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Author Topic: "Long-term offers" - gonna have to tackle this 1 eventually  (Read 6565 times)
Bitcoin Oz
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September 03, 2012, 02:05:34 AM
 #21

1)  this is not the correct name for high-interest borrowing scams

Agree, I think a better classification or subforum would be "high-risk" or "buyer beware".    

Lowest quality debt rated CCC, or Distressed securities, are commonly defined as those yielding 1500 basis points over equivalent government bonds.  So I would put anything with an equivalent yearly rate above

1-year USA T-Bond Rate (currently 0.2%) + 15% = 15.2%

into a high-risk subforum.


No.

The easiest way to weed out all the scams would be to require lenders to provide proof of identity, location, current employment etc etc to the forum staff, on the understanding that in the event of a fraud these details will be made public and reported to the relevant authorities.
You could also require all lenders in the lending forum to make public spreadsheets detailing their assets and liabilities. This would have stopped BS&T very quickly.

Put those that don't meet this requirement in a High Yield Investment Programs (HYIPs) category.

I agree with this.

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September 03, 2012, 02:11:46 AM
 #22

I'm embarrassed by 'Long Term Offers'

Why? If people want to throw away their money, I don't want to get in the way. That's what I said before BS&T crashed, and I feel exactly the same now. Perhaps in the future there will be a few borrowers that are legitimately providing enough value to the Bitcoin economy to offer such high interest rates.

I certainly don't want the forum to get into the business of identity verification or deciding whether businesses are legitimate or suspicious. Someone else should do that.

I have several problems with categorization based on interest rates:

- People can just as easily create low-interest Ponzi schemes as high-interest ones.
- If there are too few categories, legitimate investments might be categorized with the scams. If there are too many, each section (especially the intermediate ones) will receive fewer readers. Borrowers would be incentivized to standardize on certain rates.
- When investments have differing interest rates for different types of accounts (like BS&T did), where should they go?
- Interest rates in BTC are currently higher than USD interest rates, and they will increase over time due to deflation, so it's difficult to guess the best ranges to use for the categories.

So I tend to think that doing nothing would be better than adding interest-based categorization. Third-parties can do their own categorization and accreditation. We can link to these third-parties in stickies.

Securities scares me because in the USA there are strict laws with even TALKING about securities.

I know, I know, Congress is supposed to make no law abridging freedom of speech. I worry that won't stop the SEC from seizing the bitcointalk.org domain name for promoting unlicensed securities.

I think a separate top-level domain for everything under the Marketplace heading would be the right thing to do.

It'd be easier to just move the whole forum to a new domain name. I don't really want to move it a fourth time, though...

Bitcointalk shouldnt be actively promoting or encouraging HYIP schemes.

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September 03, 2012, 02:19:17 AM
 #23

Themos thinks ponzis are jolly good. He used to peddled one some time ago. Don't count on him to do anything but continue facilitating these scams.

As you can see, he can't understand that by giving these scam-artists a forum with a legitimate-sounding title at the de facto official board he is actively facilitating and helping to promote criminal activity.

This place won't last long...

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theymos
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September 03, 2012, 02:31:57 AM
 #24

Bitcointalk shouldnt be actively promoting or encouraging HYIP schemes.

The forum doesn't promote anything. This is a platform for discussion.

Themos thinks ponzis are jolly good. He used to peddled one some time ago. Don't count on him to do anything but continue facilitating these scams.

That was a fun site which published all of the rules. No one was scammed there. I even called it a Ponzi scheme in my signature...

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September 03, 2012, 02:55:52 AM
 #25

Bitcointalk shouldnt be actively promoting or encouraging HYIP schemes.

The forum doesn't promote anything. This is a platform for discussion.


You see, your honor, I am just the landlord of the crackhouse. Yes, I fully knew what went on there, but my property served only as a "platform."

Themos thinks ponzis are jolly good. He used to peddled one some time ago. Don't count on him to do anything but continue facilitating these scams.

That was a fun site which published all of the rules. No one was scammed there. I even called it a Ponzi scheme in my signature...

Is this why you took part in pirate's ponzi scheme? Because you thought it would be fun? Did you "earn" any "interest" from it?

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theymos
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September 03, 2012, 03:32:51 AM
 #26

Is this why you took part in pirate's ponzi scheme? Because you thought it would be fun? Did you "earn" any "interest" from it?

It was fun, and still is! I have several bets and other deals related to the final outcome, which I'm excited to see resolved (hopefully in my favor). Ponzi schemes are a much more fun way of gambling than Satoshi's Dice, that's for sure.

I did win some BTC, which is rightfully mine. Pirateat40 is guilty of lying about the rules of the game, but the players are innocent. If a casino rigs a game, you wouldn't blame those players who made a profit (even if they may have guessed that the game was rigged) -- you blame the casino.

I never promoted BS&T, and I posted several times that I thought it was a Ponzi.

You see, your honor, I am just the landlord of the crackhouse. Yes, I fully knew what went on there, but my property served only as a "platform."

If I was only worried about morality instead of legality, that's exactly what I'd say. Nothing wrong with a crackhouse as long as there's no violence. I don't advocate doing drugs (I personally don't consume alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, or illegal drugs), but if people want to buy potentially dangerous drugs, that's their business.

This argument is equivalent to whether I should:
- Ban crackhouses entirely on my property. As a proponent of freedom, I would prefer not to do this.
- Determine which crackhouses may add poisons to drugs and ban them or put signs in front of them. This takes extra work and expertise that I'm not willing to deal with.
- Categorize the crackhouses based on how close to market levels their prices are, which may indicate the safety of the drugs sold there.

Wink

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gene
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September 03, 2012, 03:37:15 AM
 #27

Is this why you took part in pirate's ponzi scheme? Because you thought it would be fun? Did you "earn" any "interest" from it?

It was fun, and still is! I have several bets and other deals related to the final outcome, which I'm excited to see resolved (hopefully in my favor). Ponzi schemes are a much more fun way of gambling than Satoshi's Dice, that's for sure.

I did win some BTC, which is rightfully mine. Pirateat40 is guilty of lying about the rules of the game, but the players are innocent. If a casino rigs a game, you wouldn't blame those players who made a profit (even if they may have guessed that the game was rigged) -- you blame the casino.

I never promoted BS&T, and I posted several times that I thought it was a Ponzi.

You see, your honor, I am just the landlord of the crackhouse. Yes, I fully knew what went on there, but my property served only as a "platform."

If I was only worried about morality instead of legality, that's exactly what I'd say. Nothing wrong with a crackhouse as long as there's no violence. I don't advocate doing drugs (I personally don't consume alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, or illegal drugs), but if people want to buy potentially dangerous drugs, that's their business.

This argument is equivalent to whether I should categorize my crackhouses depending on how likely they are to cut dangerous substances into the drugs. Wink

Utterly disgraceful.

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theymos
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September 03, 2012, 03:38:15 AM
 #28

Utterly disgraceful.

Thanks for the detailed rebuttal.

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September 03, 2012, 03:40:08 AM
 #29

Yes, its time mods. make it happen.

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Raoul Duke
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September 03, 2012, 03:47:56 AM
 #30

If I was only worried about morality instead of legality, that's exactly what I'd say. Nothing wrong with a crackhouse as long as there's no violence. I don't advocate doing drugs (I personally don't consume alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, or illegal drugs), but if people want to buy potentially dangerous drugs, that's their business.

This argument is equivalent to whether I should:
- Ban crackhouses entirely on my property. As a proponent of freedom, I would prefer not to do this.
- Determine which crackhouses may add poisons to drugs and ban them or put signs in front of them. This takes extra work and expertise that I'm not willing to deal with.
- Categorize the crackhouses based on how close to market levels their prices are, which may indicate the safety of the drugs sold there.

Wink

Man, I would love to buy you diner(it would be cheap: no booze, no coffee, no cigars lol).
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September 03, 2012, 03:48:00 AM
 #31

Nothing wrong with a crackhouse




Need I say more?

Bro, do you even blockchain?
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September 03, 2012, 06:04:42 AM
 #32

I agree with Micon. I'm embarrassed by 'Long Term Offers' and scared by 'Securities'.


Theymos did you read this?

Does the lead bitcoin programmer's opinion not hold weight here? 

Gavin is embarrassed by 'Long Term Offers' - as he should be.  Look at what you did Theymos --> http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/27/3271637/bitcoin-savings-trust-pyramid-scheme-shuts-down  here is another story about how bitcoins are the scam-currency of the now.   

I want to one day read an article that is titled "Micro-lending in Africa succeeds with Bitcoin"  - but if we are ever to see that article written the "Lending" forum can't sticky unregistered securities that derive their value from a Scammer named Trendon from Texas, just because the head moderator has a BTC interest in it.

This shit is bigger than making a few quick coins from a known scammer.  The leaders of this forum must be better than that...


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September 03, 2012, 06:06:55 AM
 #33

Which stickies in the lending forum are you referring to again?
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September 03, 2012, 06:19:18 AM
 #34

Which stickies in the lending forum are you referring to again?

1) when all of these borrowing at high % scams were under "Lending" a handful of them were stickied.  a PPT was among them, I think BurtW's but I do not remember for sure.

2) Currently in the shameful & misnamed "Long Term Offers" section, there exists this sticky:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=81542.0   which is the PatrickHarnett (another schemer) sticky of "Who pays what"  - it is nothing but a list of current Ponzis.  He is a well respected member (to those that cannot see through the 1% per week scam, which should be obvious, but obviously is not to most of this forum's users) and gives an "A-" credit rating for a 3% per week paying "RustyRyan" borrowing scam.  He uses tables and makes it look nice.  But of course, this is just another stickied advertisement for the HYIP scammers and holy shit is it effective.  This is the main bitcoin forum remember - this users Patrick has 1000's of posts and Hero super-member status with a stickied thread - it appears totally legitimate to the newbie not scared by 1%/wk... or 3%/wk... but at least we can agree at this point 7%/wk is a scam?  Ok let's see how low we can go. (hint:  we're not close yet - ask any CPA / Accountant / Bank teller)

3) oddly enough, almost admitting to save face in the future, this thread "how to identify a Ponzi" is also stickied - the only 2 threads stickied there, and the views and pages of "WPW" far exceeds the Ponzi-identifier.  It's like the mods know these borrowing programs are all scams - but instead of working to stop the culture of scams they take part in them and give them max-effectiveness free advertising while putting up a postage stamp sized warning label so after the scams go belly up the mods can claim we warned you.



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Bitcoin Oz
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September 03, 2012, 06:28:37 AM
 #35

Bitcointalk shouldnt be actively promoting or encouraging HYIP schemes.

The forum doesn't promote anything. This is a platform for discussion.



You shouldnt be seen to be engaging in shady activities as it undermines your position. Its the same reason Nefario doesnt invest in any securities on GLBSE. If there was a drug board on here it would be like putting dread pirate roberts in charge.

If it turns out pirate was running a ponzi scheme how can you adjudicate things with such a conflict of interest ?

The fact you have financially benefitted from the situation makes that impossible. Perhaps it would be better if someone who is impartial could take over the lending section or even remove it entirely from the forum.

You should listen to Gavin imo.





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September 03, 2012, 11:28:33 AM
 #36

Utterly disgraceful.

I know, what a dick, letting people make their own choices.

Quote
3) oddly enough, almost admitting to save face in the future, this thread "how to identify a Ponzi" is also stickied - the only 2 threads stickied there, and the views and pages of "WPW" far exceeds the Ponzi-identifier...

I don't see how it's odd at all, it's pretty consistent with giving people the information they need and letting them decide what they want to do with their money. As for one having more views than the other, well one has been up for ~4 months, the other for 3 weeks.


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Bitcoin Oz
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September 03, 2012, 11:30:25 AM
 #37

Utterly disgraceful.

I know, what a dick, letting people make their own choices.

Quote
3) oddly enough, almost admitting to save face in the future, this thread "how to identify a Ponzi" is also stickied - the only 2 threads stickied there, and the views and pages of "WPW" far exceeds the Ponzi-identifier...

I don't see how it's odd at all, it's pretty consistent with giving people the information they need and letting them decide what they want to do with their money. As for one having more views than the other, well one has been up for ~4 months, the other for 3 weeks.



Giving people the info is a lot different than actively participating in such a scheme  Smiley

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September 03, 2012, 11:32:59 AM
 #38

Utterly disgraceful.

I know, what a dick, letting people make their own choices.

Quote
3) oddly enough, almost admitting to save face in the future, this thread "how to identify a Ponzi" is also stickied - the only 2 threads stickied there, and the views and pages of "WPW" far exceeds the Ponzi-identifier...

I don't see how it's odd at all, it's pretty consistent with giving people the information they need and letting them decide what they want to do with their money. As for one having more views than the other, well one has been up for ~4 months, the other for 3 weeks.



Giving people the info is a lot different than actively participating in such a scheme  Smiley

I don't.

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EhVedadoOAnonimato
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September 03, 2012, 12:01:05 PM
 #39

Every time I see a thread like this I feel comfortable knowing theymos is in charge of these forums.
It's hard to find such a neutral, "non-interference" person. I'm not sure I myself would manage to remain always impartial like this.

Satoshi was wise even in the choice of who to put in charge of the forum. Smiley Thank you sir!

Concerning the topic, honestly, I'd just merge everything back to the Lending board. It's not the job of these boards to filter what's risky from what's not. Add a big caveat emperor sticky topic to prevent everyone and that's enough, IMHO.
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September 03, 2012, 12:04:25 PM
 #40

Utterly disgraceful.

I know, what a dick, letting people make their own choices.

Cheesy
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