Libertarianism's state in Europe?

[GreenStox]

What do you think Libertarianism's state and progress is in Europe? And in Europe I don't just mean UK ,Germany and France (yes there are other countries too).

What do you think is our progress ? Will Bitcoin open the eyes of the sleeping sheeps?

=== Here are my thoughts===

I don't know about you guys but Socialism still has a big grip on Europe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_International

In my view socialism will fall eventually, it's a perversely idiotic system. Which can slip easily into Communism but it has a small chance, atleast in the eastern countries. I`m not sure in the western countries, they are pretty communistic now: France, Belgium,etc.

Also I see a big uproar of nationalism, and I think this is the dominant theme now, people are tired of socialism so they replace it with nationalistic systems, mostly (neo) liberal, or just plain EU-skeptic parties. Now this is good news, the EU is just a giant mess that need to dissolve (we dont need 1 world government) , but it could decentralize tyrrany and bring it back to the nation states.

A dejavu of the 1850's years , history repeats itself, all those nationalist idiots, want to repeat history.

So basically the sheeple gets steered between socialism vs nationalism, which are basically the same, they are both collectivists.

Will the sheeple ever become individualistic again or is the zombie-borg-collectivism our doomed destiny? Will ever libertarianism/anarcho-capitalism become mainstream, or we will just be a fringe group in a society of brainwashed sheeple?  

Let's discuss your opinions.

[saddampbuh]

why should anyone in his right mind support libertarianism unless he is very rich and hopes to pay less tax? i like that society takes care of me if i lose my job and sorts my healthcare out so i never have to think about paying or filling in forms and i think so do most europeans. nobody mentions libertarianism over here unless they're interviewing ron paul or something. ukip (british party) suggested flat taxes and privatising our healthcare but soon dropped the policies when they realised everyone including their own members hated the idea.

[GreenStox]

why should anyone in his right mind support libertarianism unless he is very rich and hopes to pay less tax? i like that society takes care of me if i lose my job and sorts my healthcare out so i never have to think about paying or filling in forms and i think so do most europeans. nobody mentions libertarianism over here unless they're interviewing ron paul or something. ukip (british party) suggested flat taxes and privatising our healthcare but soon dropped the policies when they realised everyone including their own members hated the idea.

Because it's the ultimate arrogance of taxing people to pay for other people's things. And keep in mind 60% of tax revenue comes from middle and poor class.

The rich people doesn't pay taxes. Loopholes, etc. However, they provide already a better service to the community than the whole poor stratum combined, so why should they? It's a meritocracy. A billionaire creates 1 million jobs, while 1 million people pay more taxes than him, obviously.

I`m talking about honest billionaires, not the central bank and other bankster thief types, they are an abomination.

Healthcare can be private, government healthcare is the worst in the known universe. But unless you eliminate govenrment healthcare, private healthcare will always be expensive. Basic economics 101. (supply & demand)

Libertarianism = freedom. Freedom for the rich to become more rich, and freedom for the poor to become rich.
Socialism = slavery. Freedom for the political tyrants to oppress the poor. And freedom for the poor to stay poor forever.

Deal with it.

[Lethn]

You guys keep ranting on about socialism but I'm pretty sure you don't understand what it actually means like most Americans who rant about it, what we have in the UK in particular is an Imperialist Aristocracy, the guys we have in power in the UK at least are obsessed about what their next job is going to be and nearly all of them have their sights on the EU commission which is why they don't want people even voting on it because it's so unpopular. There are small pockets of Libertarianism and Anarchism around but mostly politics is filled with a bunch of socialites and thugs, hell we even have Anarcho-communists out there who are basically Authoritarian scumbags, if there are any left Anarchists in the UK who don't follow these guys let me know it'd be nice to know you don't support them.

Remember how I told you guys about the UK school system and how socialites and thugs were the only ones there? Well guess where our politics comes from, it's not as sophisticated as you all like to believe.

[Snail2]

Apart for Switzerland, Libertarianism in Europe is a pretty much non existing thing. The european culture is rooted in an autocratic past where decisions were made by the ruler and the nobility, welfare services were provided by the church and the ruling class, and common people had no vote on issues of the state. Today we are living in mostly socialist(ic) welfare states and people still/again expecting decisions and care from the state, and the state is happy to provide these services in exchange for our liberties. (Most ppl do not even notice this, as they just not using these liberties and rights as the welfare state made most of it "redundant".) BTW we can vote now, but we can vote only on the question about who will make the decisions instead of us. So we are pretty much in the same situation as we were a hundred, two hundred or a thousand years ago but most ppl are actually OK with this.

[GreenStox]

You guys keep ranting on about socialism but I'm pretty sure you don't understand what it actually means like most Americans who rant about it, what we have in the UK in particular is an Imperialist Aristocracy, the guys we have in power in the UK at least are obsessed about what their next job is going to be and nearly all of them have their sights on the EU commission which is why they don't want people even voting on it because it's so unpopular. There are small pockets of Libertarianism and Anarchism around but mostly politics is filled with a bunch of socialites and thugs, hell we even have Anarcho-communists out there who are basically Authoritarian scumbags, if there are any left Anarchists in the UK who don't follow these guys let me know it'd be nice to know you don't support them.

Remember how I told you guys about the UK school system and how socialites and thugs were the only ones there? Well guess where our politics comes from, it's not as sophisticated as you all like to believe.

Why are you leftist anarchist? Does that make sense?

Ok we can all establish that monarchy/democracy/imperialism and any form of thug rule is out of question for freedom. But so again collectivism aswell, you can't organize a society without hierarchy. So are you saying you don't need society? I dont think so.

In a libertarian world you need the capitalist hierarchy to sustain the society and civilization itself. The only thing is that it is voluntary and not forced on you and robbed by taxing, from you.

I have no problem with leftist anarchists , as long as you don't force me to become one, because that is contrary to your principle isn't it? 

So i think libertarian/anarcho-capitalism is the superior system, while leftist anarcho-sindicalists or whatever could be a subgroup. You can buy yourself a property and set up a leftist commune there, nobody would stop you, the problem is that, while we libertarians would tolerate that.
You guys would not tolerate vice versa. Whats your take on that? And who is the tyrant here then?

[Lethn]

I'm a centre Anarcho-voluntaryst for fucks sake, I like free markets, point is you guys don't even seem to know the political systems you're criticising, in case you didn't notice, I'm defending you, what we have here isn't a free market or democracy at all -_-

[GreenStox]

I'm a centre Anarcho-voluntaryst for fucks sake, I like free markets, point is you guys don't even seem to know the political systems you're criticising, in case you didn't notice, I'm defending you, what we have here isn't a free market or democracy at all -_-

Oh sorry, i misread your post, i thought you were looking for leftist anarchists lol.

if there are any left Anarchists in the UK who don't follow these guys let me know it'd be nice to know you don't support them.

I`m 100% for free market, but I don't like democracy. I`m not from UK, but it's the same everywhere around the world. Yes its an oligarchy , big companies buy votes, we all know that.

But even a 100% honest, legitimate democracy would eventually fail, because the voters are greedy, and resources are finite, thus you will need a central bank to printe money for them. And after you impoverished them with increasing taxes, that pay the interest on the debt, you will give them welfare.

So basically every democracy will turn into communism after a while. It's inevitable 

[Lethn]

That's why cryptocurrencies are such a good idea, they are a way to mathematically stop the madness that is deficit spending and hyperinflation, also trust me I've done my research into Anarchism, I quite like the Anarcho-Syndicalists etc. sure, some of them aren't 100% for free markets, but you'll find a lot of them are anti-authoritarian, they're not bad at all, it's the pricks who want to use violence to get their way that we need to be wary of.

[GreenStox]

That's why cryptocurrencies are such a good idea, they are a way to mathematically stop the madness that is deficit spending and hyperinflation, also trust me I've done my research into Anarchism, I quite like the Anarcho-Syndicalists etc. sure, some of them aren't 100% for free markets, but you'll find a lot of them are anti-authoritarian, they're not bad at all, it's the pricks who want to use violence to get their way that we need to be wary of.

I`m for everything that is voluntary, if leftists want to make for themselves a commune where they share stuff, it's their thing, but then everyone should be able to leave at any time (not like a concentration camp of forcet labour lol)

Who knows i might join one of those communes if i would feel like it, after it would be created.

The main issue revolves around "authority" and "voluntarysm", because the 2 words contradict eachother. If you got already a mayor for that commune, thats not anarchist. So i`m not sure how a syndicalist commune would handle their affairs.

I`m a libertarian/anarcho-capitalist, i wish in my lifetime to see atleast minarchism, but i would want that only as a transition phase, anarcho-capitalism is probably the idea for the 22nd century. There are far too many sheeple currently on the planet unfortunately to become realizable in this century 

Apart for Switzerland, Libertarianism in Europe is a pretty much non existing thing. The european culture is rooted in an autocratic past where decisions were made by the ruler and the nobility, welfare services were provided by the church and the ruling class, and common people had no vote on issues of the state. Today we are living in mostly socialist(ic) welfare states and people still/again expecting decisions and care from the state, and the state is happy to provide these services in exchange for our liberties. (Most ppl do not even notice this, as they just not using these liberties and rights as the welfare state made most of it "redundant".) BTW we can vote now, but we can vote only on the question about who will make the decisions instead of us. So we are pretty much in the same situation as we were a hundred, two hundred or a thousand years ago but most ppl are actually OK with this.

Yep. Most are monarchies, which people are always used to the ruling class, dont even question it. Then there are the democrats who think they invented the wheel with democracy, too bad that wheel will lead them off the cliff. Every democracy will collapse into communism eventually.

And democracy is still the same, it's like a noble council, the same tyrants, only in suits this time and not wearing crowns.

[Snail2]

Because it's the ultimate arrogance of taxing people to pay for other people's things. And keep in mind 60% of tax revenue comes from middle and poor class.

Well, there is a thing called solidarity and I'm happy to pay for saving the lives of other people. Of course I'm expecting the same when I'm in trouble. I know there are parasites in the system but at least our parasites are parasites in need, and not parasites like an insurance company what only want to make money from our troubles.

Healthcare can be private, government healthcare is the worst in the known universe. But unless you eliminate govenrment healthcare, private healthcare will always be expensive. Basic economics 101. (supply & demand)

Where did you heard such stupidities? (No criticism, just asking.) I've seen both private and state healthcare, and I must say private medical services are only good if you are rich enough, otherwise it's just a form of extortion. Health insurance companies are the worst scum who are happy to let you die if that's the more profitable option. State provided healthcare is actually one of the few good things in the socialistic type countries.

[GreenStox]

Well, there is a thing called solidarity and I'm happy to pay for saving the lives of other people. Of course I'm expecting the same when I'm in trouble. I know there are parasites in the system but at least our parasites are parasites in need, and not parasites like the insurance companies what only want to make money from our troubles.

But that is not taxing. That is charity what you described. You give volutarly money to a starving child or whatever people in trouble.

Taxing is theft (or even armed robbery if they send thugs after you). And 90% of the money goes into corrupt politician or bankster hands, and only 10% may or may not get there through bureocracy.

If you remove the force from taxation, then its not taxation anymore, it's social charity, and i`m sure many people would pay into that. It's just that you can't force them to do so.

Where did you heard such stupidities? (No criticism, just asking.) I've seen both private and state healthcare, and I must say private medical services are only good if you are rich enough, otherwise it's just a form of extortion. Health insurance companies are the worst scum who are happy to let you die if that's the more profitable option. State provided healthcare is actually one of the few good things in the socialistic type countries.

Idk in what country you live, but where i live state healthcare is an abomination. Sometimes you need to wait 5-6 months for a surgery. Also Canada the "socialist paradise" also becomes a nightmare now, there are few countries where the government healthcare is of quality, and i`m sure in most of them it's not.

Private healthcare is only expensive because the government is their competitor, and the govenrment doesnt like competition, it likes being on monopoly, so obviously it has more funds, and you cant compete with that. If government healthcare would be eliminated (not in 1 day, but gradually), then people would see that they would pay the same insurance cost or even less ,and get 1000x better results.

Even at the cost of putting ad bilboards (for ad revenue) all around the hospital, would be  worth it 

[Snail2]

But that is not taxing. That is charity what you described. You give volutarly money to a starving child or whatever people in trouble.
Taxing is theft (or even armed robbery if they send thugs after you). And 90% of the money goes into corrupt politician or bankster hands, and only 10% may or may not get there through bureocracy.
If you remove the force from taxation, then its not taxation anymore, it's social charity, and i`m sure many people would pay into that. It's just that you can't force them to do so.

IMO nothing wrong with a reasonable taxation if the spending is transparent and the government is accountable. I agree, today none of these three things are true. Anyway I'm still more comfortable to see basic services in the hands of even a corrupt government than in the hands of some corporations and their bankster associates. We are still have some little control over the politicians but none over the corporations.

Idk in what country you live, but where i live state healthcare is an abomination. Sometimes you need to wait 5-6 months for a surgery. Also Canada the "socialist paradise" also becomes a nightmare now, there are few countries where the government healthcare is of quality, and i`m sure in most of them it's not.

Private healthcare is only expensive because the government is their competitor, and the govenrment doesnt like competition, it likes being on monopoly, so obviously it has more funds, and you cant compete with that. If government healthcare would be eliminated (not in 1 day, but gradually), then people would see that they would pay the same insurance cost or even less ,and get 1000x better results.

Even at the cost of putting ad bilboards (for ad revenue) all around the hospital, would be  worth it 

Well the US is the perfect counter-example for what you said. As far as I know nearly one third of the americans are simply can't afford any health care at all, because the costs, and some 800 000 ppl per year get killed by the "1000x better" health care. BTW even in the States 5% of the patients have to wait 5-6 months for a surgery...

[saddampbuh]

Because it's the ultimate arrogance of taxing people to pay for other people's things. And keep in mind 60% of tax revenue comes from middle and poor class.

most "poor" people in europe pay very little or no tax at all. minimum wage workers often qualify for welfare because governments have set minimum wages at levels that don't provide enough money to live on. a bit like the american food stamps but our people are better provided for.

The rich people doesn't pay taxes. Loopholes, etc. However, they provide already a better service to the community than the whole poor stratum combined, so why should they? It's a meritocracy. A billionaire creates 1 million jobs, while 1 million people pay more taxes than him, obviously.

I`m talking about honest billionaires, not the central bank and other bankster thief types, they are an abomination.

if those million people all work for the minimum wage there's a good chance that billionaire contributes more in tax and that is exactly as it should be. the money was earned by the workers, not the billionaire.

Healthcare can be private, government healthcare is the worst in the known universe. But unless you eliminate govenrment healthcare, private healthcare will always be expensive. Basic economics 101. (supply & demand)

the american system of private insurance is more than twice as expensive as the british national health service.

Libertarianism = freedom. Freedom for the rich to become more rich, and freedom for the poor to become rich.
Socialism = slavery. Freedom for the political tyrants to oppress the poor. And freedom for the poor to stay poor forever.

Deal with it.

judging from the lack of interest in libertarian politics it would appear most europeans have the good sense to realise they aren't going to become rich and would rather make sure whatever system is in place provides for at least their most basic needs

if you want people to support your politics you're going to have to come up with something better than the usual half baked nonsense about how its immoral and arrogant to expect the rich to pay more tax. people vote for what's in their interests, not someone else's.

[GreenStox]

IMO nothing wrong with a reasonable taxation if the spending is transparent and the government is accountable. I agree, today none of these three things are true. Anyway I'm still more comfortable to see basic services in the hands of even a corrupt government than in the hands of some corporations and their bankster associates. We are still have some little control over the politicians but none over the corporations.

Me too, but ultimately in a free society there would not be corporations. Because a corporation is a governmental entity, it gives them legal shield from prosecution, so they can do any nasty thing.

A normal company is not shielded from responsibility, and in a free world there would be only small & medium size companies.

Banksters are already a joke, once bitcoin takes over, there would be no more need for them.

Well the US is the perfect counter-example for what you said. As far as I know nearly one third of the americans are simply can't afford any health care at all, because the costs, and some 800 000 ppl per year get killed by the "1000x better" health care. BTW even in the States 5% of the patients have to wait 5-6 months for a surgery...

Well maybe you guys should change your habits. If you guys eat all day at mcdonals and everyone is overweight, risk of heart disease is imminent, then obvisously the health care will cost alot, and insurance companies have to adjust to that.

It's not the fault of the insurer that people live very risky lives, and the mortality rate is very high, if people would be more cautious and would live a healthier life, the health care cost would go down.

Thats just a fact.  Then again "corporation" is a governmental entity. Make all insurers small or medium size and all problems would be solved.

[GreenStox]

most "poor" people in europe pay very little or no tax at all. minimum wage workers often qualify for welfare because governments have set minimum wages at levels that don't provide enough money to live on. a bit like the american food stamps but our people are better provided for.

Yea but who's fault is that really. If you have to choose between 2 opressive bosses to work for, that is not really a choice. If you tax them, they will fire more people, or cut their wages. Or just raise the price to the goods, but then people could not afford it even more.

See you can never tax a capitalist because he will just shift the tax either to his workers or to his customers. And it's also a stupid thing, it's like hurting your own hand that feeds you.

So neither capitalists, nor middle class citizens should be taxed.Nor obviously the poor people cant be taxed either. So the only solution is to abolish all taxes, that is the fair part.

And then you dont have to choose between 2 opressive bosses, but from 30 average bosses. If things go well, the employer will compete for the worker and not vice versa.

if those million people all work for the minimum wage there's a good chance that billionaire contributes more in tax and that is exactly as it should be. the money was earned by the workers, not the billionaire.

Nominally yes, but in % no. BTW why are those poor people poor in the first place? That is the main question to ask.

Isn't it because nobody can start a shop without trillions of permits and regulation? Isn't it the government that gives goodies to the lobbying corporations, while the small business owners get a dong in their backside?

I mean who is favoritizing the corporations (rich people), and gives a damn about small business?

It's always the government.

So believe me I want also equality between people, but socialism does exactly the opposite, always. Only freedom can cure poverty.

Example: Cuba (socialism) vs Singapore (capitalism)
The leaders got in charge at the same time, and Singapore from a fishing village became a rich metropolis, while Cuba from the luxury resort became a communist poverty hellhole. Do you want Greece to become the same? (too bad greece has some nice resort places)

judging from the lack of interest in libertarian politics it would appear most europeans have the good sense to realise they aren't going to become rich and would rather make sure whatever system is in place provides for at least their most basic needs

if you want people to support your politics you're going to have to come up with something better than the usual half baked nonsense about how its immoral and arrogant to expect the rich to pay more tax. people vote for what's in their interests, not someone else's.

The desires of the voters are infinite, and can't be all financed from taxes, so you will always need central banks to print money. The only way to get rid of banksters is by cutting all deficit spending and reducing government size.

the american system of private insurance is more than twice as expensive as the british national health service.

Because they live shitty and irresponsible lives. Alot of smokers, drinkers, obese people, driving accidents, cancer, gun death?

+ The government healthcare competes with it, and you cant compete with the government.

[TheButterZone]

Because they live shitty and irresponsible lives. Alot of smokers, drinkers, obese people, driving accidents, cancer, gun death?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_cigarette_consumption_per_capita
UK: 750 cigarettes per adult per year
US: 1,028 cigarettes per adult per year
(not to mention children smoking)

but

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_tobacco_consumption#United_States
US: 26.3% (+/- 3.15) males smoke, 21.5% (+/- 3.5) females smoke
UK: 36.7% (+/- 1.15) males smoke, 34.7% (+/- 1.05) females smoke

Drinking: no good stats easily found.

http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/Obesity-Update-2014.pdf
US: 35.3%
UK: 24.7%

Driving accidents: no good stats just covering injury and not just fatalities easily found

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/jan/24/worldwide-cancer-rates-uk-rate-drops
US 300.2 per 100k
UK 266.9 per 100k

Gun death: coroners and morticians are not included in the health system

[BlitzandBitz]

I think Europe is far from being a libertarian paradise. They just have to many socialist ideas and organizations.

[saddampbuh]

Yea but who's fault is that really. If you have to choose between 2 opressive bosses to work for, that is not really a choice. If you tax them, they will fire more people, or cut their wages. Or just raise the price to the goods, but then people could not afford it even more.

See you can never tax a capitalist because he will just shift the tax either to his workers or to his customers. And it's also a stupid thing, it's like hurting your own hand that feeds you.

So neither capitalists, nor middle class citizens should be taxed.Nor obviously the poor people cant be taxed either. So the only solution is to abolish all taxes, that is the fair part.

And then you dont have to choose between 2 opressive bosses, but from 30 average bosses. If things go well, the employer will compete for the worker and not vice versa.

didn't mean to give the impression i was complaining about tax levels or poverty or fairness or anything of that nature because i wasn't. i was explaining why libertarians offering tax cuts to people who already don't pay tax isn't likely to appeal to them.

Nominally yes, but in % no. BTW why are those poor people poor in the first place? That is the main question to ask.

they aren't necessarily poor they just don't earn above the income tax paying thresholds in most places. government can either subsidise low wages by paying state benefits or force the employer to pay directly by increasing the minimum wage. same result.

libertarianism isnt going to make wal mart workers rich nor is it going to abolish the need for wal mart workers to exist.

The desires of the voters are infinite, and can't be all financed from taxes, so you will always need central banks to print money. The only way to get rid of banksters is by cutting all deficit spending and reducing government size.

their desires are pretty basic. enough to eat if you lose your job, somewhere to live, not being left to die when you get cancer. nobody is asking govenment to provide them with jaccuzis and rolls royces.

in europe most people would rather pool some of their resources into a system that pays out when they need it than be forced to make their own arrangements

opinion polls have shown most americans would like this as well at least on healthcare but neither party offers this option

Because they live shitty and irresponsible lives. Alot of smokers, drinkers, obese people, driving accidents, cancer, gun death?

+ The government healthcare competes with it, and you cant compete with the government.

the reason is the people who work in it earn a lot more money and there are shareholders expecting to get paid every year. we dont have to worry about these thing so its cheaper and everyone has access to it

i don't live in greece but since you ask i want them to elect the national socialist party golden dawn. not the pacifict metrosexual social democracy europe currently lives under nor the short sighted selfish individualism of unrestrained capitalism .

[GreenStox]

didn't mean to give the impression i was complaining about tax levels or poverty or fairness or anything of that nature because i wasn't. i was explaining why libertarians offering tax cuts to people who already don't pay tax isn't likely to appeal to them.

Yes but it's impossible to tax a corporation, because they will just shift the burden to their employers:  fire them or cut their salary, or to the customers: rise prices.

None of that is good for that country, however there are only 2 solutions: you nationalize it = communism , and we know how that works out, if you dont, then thats fascism.

Or you just abolish all taxes & regulation (of which corporations are already exempt, why not make other people too?): in which case, a fired worker can just set up a lemonade stand, without permit, and sell lemonade, and make money the next day.

Of course, this is too extremist, how dare we sell lemonade without permit... we must beg our slave master government first for permit....

their desires are pretty basic. enough to eat if you lose your job, somewhere to live, not being left to die when you get cancer. nobody is asking govenment to provide them with jaccuzis and rolls royces.

in europe most people would rather pool some of their resources into a system that pays out when they need it than be forced to make their own arrangements

opinion polls have shown most americans would like this as well at least on healthcare but neither party offers this option

If it were that simple then society would not look like this. They all want welfare and they dont want to do anything about it.

I mean even you admit that you would like to see other people robbed so that you get welfrare...  

Wouldnt it be more moral to just earn it yourself and pay the insurer?

And if you want a peaceful and moral society, you cant base it on robbery (taxes).

the reason is the people who work in it earn a lot more money and there are shareholders expecting to get paid every year. we dont have to worry about these thing so its cheaper and everyone has access to it

i don't live in greece but since you ask i want them to elect the national socialist party golden dawn. not the pacifict metrosexual social democracy europe currently lives under nor the short sighted selfish individualism of unrestrained capitalism .

And that would cause what? Another world war? More violence and coercion. No thanks, i dont want to see the 21 century become a bloodbath again.

I thought humanity has evolved past this tribalish violence based society, but i guess i was wrong.