Bryan Micon's List of Non-BCST Ponzi's Still Running (with credit rating)

[Metal]

Clearly, the "How to Identify a Ponzi" post wasn't clear enough. The very first "hint" that something "might" be a ponzi was: > 50% APR.

Indeed, it makes no sense to ask people to lend you money at those ridiculously high rates. It's literally pissing away money. Even credit card companies' usury rates are nowhere near as bad.

So, props to Micon for trying to make it clearer. Too bad nobody will listen, as usual.

[Micon]

Clearly, the "How to Identify a Ponzi" post wasn't clear enough. The very first "hint" that something "might" be a ponzi was: > 50% APR.

Indeed, it makes no sense to ask people to lend you money at those ridiculously high rates. It's literally pissing away money. Even credit card companies' usury rates are nowhere near as bad.

So, props to Micon for trying to make it clearer. Too bad nobody will listen, as usual.

I ask you to join me Metal.

This culture of blatant scamming is embarrassing legit BTC operations like SealsWithClubs.  We can't be known as the scam-currency and expect to grow.

[bitlane]

You can't correct people's greed.....

Look at GPUMAX, a 'Mining Service' ? Clearly a Money Laundering Operation, withheld miner payouts for days during this 'Pirate Fiasco' yet they get a quick taste of Bitcoins again and EVERYONE flocks back to them in droves.

People are fucking retards.

In the words of another great man, who, himself was a great scammer:

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...and...er....we can't get fooled again

[matthewh3]

http://ripper234.com/p/why-i-trust-patrick-harnett/

Disclosure I have small balances with Patrick Harnett and HashKing.  The reason I've split my money between two investors is to offer a better balance if one defaults.  Remember don't invest what you can't afford to loose.  Also I was discussing a possible very large loan off one of them not too long ago so I can see how they make money.

[bitlane]

The reason I've split my money between two investors is to offer a better balance if one defaults.

Well, under the circumstances, you should be thanking your lucky stars that you did.

[Shadow383]

Look at GPUMAX, a 'Mining Service' ? Clearly a Money Laundering Operation, withheld miner payouts for days during this 'Pirate Fiasco' yet they get a quick taste of Bitcoins again and EVERYONE flocks back to them in droves.

Although, payments are once again current. I just got paid by them again. Hey, maybe I have a part of your "2650" BTC  

Hi PatrickHarnett's wife.  Nothing personal, just hate scams and feel the need to protect BTC.  Your husband is running a scam, and while it may be hard to accept it is the truth.

Can we please try to be civil? I can understand why Patrick wants to keep some of his personal details off the forum (although he's not terribly difficult to find if you look - If you must go on another crusade why not look up Patrick's phone number on google and you can call him to discuss this directly?)
I did have some small deposit with Patrick until recently - shortly after the BS&T collapse when my hopping proxy was also having a run of particularly bad luck, I decided to liquidate some of my investments until the storm died down, much as Kluge has done.

Speaking of which, why do you have Kluge on this list? Find me a ponzi that flat out stops accepting any new deposits due to market conditions. It's not even like Kluge's rates are hard to make in the bitcoin environment.

Finally - Quick question for Patrick - I notice you were buying BitcoinMax accounts soon after the BS&T collapse. How do you value these when determining overall liquidity (right now it seems like you've taken a really substantial hit on a mark-to-market basis) and what's your overall BS&T exposure looking like? That's got to be a pretty significant drag on your balance sheet...

[bitlane]

Look at GPUMAX, a 'Mining Service' ? Clearly a Money Laundering Operation, withheld miner payouts for days during this 'Pirate Fiasco' yet they get a quick taste of Bitcoins again and EVERYONE flocks back to them in droves.

Although, payments are once again current. I just got paid by them again. Hey, maybe I have a part of your "2650" BTC  

And there it is. Regardless of what Trendon has done or is involved in doing, at the end of the day, the community at large seems to have spoken again and what they are saying is: MONEY TALKS.

People can not be cured of GREED and will continue to use that service. As I have said previously, I was booted out of GPUMAX in Feb or March for 1 week, then got back in. I finally quit (by my own doing) in May. I didn't care about the extra $5/day I would make.

[AndrewBUD]

Look at GPUMAX, a 'Mining Service' ? Clearly a Money Laundering Operation, withheld miner payouts for days during this 'Pirate Fiasco' yet they get a quick taste of Bitcoins again and EVERYONE flocks back to them in droves.

Although, payments are once again current. I just got paid by them again. Hey, maybe I have a part of your "2650" BTC  

And there it is. Regardless of what Trendon has done or is involved in doing, at the end of the day, the community at large seems to have spoken again and what they are saying is: MONEY TALKS.

People can not be cured of GREED and will continue to use that service. As I have said previously, I was booted out of GPUMAX in Feb or March for 1 week, then got back in. I finally quit (by my own doing) in May. I didn't care about the extra $5/day I would make.

I would never use that GPUmax,,, Stuck to the regular pools from day 1...

[Dansker]

We can't be known as the scam-currency and expect to grow.

Doesn't it simply prove that bitcoins are in fact becoming an accepted currency, now that all the scammers are here?

I would be more concerned if there were no scammers; then we'd have to worry!

[bitlane]

Doesn't it simply prove that bitcoins are in fact becoming an accepted currency, now that all the scammers are here?

I would be more concerned if there were no scammers; then we'd have to worry!

So by implication, if it's not worth stealing, it's not worth anything ?...lol

[Shadow383]

Doesn't it simply prove that bitcoins are in fact becoming an accepted currency, now that all the scammers are here?

I would be more concerned if there were no scammers; then we'd have to worry!

So by implication, if it's not worth stealing, it's not worth anything ?...lol

Yeah pretty much.
Personally I can't wait for the first time I see a nigerian scammer try to explain to someone how to set up a MtGox account.

[Scott J]

Clearly, the "How to Identify a Ponzi" post wasn't clear enough. The very first "hint" that something "might" be a ponzi was: > 50% APR.

Indeed, it makes no sense to ask people to lend you money at those ridiculously high rates. It's literally pissing away money. Even credit card companies' usury rates are nowhere near as bad.

So, props to Micon for trying to make it clearer. Too bad nobody will listen, as usual.

I ask you to join me Metal.

This culture of blatant scamming is embarrassing legit BTC operations like SealsWithClubs.  We can't be known as the scam-currency and expect to grow.

Do you accept that some people borrow and pay back BTC at 10% per month in the lending section?

Do you accept that someone could borrow BTC for 1%/week, lend it out for 2.5% per week, then pay it back?

[totaleclipseofthebank]

You should add Obsi's 1%/day ponzi scheme to this list. OBSI.HRPT

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91646.0

Also, obsi's futurefund seems like a ridiculous scam. FUTUREFUND

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87093.0

[EskimoBob]

Here is one for you. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77469.0
Not a ponzy but this guy is wasting investors coin fast.
It has lost more value in August than any of the defaulted PPT's.

[greyhawk]

I love the part where he goes "I can't be labelled a scammer. I am a forum mod." 

[Micon]

Clearly, the "How to Identify a Ponzi" post wasn't clear enough. The very first "hint" that something "might" be a ponzi was: > 50% APR.

Indeed, it makes no sense to ask people to lend you money at those ridiculously high rates. It's literally pissing away money. Even credit card companies' usury rates are nowhere near as bad.

So, props to Micon for trying to make it clearer. Too bad nobody will listen, as usual.

I ask you to join me Metal.

This culture of blatant scamming is embarrassing legit BTC operations like SealsWithClubs.  We can't be known as the scam-currency and expect to grow.

Do you accept that some people borrow and pay back BTC at 10% per month in the lending section?

Do you accept that someone could borrow BTC for 1%/week, lend it out for 2.5% per week, then pay it back?

These are very good questions and are key to understanding these scams:  

1)  Yes, I fully accept that there are a handful of legitimate users borrowing at these high rates (more than 1% per week, 10% for a 1 month loan, etc)

2)  however, there are not nearly enough of them (go add up a month's worth) to support the giant sizes of these high interest borrowing scams.  Vescudo alone has $25k USD on deposit with him.  RustyRyan has $6k USD on deposit.  PatrickHarnett has $100k+ with him.

Everyone says "look guys - people borrow at X% per week So I borrow at (X-1)% per week from you, handle all the BS, and we'll share the profits"  At the current size of this community, you could do this for a few hundred coins per month and make a very small profit.

Judging by PatrickHarnett's amateur-hour "My First Balance Sheet" for Starfish:

July 2012 activity (updated 1 August 2012)
 - 14 loans repaid  (approx 7800BTC)
 - 32 loans current (approx 8800 BTC)
 - 66 deposits (total approx 15400)
 - deposits repaid during the month (at call) >3600

Total liabilities (Deposits + other commitments) = 19,700
Total assets (cash, BTC, investments) = 37,100
Net assets 17,400BTC

looks like he is loaning out $88k USD currently.  Seems like the community couldn't support a fraction of this.

[Shadow383]

Clearly, the "How to Identify a Ponzi" post wasn't clear enough. The very first "hint" that something "might" be a ponzi was: > 50% APR.

Indeed, it makes no sense to ask people to lend you money at those ridiculously high rates. It's literally pissing away money. Even credit card companies' usury rates are nowhere near as bad.

So, props to Micon for trying to make it clearer. Too bad nobody will listen, as usual.

I ask you to join me Metal.

This culture of blatant scamming is embarrassing legit BTC operations like SealsWithClubs.  We can't be known as the scam-currency and expect to grow.

Do you accept that some people borrow and pay back BTC at 10% per month in the lending section?

Do you accept that someone could borrow BTC for 1%/week, lend it out for 2.5% per week, then pay it back?

These are very good questions and are key to understanding these scams:  

1)  Yes, I fully accept that there are a handful of legitimate users borrowing at these high rates (more than 1% per week, 10% for a 1 month loan, etc)

2)  however, there are not nearly enough of them (go add up a month's worth) to support the giant sizes of these high interest borrowing scams.  Vescudo alone has $25k USD on deposit with him.  RustyRyan has $6k USD on deposit.  PatrickHarnett has $100k+ with him.

Everyone says "look guys - people borrow at X% per week So I borrow at (X-1)% per week from you, handle all the BS, and we'll share the profits"  At the current size of this community, you could do this for a few hundred coins per month and make a very small profit.

Judging by PatrickHarnett's amateur-hour "My First Balance Sheet" for Starfish:

July 2012 activity (updated 1 August 2012)
 - 14 loans repaid  (approx 7800BTC)
 - 32 loans current (approx 8800 BTC)
 - 66 deposits (total approx 15400)
 - deposits repaid during the month (at call) >3600

Total liabilities (Deposits + other commitments) = 19,700
Total assets (cash, BTC, investments) = 37,100
Net assets 17,400BTC

looks like he is loaning out $88k USD currently.  Seems like the community couldn't support a fraction of this.

A lot of bigger loans get made over IRC. For example Patrick has set up some big 4-figure BTC loans to gigavps over IRC. It's still possible (indeed likely) that some of the lenders are scamming, but your argument is flawed.

[bitlane]

Judging by PatrickHarnett's amateur-hour "My First Balance Sheet" for Starfish:

July 2012 activity (updated 1 August 2012)
 - 14 loans repaid  (approx 7800BTC)
 - 32 loans current (approx 8800 BTC)
 - 66 deposits (total approx 15400)
 - deposits repaid during the month (at call) >3600

Total liabilities (Deposits + other commitments) = 19,700
Total assets (cash, BTC, investments) = 37,100
Net assets 17,400BTC

looks like he is loaning out $88k USD currently.  Seems like the community couldn't support a fraction of this.

Hey Bryan, I don't want to get in the middle of this, but there are a few things that you are missing, in the current view of your 'Starfish Microscope'.....

I have borrowed from Pattrick previously at decent rates and I know for a fact that he also currently finances certain hardware purchases, so the $88k is very believable and from what I know, may even be lower than normal due to the recent uncertainty in the hardware marketplace with upcoming technology emerging.

...just a thought, as it was before 'your time' here.
Allan

[Scott J]

A lot of bigger loans get made over IRC. For example Patrick has set up some big 4-figure BTC loans to gigavps over IRC. It's still possible (indeed likely) that some of the lenders are scamming, but your argument is flawed.

Yes, Micon's thinking seems to be based on the small selection of loan requests placed in the lending subforum. He underestimates the size of lending market.

People who take out large loans probably have existing relationships with the lendors and contact them directly. No need to post a thread.

[moni3z]

Although I think this guy Micon is 100% correct, it won't make a difference. Not like everybody on this board doesn't realize they're investing in ponzi schemes. They do it anyways because they believe they'll get out before the scam goes tits up and make a quick couple of K. Look at all these ponzi's, this is not unique to bitcoin. Notice how senior members of the board get in early and get out quickly after making their couple of thousands. Then the scam bloats and pops, HYIP admin runs away with all the funds, restarts a new scheme and repeats.

http://www.talkgold.com/forum/f261-.html
http://www.hyipstalk.com/hyip-discussion/
http://www.hyipsurftalk.com/current-hyips-discussion/
http://www.dreamteammoney.com/index.php?showforum=111
http://www.italkcash.com/
http://www.hyipexplorer.com/member/
http://www.moneymakergroup.com/HYIP-High-Yield-Investme-f9.html (over 3 million posts in this HYIP forum base)

imho, bitcoin is perfectly suited for Ponzi/HYIP schemes. Not only can you sell the fact that bitcoin speculation can potentially pay off, but you can easily automate the scheme and run it even more anonymously than perfect money and liberty reserve. I'm surprised there isn't a massive bitcoin HYIP forum, and only a handful here. The only difference between the programs here and those other forums is the HYIP admin's didn't have to invest $50,000+ in advertising and listing fees to start their ponzi.

HYIP investment is just another form of gambling. Just like poker you believe you have the skills to game the system and beat everybody else who ends up losing.