are summoned to explain a set of transaction by an user. so they would obviously continue questioning us to know fully about how bitcoin got used in the incident and how such thing can be avoided in future. the officers i am talking to, did not know much about bitcoin before our attempt to explain how it works. today i am explaining to his senior and he do not know much about bitcoin as well and he is not a technology guy.

the office i am visiting right now is related to the place where unocoin customer resided when the incident involving those transaction happened. unfortunately it is not the head quarters of the authority or have a set of people who researches about technology. this is the first incident involving bitcoins the office is seeing - they want to know more about it as to know what exactly about bitcoin is making their job tougher.

i wish people or officers in india know about bitcoin as much as that 68 year old lady did.

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dashingriddler (OP)
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May 08, 2015, 05:02:16 AM
 #84

Back to the reason for me to start this thread.

Two questions that I could not fully answer yesterday but will attempt to answer today:

1. "governments cannot regulate bitcoin because of its psudo-anonymous nature and govt do not regulate unless it can be fully controlled."
My answers for now: http://www.dfs.ny.gov/about/press2015/pr1505071.htm and to explain how this has been seen in US.

2. "You keep saying the bitcoins are trackable but that needs questioning of every individual who is invovled to know the next link and this is not fully practical when crime gets committed. not able to trace one link like the rest of the chain untraceable"
My answer is about the new technologies and businesses which help parse through a ton of the blockchain data, and make it easier for law enforcement to monitor and make sense of transactions. one such business is https://chainalysis.com/

I am running a parallel email thread and these are the replies by our investor. so they are obviously reliable.
If there are any insights or inputs on these, please comment. else just try to keep this thread clear from troll - it is not adding value

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May 08, 2015, 11:44:47 AM
 #85

Check also this video
https://www.itbit.com/blog/watch-bitcoin-blockchain-and-the-future-of-financial-transactions

Supporting people with beautiful creative ideas. Bitcoin is because of the developers,exchanges,merchants,miners,investors,users,machines and blockchain technologies work together.
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May 08, 2015, 03:17:05 PM
 #86

Sathvik, it seems btcxindia.com is shutting down due to crackdown, can you let us know who were the authorities??

PLEASE DON'T HANDOVER ANY CUSTOMER DATA UNTIL YOU GET PROPER SUMMONS OR WARRANTS
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May 08, 2015, 03:55:41 PM
 #87

Sathvik, it seems btcxindia.com is shutting down due to crackdown, can you let us know who were the authorities??

PLEASE DON'T HANDOVER ANY CUSTOMER DATA UNTIL YOU GET PROPER SUMMONS OR WARRANTS

+1 . Please don't sell out under pressure. Remain ethical.

"India is the guru of the nations, the physician of the human soul in its profounder maladies; she is destined once more to remould the life of the world and restore the peace of the human spirit.
But Swaraj is the necessary condition of her work and before she can do the work, she must fulfil the condition."
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May 08, 2015, 05:22:58 PM
 #88

Sathvik can you please assure the community, that you will not crackdown under pressure....please.....
dashingriddler (OP)
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May 08, 2015, 05:30:51 PM
 #89

Good video - could not watch in full. will do some time.

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dashingriddler (OP)
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May 08, 2015, 05:34:01 PM
 #90

Sathvik, it seems btcxindia.com is shutting down due to crackdown, can you let us know who were the authorities??

PLEASE DON'T HANDOVER ANY CUSTOMER DATA UNTIL YOU GET PROPER SUMMONS OR WARRANTS
Yes, they are shutting because of loss of banking partner. We are good on this front.

Sure - no data will be given unless i get proper summons or warrants. Present discussions are pertaining to bitcoin technology itself than the business activities on bitcoin.

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May 08, 2015, 05:35:11 PM
 #91

thanks  Smiley
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May 08, 2015, 05:43:38 PM
 #92

any idea what banks they use?
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May 08, 2015, 06:01:58 PM
 #93

Sathvik, it seems btcxindia.com is shutting down due to crackdown, can you let us know who were the authorities??

PLEASE DON'T HANDOVER ANY CUSTOMER DATA UNTIL YOU GET PROPER SUMMONS OR WARRANTS

+1 . Please don't sell out under pressure. Remain ethical.
Sure, i would go all in to serve bitcoin community in india.

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May 08, 2015, 06:46:25 PM
 #94

Update on todays meeting:
Met with the officer whom i have been meeting since 2 days. The meeting was short.

Meeting with the higher office above this person did not happen.

Explained what chainalysis is doing and how it could be helpful in law enforcement. He asked me to track a particular address to start with using this tool and report it. this is one of the addresses involved in transaction which we are trying to crack down.

http://www.dfs.ny.gov/about/press2015/pr1505071.htm did not make much sense as it is not indian. i brought this up just as a sort of FYI though.

Through an intro i did catch up on skype with chainalysis guys to see if their tool is helpful. I found it to be incredible and it did provide some of the insights of the transaction in question.

I (or harish) will be reporting the findings during our next meeting with the officer in a week or so. probably there wont be any new news on this till then.

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May 08, 2015, 08:28:33 PM
 #95

any idea what banks they use?
kotak

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cyphos
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May 09, 2015, 05:56:44 AM
 #96

they should just move to HDFC, ICICI or Axis.....plenty of options....there is more to BTCXINDIA.COM closing story.........
dashingriddler (OP)
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May 09, 2015, 06:33:51 AM
 #97

they should just move to HDFC, ICICI or Axis.....plenty of options....there is more to BTCXINDIA.COM closing story.........
I would at least say, there would be more reasons than this one alone.

CENTRA

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cyphos
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May 09, 2015, 08:02:08 AM
 #98

+1

BTCXIndia.com CEO Kamlesh is definately not very open.......
vennali
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May 09, 2015, 08:32:26 AM
 #99

He asked me to track a particular address to start with using this tool and report it. this is one of the addresses involved in transaction which we are trying to crack down.

I (or harish) will be reporting the findings during our next meeting with the officer in a week or so. probably there wont be any new news on this till then.

Maybe you can post the address or the transaction on here, and we could help track or find it. Then you could just claim it was Chainanalysis that helped you find out the information.

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May 09, 2015, 03:27:18 PM
 #100

I cannot understand why you are interacting with a government agency on behalf of your business (that is a custodian of identity and financial data) without using a lawyer. It just seems funny that a government agent is asking you to do what is supposed to be their job, and you seem to be happily complying. What you should be doing instead is searching for a lawyer who is knowledgeable enough about bitcoin and having him on retainer to defend your company as and when required.

What you are doing now is essentially similar to breaching the trust your customers had placed in you when providing you with their personal data. Remember, everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty. If the government official thinks a crime has been committed, they need to follow the proper procedures outlined for them to investigate it, not hassle you. If they need information from your company, they need to produce a court order (or it's equivalent in India). Of course, these are things your lawyer will be able to tell you more about. It's not guilty people who use a lawyer, it's the sensible ones.

For a company that is as well funded as yours, your behaviour is very shocking.

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